United States of the Americas and Oceania

[Eurofed]

ITTL that's true for California, Hispaniola (Dominic), Peru and Guyana, but not true for the Republic of Texas (which was divided into Texas, Madison, Crockett or Arnold) or the Republic of Rio Grande (which was divided into Cohauila and Tampico). I guess it depends on how tightly-knit the various regions were, and the circumstances of their division.

Exactly. Moreover, my research about the issue of state borders showed that states' names and borders were subject to a series of butterflies that could easily yield significantly different results with little divergence. You may see that in USAO and VLR (closely related TLs that essentially diverge only about the evolution of Europe between very different hegemons) re. the names of OTL southern Ontario and Quebec: they become Franklin and Quebec in the former, South Canada and North Canada in the former. E.g. in USAO I purposefully wanted to expand the tradition of names states after Founding Fathers, for various reasons. I short I think this is an area where butterflies give ample leeway for the authors to choose.

However, I have to state that I'm reconsidering the whole sequence of state entries for the revision, and something is likely to end up different than the original.

Regarding Cumberland: IOTL we had an unsuccessful attempt to make a separate state of Franklin in several counties which now comprise eastern Tennessee; this was suppressed by the North Carolina government before the eventual formation of the state Tennessee. However, ITTL it's plausible that residents in those counties had more independent leanings, and with no prior failures at secession from their parent state, maybe they wanted to create a newly-named state rather than simply be labeled as a cardinal designation of Tennessee. That, along with the difference in geography and terrain, could make for a different mindset.

Good argument.

Regarding Vandalia: Okay, maybe that's simply a butterfly. On the other hand, maybe ITTL there were more immigrants from Poland or the eastern parts of Germany, who would have found an affinity with the name (being descended distantly from the original Vandals) and this kept the state from being named West Virginia.

The only difficulty I might perceive with the name is that it has rather negative connotations IOTL due to "vandalism". Yet, there was an historical effort in the 1770s to set up a colony in the region named Vandalia, which may be revived in TTL 1857, when WV breaks away. However, the latter term arose with the French Revolution. I just have to pick a TTL different name to label the senseless destruction of beauty and culture: "gothism" may be a worthwhile alternative.

I still think a separate Acadia (i.e. the mainland portion of Nova Scotia) is plausible as well, after the conclusion of the ACW. Let's assume that a sizable number of the Francophone descendants of the original Acadians (who relocated to Louisiana during the Great Upheaval) got tired of being in the middle of the battles of the Civil War, and decided to move back to the "original" Acadia which had been subsumed by Nova Scotia at the time. Could that have tipped the balance? Only Eurofed can say for sure.

If one checks the thread at length, you may surmise that I always was a bit uncertain about the timing of separate statehood for Acadia. For the revision, I'm tentatively leaning towards letting them join the Union with Maine,in the place of St. Laurent. But this also depends on which and how many Caribbean states join the Union after the War of 1812 and after the ACW (that pesky keeping a rough balance between free and slave states).

Back on the subject of maps. I've got the interactive "clickable" maps for 1808, 1811 and 1816 posted at my website, here:

http://www.gerb.ws/cartography/alternate/USAO_interactive/

Comments and feedback are welcome. I'm going to keep this up and eventually get through all the other maps issued so far.

You are doing a truly great job. My abundant praise. I'm only amused that some details from the original version might become obsolete after the revision (e.g. the description of the PoD is likely going to change to match the one in VLR).

 

[Van555]

does that mean that its coming back soon?

 

[Eurofed]

does that mean that its coming back soon?

In all likelihood it is, but (at least for the moment) in the form of a revision rather than an expansion. There are too many bits of the early TL that have grown unsatisfactory to my older, more experienced AH buff self.

 

[Eurofed]

The revised version of the TL is up here, at the moment up to 1816, but we can continue to use this thread for discussion if you please.

Most of the changes I felt necessary concerned the first part of the TL, where some elements had grown jarring in my later, more experienced judgement, but I mean to complete revision up to story-current 1861, amking those changies that I feel more realistic, interesting, useful for story purposes, or necessary because of previous ones.

 

[Eurofed]

What are you planning to change?

Oh, little things here and there. The basic shape of the story is solid, and is going to stay, but there were some bits that I'd grown unsatisfied of, especially at the beginning, like the settlement of Haiti, or the fact that a fundamental butterfly like the assimilationist policy of the US was only retconned in the story at the middle.

The one complaint I really have with the original is that the expansion against Brazil seemed a little unusual, geographically - especially after the 1860s war.

Well, I'll re-examine them when I get to the 1857-61 war. Do you have any alternative suggestion for that peace settlement ? I hope that the 1815 border makes sense, given that it is based on the Amazon river line.

And Russia's direct annexations from Turkey after the last war were a little unusual, too - they made neither geographic nor ethnographic sense.

Well, the Russian annexations from Turkey in 1819 and 1861 are based on the Six Armenian Vilayets, the ones that had a substantial Armenian populations, and Russia and the Entente somehow ment to set up as an Armenian state during and after WWI, plus Trabzon thrown in for geographic continuity. I thought it was a decent basis to define Russian annexations, which happens in two stages, the Russians first grab the three Vilayets (Erzerum, Van, Bilitis) closest to the Caucasus in 1817-19 plus Trabzon. Then they annex the other three (Divarbekir, Sivas, and Harput) in the 1857-61 war. What are your objections based on ?

 

[mikegold]

Well, the Russian annexations from Turkey in 1819 and 1861 are based on the Six Armenian Vilayets, the ones that had a substantial Armenian populations, and Russia and the Entente somehow ment to set up as an Armenian state during and after WWI, plus Trabzon thrown in for geographic continuity. I thought it was a decent basis to define Russian annexations, which happens in two stages, the Russians first grab the three Vilayets (Erzerum, Van, Bilitis) closest to the Caucasus in 1817-19 plus Trabzon. Then they annex the other three (Divarbekir, Sivas, and Harput) in the 1857-61 war. What are your objections based on ?

Shows what I know... that makes more sense. Cool then!

Well, I'll re-examine them when I get to the 1857-61 war. Do you have any alternative suggestion for that peace settlement ? I hope that the 1815 border makes sense, given that it is based on the Amazon river line.

No, I thought the Amazon border was awesome actually. Do you have a similar basis for the Brazillian settlement in 1861? I'm hardly an expert but it looks like just strange chunks... In my mind, annexation of either the Southern or Northern states en bloc might make more sense.

 

[Eurofed]

Spent some idle time at work reading this I like the flow of it, but one question I've got is why did Sweden get Norway? Did Sweden join the war on Prussia & Russia's side? Seems unlikely given that Russia just grabbed the eastern 3rd of the kingdom...

Sweden got Norway from Denmark pretty much the same way than OTL, it is not influenced since these events unfold just before or close to the main European divergence. As you point out, Sweden at this point is neutral in the main conflict in Europe ans busy conquering and assimilating Norway, Prussia and Russia have no reason to involve it. The only way this could be wrapped in the main European conflict is if Britain would intervene on the side of Norway, but I think it would be unlikely.

The British already have a war with America they are losing, another war on the continent which looks far from easy, even before the return of Napoleon screws it beyond repair, and a British South America that is not yet really pacified. Adding a fourth theater seems rather foolhardy. And even if Britain does it, the net effect would be that Sweden allies with Prussia and Russia, the war expands to Denmark one way or another, and Scandinavian unification happens a few decades earlier than scheduled. But I'm skeptical that Britain would intervene, IOTL they let Sweden conquer Norway without a fuss, also because Denmark was an ally of Napoleon, and they let that outcome stand afterwards. What reason they would have to change their mind ITTL where they are in a much more difficult situation ?

 

[Marcus Licinius Crassus]

Love the story Euro. Only thing that made me unhappy as a Haitian American was the fact the glorious Haitian revolution was crushed by the Americans. . Nonetheless you seem to be unsatisfied with Haiti being a settlement. I was thinking for the rewrite that you make the newly independent slave nation into a protectorate of the US. They can have their own militia force supported by US troops,but can trade with the US because of its massive resources in sugar,coffee,tobacco,and its vast plantation lands.Then it can become like a US territory or US dominion like Canada is OTL. Toussaint never wanted Haiti to be fully independent from France. All he wanted was the slaves to be free and have Dominion status from France. That is just one idea I came up with.

But on this time line will you have the Indians embolden by the Sepoy rebellion have a "revolutionary war" of independence that have Britain defeated and humiliated and its power declining?

Now Reconstruction I read that you were planning to have blacks in the south having Civil Rights earlier then wait another 100 yrs for it. This means there would be no segregation and the right to vote. That is a good start. Problem is southern backlash. The problem with Reconstruction in OTL was that the occupation of the South was too fast,and left the south to pass black codes. In your story there could be a prolonged occupation of the south. For about 40-50 years.However a prolonged south occupation will lead to paramilitary white groups fighting low level guerrilla war for the occupation period. This will keep the Union occupied for a long time. Or I have read Lincoln wanted African American slaves to colonized into Central America. So you can have former black slaves leaving the south in droves to move into Central America or South America. This could change demographics of the superstate. Great story any way Eurofed.

 

[Eurofed]

Love the story Euro. Only thing that made me unhappy as a Haitian American was the fact the glorious Haitian revolution was crushed by the Americans. . Nonetheless you seem to be unsatisfied with Haiti being a settlement. I was thinking for the rewrite that you make the newly independent slave nation into a protectorate of the US. They can have their own militia force supported by US troops,but can trade with the US because of its massive resources in sugar,coffee,tobacco,and its vast plantation lands.Then it can become like a US territory or US dominion like Canada is OTL. Toussaint never wanted Haiti to be fully independent from France. All he wanted was the slaves to be free and have Dominion status from France. That is just one idea I came up with.

As a matter of fact, I have significantly changed the status of Haiti in the rewrite (that has already started). As you indeed noticed, the status of Haiti (and the Caribbean in general) pre-ACW was one of the old version's aspects I was most unhappy with. Now, Haiti survives as an independent republic, somewhat in the US sphere of influence but not quite a satellite since political bad feelings between Haiti and Dixie force the US government to keep the island somewhat at arm's length (even if they indeed trade). In the new version, the place of Hispaniola as a Dixie US territory is taken by Cuba. I do plan to let Haiti gain US statehood after the turmoil of the ACW.

But on this time line will you have the Indians embolden by the Sepoy rebellion have a "revolutionary war" of independence that have Britain defeated and humiliated and its power declining?

Eventually, ITTL the British Empire shall be cast down and independent India shall blaze its path to great power status, but I'm still doubtful that even in the new version, the BE is already weakened enough by the ACW/*WWI that the Sepoys shall be successful. Sooner or later, the Limeys shall have their Gotterdammerung.

Now Reconstruction I read that you were planning to have blacks in the south having Civil Rights earlier then wait another 100 yrs for it. This means there would be no segregation and the right to vote. That is a good start. Problem is southern backlash. The problem with Reconstruction in OTL was that the occupation of the South was too fast,and left the south to pass black codes. In your story there could be a prolonged occupation of the south. For about 40-50 years.However a prolonged south occupation will lead to paramilitary white groups fighting low level guerrilla war for the occupation period. This will keep the Union occupied for a long time. Or I have read Lincoln wanted African American slaves to colonized into Central America. So you can have former black slaves leaving the south in droves to move into Central America or South America. This could change demographics of the superstate. Great story any way Eurofed.

I do plan for the Reconstruction to be a time of great social upheaval and domestic housecleaning in the US, with the parallel end of the peonage system for the Latin American Indian lower classes and the killing in the crib of Jim Crow for the Southern Blacks. My basic idea is that the federal government makes a deal with the Southern poor whites, trading generous Marshall Plan-like economic relief for the Southern economy with good-faith support for reintegration within the union and desegregation. The Unionists also use a good deal of military pressure the root out the KKK paramilitary white groups, longer and more decisively than OTL. The combination of economic relief and military repression wins enough whites to the Union's cause that the segregationists don't achieve "critical mass" and their OTL restoration never happens. A similar process is deployed to emancipate the peones in the Latin American states and territories. Since ITTL the ACW becomes an even bigger and bloodier conflict than OTL, with the partecipation of the European powers, racism comes to be loathed by the Union even more than OTL, as an enemy ideology, and a more decisive effort is done to eradicate it.

I have not yet decided how many blacks and Hispanics shall undergo internal migration, and which direction they shall take, but some internal migration shall surely happen, even if others shall stay in place. You are quite correct that it is going to be a somewhat lengthy, difficult, and painful process, which is going to absorb most of the energies of the US superstate and make it turn inward for a long while. IMO at least a generation to a generation and half. Two generations, however, might be a bit too much IMO.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words and the useful suggestions. Let me know your opinion about the revised version, too.

 

[MadMaper 13]

Great time line

Would the British still have the Falkland island (with BSA i assume almost definitely) and when they lose BSA would the island go with it or would Briton keep hold of it when the US eventually gets the whole continent

 

[Eurofed]

Would the British still have the Falkland island (with BSA i assume almost definitely) and when they lose BSA would the island go with it or would Briton keep hold of it when the US eventually gets the whole continent

I see no plausible reason why a victorious USA would leave Britain the Falkland Islands, a strategically valuable position close to their coast, when they get Patagonia after the rematch.

 

[Astronomo2010]

very good timeline, if you take this to the 20 century, WWII , the Nazis will think twice before starting war, whit a giant colossus like USA, the IIIrd Reich wont stand a chance is war is declared

 

[Turquoise Blue]

very good timeline, if you take this to the 20 century, WWII , the Nazis will think twice before starting war, whit a giant colossus like USA, the IIIrd Reich wont stand a chance is war is declared

Sigh... The Nazis will not exist. There could be a Nazi-analogue in Europe, yes, but not the Nazis themselves. There could be a World War yes, even maybe another one, but it will not be one with the Nazis.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

very good timeline, if you take this to the 20 century, WWII , the Nazis will think twice before starting war, whit a giant colossus like USA, the IIIrd Reich wont stand a chance is war is declared

What the hell do Nazi's have to do with this timeline?????

 

[Astronomo2010]

well, its just an option, if the great depression of the 20´s happends, maybe fascism and Nazism may happend.

 

[Eurofed]

Well, it is pretty much sure that there is going to be another World War within the next generation, which shall be the endgame between the USA & the CP block on one side, and the Anglo-French-Iberians on the other side. Everything so far has been gearing up for that, and the purpose of the story requires it. There is some uncertainty on which stance Russia shall take in the next conflict, it may stick with its former allies, stay neutral, or (gasp) switch sides. Likewise, it is not yet sure which side Japan and China shall take in the next conflict, if any. Given TTL technological acceleration, if it happens in TTL 1890s it shall be fought with OTL 1910s technology, and so on.

After that, it is possible, but far from certain, that there might be a third World War, again after the usual "rest for 20 years" generational cycle, between the new superpowers of America, Russia, and CP-ruled united Europe, IF they get antagonistic and belligerant enough. By then, the British Empire shall have been wiped out, so Britain may or may not still be revanchist, but it would be a secondary player anyway. France and Iberia shall in all likelihood be chastised enough to learn their lesson and be absorbed in CP-ruled united Europe. It's too far to speculate which role Japan, China, and India may take in that conflict.

As it concerns the appearance of fascism ITTL, there is absolutely no good reason why it would ever take over in Germany or Italy. They have got, and are going to reap, far too much success for that.

A right-wing monarchist regime with some proto-fascist features has already taken over in France (and it shall likely absorb Iberia into a union soon), and it shall ride France-Iberia to its revanchist doom in the next conflict, so those countries are already accounted for in this regard.

It is certainly possible that TTL Britain may fall to a fascism-analogue in the future, they are in for suffering humiliation enough, but again, after they lose their empire, they are not going to have the resources to mount another assault on the USA or CP-ruled Europe.

It is also possible, but less likely, that it may happen in Russia, given its more troublesome path to modernization, and the possibility that it may pick the wrong side and lose a world war in the future.

As it concerns Japan, China, and India, it is far too early to tell.

 

[Libertad]

WOW...!

[FONT=&quot]Eurofed… [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Let me give you my deepest congratulations for creating the Greatest Alternate United States that was ever made IMO… Hehehe… You just made a great fan out of me that I’ve finally decided to not just wait for developments in here and not do anything… And with your amazing work, I’m finally compelled to join you… with your other contributors…. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Hahaha… Please not waver on this endeavor and continue this to the very end… [/FONT][FONT=&quot]We’re here to support you…. And just like what Writer’s Block said… This is a timeline that is begging to be filled with culture, arts, architecture, music and every other details … And I’m now planning to join in doing these additions… with the permission of President Eurofed of course… HAHAHA… [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To be honest, since being exposed to this literary genre and entertainment, I’m actually planning to make my own USA timeline but I’ve just decided to look to many alternate history creations out there about the Great United States… And thank goodness! I’ve found you and this work… GREAT JOB! I’ve been dreaming a lot of living in this place lately…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Anyway…..[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]PLEASE ACCEPT MY ENTRANCE TO THIS USAO COMMUNITY AS A CONTRIBUTOR… THANKS…! [/FONT]

 

[Libertad]

I also want to ask you if you are going to be post in the future only in the version 2.0 or both here in this original thread and the version 2.0...,

I also suggest that you put below your advertisement of your works: "The United States of the Americas and Oceania" and the "Long Night Falls" your version 2.0 so that others who might not know about this great work of yours with the revisions and everything can see it...

Hehehe... Thanks...

 

[Libertad]

Out of my fanaticism to your timeline... I've already posted a lot in the version 2.0...., Questions and Suggestions... and everything... since I've been reading it for a while.... It's not that much...Hahaha...