Union and Liberty: An American TL

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Yep, the armies are going to be meeting somewhere, but where? ;)

Washington DC

just a technical question. if the Mexican War happens 10 years earlier how do the generals get there experience? My understanding was all the Generals of the ACW were junior officers in the mexican war would timeline make it so they were youngsters or in the academy? besides as I read it the mexican war seemed to be a limited affair with no mass movements of troops same as the Oregon war? not trying to steal your thunder just had down time at work and I started thinking on the topic. keep this going:)
 
Yep, the armies are going to be meeting somewhere, but where? ;)

Washington DC

just a technical question. if the Mexican War happens 10 years earlier how do the generals get there experience? My understanding was all the Generals of the ACW were junior officers in the mexican war would timeline make it so they were youngsters or in the academy? besides as I read it the mexican war seemed to be a limited affair with no mass movements of troops same as the Oregon war? not trying to steal your thunder just had down time at work and I started thinking on the topic. keep this going:)

Just speculation on my part, but I'd say they gained their experience in TTL's Oregon War.
 
Yep, the armies are going to be meeting somewhere, but where? ;)

Washington DC

just a technical question. if the Mexican War happens 10 years earlier how do the generals get there experience? My understanding was all the Generals of the ACW were junior officers in the mexican war would timeline make it so they were youngsters or in the academy? besides as I read it the mexican war seemed to be a limited affair with no mass movements of troops same as the Oregon war? not trying to steal your thunder just had down time at work and I started thinking on the topic. keep this going:)

Just speculation on my part, but I'd say they gained their experience in TTL's Oregon War.

There was also that volunteer effort in the Piratini Independence, but that was even earlier than the Mexican war.

It could also be that they simply have less experience. Besides they can learn on the go. After all it is clear that this Civil War is quite a bit more chaotic than OTLs. Having less experience basically just adds to this.
 
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Part Thirty-Three: The Battle of Cincinatti
Not DC, but a city perhaps just as important to the nation. ;) And since I can't edit part 32 anymore, the second section of the Cumberland Campaign will be a new part.

Part Thirty-Three: The Battle of Cincinatti

After being diverted at Danville, Longstreet swung the Army of the Carolinas to the east and back north. Longstreet reached Lexington on the 11th of May, and after a day in the city, continued north. General Buell and the Army of the Wabash continued to trail behind. Buell lost Longstreet after Lexington when the Army of the Carolinas continued north along the railroad line but Buell led the Army of the Wabash along the right bank of the Kentucky River. After a week and a half of marching, Longstreet met up with Forrest south of Covington and Newport in Kentucky on the 24th of May. While the meetup of the two forces was unanticipated, Buell was able to relay the general direction of Longstreet's army up to the Union and a set of fortifications were hastily set up south of the two cities.

The Army of the Carolinas had followed the Licking River north and met up with Forrest at Leitch's Station[1]. The Union defenses south of the Ohio River were weak, but there was still a string of forts in the way. On the 27th of May, Forrest and the third corps of the Army of the Carolinas took Fort Whittlesey[2] in the east. Meanwhile, the first corps of Longstreet's army sneaked across the Licking River once more and surprised the battery at Fort Wright. By June, the two nearest forts had been taken and Longstreet and Forrest were free to advance the final miles to the Ohio River. Covington and Newport, then the second and third largest cities in Kentucky, were taken in days as many had already fled across the river to Cincinnati.

On June 4th the final battery south of the Ohio in Ludlow was captured by the Confederates, and Longstreet and Forrest began planning to cross north into Cincinnati. On the 7th, they crossed the two bends in the River on either side of Cincinnati and encircled the city. The city militia lasted for five days with the toughest fighting east of the city at Mount Adams before Cincinnati was taken by the Confederacy. Cincinnati was only held for three days before the Army of the Wabash and the Army of the Ohio reached the outskirts of the city.

Longstreet and Forrest set up quick fortifications and batteries along the edges of Cincinnati, specifically on Mount Adams and Mount Auburn in the east and along Mill Creek in the west and north. Buell's forces were encamped at the bluffs to the west of Mill Creek while the Army of the Ohio led by Ulysses S. Grant was positioned to the northeast of Mount Auburn in Walnut Hills. On the 12th of June, Buell began using the artillery to bombard the Confederate lines across Mill Creek, using the higher ground to his advantage. In the afternoon, Buell's forces charged the Confederate positions as Grant moved the Army of the Ohio south toward Mount Auburn. While Longstreet managed to hold back the Union forces from crossing Mill Creek, Grant successfully took Mount Auburn. Grant's forces were about to cut off the fortifications at Mount Adams when Longstreet diverted some of his northern flank to distract Grant's army while Forrest was able to move into the center of Cincinnati.

The battle wore on for the next six days in the city, but the Union was slowly gaining ground. On June 20th, it became clear that the Confederates could not hold the city for much longer. Longstreet and Forrest gave orders to evacuate across the Ohio while ransacking as much of the city as possible. In the end, the devastation caused by the battle would affect Cincinnati for decades. The population of the city was reduced from 170,000 in 1860 to less than 100,000 in 1870[3]. Longstreet and Forrest continued a spirited defense at the southern bank of the Ohio, and were only pushed back by the end of July after Forrest had to return to Virginia after a Union offensive there.

[1] Wilder, KY
[2] Fort Thomas, KY
[3] Not sure if these are realistic figures for the Civil War era
 
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Just speculation on my part, but I'd say they gained their experience in TTL's Oregon War.

There was also that volunteer effort in the Piratini Independence, but that was even earlier than the Mexican war.

It could also be that they simply have less experience. Besides they can learn on the go. After all it is clear that this Civil War is quite a bit more chaotic than OTLs. Having less experience basically just adds to this.
You guys are pretty much correct. Either they gained experience in the Oregon War or they have less experience than OTL.

Also, I finally got a map done for this. :D One note, Furnace in update 32 is supposed to be Scunthorpe, and I forgot to mark the battle there on the map.

Cumberland Campaign.png
 
Just a couple comments now that I've reread through the whole thing:

- I'm fucking excited for W.S. Hancock as President. Props, wilcox.

- Again, interesting to see where California is going to go. I'm personally crossing my fingers for an eternally independent Californian nation. Though I can foresee some racist difficulties in the future.

- The Mormons. It was part of your sig for a while and it's an interesting butterfly. Have we seen the last of them? Will the British Empire have their own Manitoba War?

- Lincoln was always a lawyer first an a politician next. Him becoming a Supreme Court Justice makes more sense to me than him becoming President. Could we get a bio on his career? How a lowly Illinois lawyer became leader of the highest court in the land?

- Cuba and Calhoun make sense to me in their decisions to secede, but I'm still wondering how Houston managed not to secede. Tejas seems pro-Union, but I feel like Houston is too southern to be against secession. After all, in OTL Houston himself was almost arrested for being a traitor to his state (how ironic). Even if Houston joined and Tejas stayed, it's still worth noting how the CSA won't have a Mexican border which was significant in OTL for the CSA to smuggle arms across the border. Is that set off ITTL with a stronger Confederate naval front?

- I think the definition of a Civil War is just when a country goes to war with itself. So either way, this IS a Civil War. Although by the looks of it, the states that remain in the Union are probably going to have more autonomy than did OTL states after the Civil War. Which leads me to the question that since Oregon is just a territory, and virtually federally controlled, how can they declare Neutrality? Pembina or Illinois (for example) seem like they would have more justification given that they're full-on states.

- Back to the naming issue, while I still see it called "The Civil War," given that it escalated almost immediately over President Houston's death, it'd most likely be called universally as "The Secession War." Otherwise for more violent terms, "Mr. Lincoln's War" since one could argue it was the Chief who started it.

And just a list of Presidents since it'll be useful at this point:

1. George Washington (No Party) 1789-1793
2. John Adams (Federalist) 1793-1801
3. Thomas Jefferson (Democratic-Republican) 1801-1809
4. James Madison (D-R) 1809-1817
5. James Monroe (D-R) 1817-1825
6. John Quincy Adams (D-R) 1825-1829
7. Andrew Jackson (Democrat) 1829-1835*
8. John C. Calhoun (Democrat) 1835-1841
9. William H. Harrison (Whig) 1841-1845
10. James K. Polk (Democrat) 1845-1849
11. Winfield Scott (Whig) 1849-1853
12. Stephen Douglas (Democrat) 1853-1857
13. Samuel Houston (Democrat) 1857-1862*
14. Andrew Johnson (Democrat) 1862-

*Assassinated
 
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Thanks for the comments SilverPhantom! I'll try to answer your questions here.

First, you haven't seen the last of the Mormons yet. ;)

I might do a bio of Lincoln, although I'm trying to space the Great Men out a bit, and I haven't decided if I want to do bios for both Houston and Lincoln yet. I'll probably do one for him eventually though.

While Houston didn't secede, there have been some uprisings in the state. IIRC I mentioned one in Dallas, but they don't really amount to much. And the CSA not having a Mexican border in Texas is partially made up for by the greater naval presence in the Gulf and Veracruz.

I've always thought a civil war was only when two factions claimed themselves the legitimate ruler of that country. As the CSA still has secession as its goal, it wouldn't strictly be a civil war. I might rename it later depending on how the timeline goes, but right now I'm going to keep it the War Between the States.

Your list of presidents is correct, except for the years of Jackson's and Houston's assassinations. Jackson was in 1835, and Houston was in 1862. Otherwise it all looks good. :)


Oh, and I posted a bit more in the update. Either the next paragraph or the one after that should have the Union forces arrive.
 
I like the name "War of Southern Aggression". :) Their reasons for seceding in this timeline seem to be far less clear cut than in OTL -- pretty much the leaders of each state trying to grab a bit of extra power -- and heck, they even invaded Jackson.

I doubt it would catch on any more than the "War of Northern Aggression" caught on OTL, though. Loving this timeline still, by the way! :)
 
I absolutely love this timeline! Keep it going, its freakin awesome!

That said, with the lack of experience the General's have, do you expect to have TTL's Civil War more akin to the partisan fighting that Missouri saw in OTL's Civil War? I know there have been real serious battles already, but I am talking about the bigger picture. And do you think that the war will be longer or shorter because of this? Will that make it an even bloodier Civil War? :eek:
 
I like the name "War of Southern Aggression". :) Their reasons for seceding in this timeline seem to be far less clear cut than in OTL -- pretty much the leaders of each state trying to grab a bit of extra power -- and heck, they even invaded Jackson.

I doubt it would catch on any more than the "War of Northern Aggression" caught on OTL, though. Loving this timeline still, by the way! :)
Hehe, yeah, War of Southern Aggression does sound good, at least colloquially. :p And thanks!

I absolutely love this timeline! Keep it going, its freakin awesome!

That said, with the lack of experience the General's have, do you expect to have TTL's Civil War more akin to the partisan fighting that Missouri saw in OTL's Civil War? I know there have been real serious battles already, but I am talking about the bigger picture. And do you think that the war will be longer or shorter because of this? Will that make it an even bloodier Civil War? :eek:
Yeah, there will probably be more disorganized fighting than in the OTL Cvil War, especially during these early years. The Cumberland Campaign is the first 'real' campaign of the war, and obviously the Union wasn't quite ready for it.


Added another bit to the Battle of Cincinnati. Yes that last section is short right now, because I'm trying to decide how it will play out. :D For now, here's a map of what the fortifications look like in the area. Blue is the Southern Defense that the Confederates took on their way to the city, and gray is the defenses that Longstreet and Forrest set up around Cincinnati. Stars are the bigger forts while lines are more just batteries and such.

BattleofCincinnati2.png


Yes, I'm using Google Maps to look at the terrain. Sure some parts have been smoothed or flattened since then, but it's good for the general topology of an area.
 
Hehe, yeah, War of Southern Aggression does sound good, at least colloquially. :p And thanks!

Yeah, there will probably be more disorganized fighting than in the OTL Cvil War, especially during these early years. The Cumberland Campaign is the first 'real' campaign of the war, and obviously the Union wasn't quite ready for it.


Added another bit to the Battle of Cincinnati. Yes that last section is short right now, because I'm trying to decide how it will play out. :D For now, here's a map of what the fortifications look like in the area. Blue is the Southern Defense that the Confederates took on their way to the city, and gray is the defenses that Longstreet and Forrest set up around Cincinnati. Stars are the bigger forts while lines are more just batteries and such.

BattleofCincinnati2.png


Yes, I'm using Google Maps to look at the terrain. Sure some parts have been smoothed or flattened since then, but it's good for the general topology of an area.

No wonder Forrest always got there "firstest with the mostest", he's marching down I-75!! :eek:
 
First, you haven't seen the last of the Mormons yet. ;)

:eek:

I might do a bio of Lincoln, although I'm trying to space the Great Men out a bit, and I haven't decided if I want to do bios for both Houston and Lincoln yet. I'll probably do one for him eventually though.

Sounds like a plan.

While Houston didn't secede, there have been some uprisings in the state. IIRC I mentioned one in Dallas, but they don't really amount to much. And the CSA not having a Mexican border in Texas is partially made up for by the greater naval presence in the Gulf and Veracruz.

As seems to be suspected. Still, I found Houston's lack of secession surprising. Also, it seems the Hispanic question is going to be fairly prominent in the future. Tejas and Jackson appear to be very Hispanic states, Jackson I believe had a Spanish governor at one point?

I've always thought a civil war was only when two factions claimed themselves the legitimate ruler of that country. As the CSA still has secession as its goal, it wouldn't strictly be a civil war. I might rename it later depending on how the timeline goes, but right now I'm going to keep it the War Between the States.

Well, the OTL CSA just wanted to be left alone. They hadn't claimed Washington or declared themselves to be the rightful government. I suppose whenever a Rebellion fails it's always a Civil War, whenever it succeeds, it's a Revolution.

Wikipedia defines it as: a war between organized groups within a single nation state, or, less commonly, between two nations created from a formerly-united nation state. The aim of one side may be to take control of the nation or a region, to achieve independence for a region, or to change government policies. It is high-intensity conflict, often involving regular armed forces, that is sustained, organized and large-scale. Civil wars result in large numbers of casualties and the consumption of large resources.

Your list of presidents is correct, except for the years of Jackson's and Houston's assassinations. Jackson was in 1835, and Houston was in 1862. Otherwise it all looks good. :)

Whoops. I read Houston as assassinated December 1861. I'll change them.
 
Just an idea to put on the table. Will Lincoln in the future pull a Taft and be the first person to hold both the offices of Presidency and Justice? That would mean he'd need to resign as Justice but I don't see it as implausible. Maybe as a Reconstruction President? That would be REALLY cool. Then you could maybe mirror his after war policies he couldn't get to in OTL because of those unfortunate circumstances.
 
Final part of the update is up.

I truly enjoy this timeline. I cannot wait to see how you continue.
Thanks!

No wonder Forrest always got there "firstest with the mostest", he's marching down I-75!! :eek:
:D Yeah, finding a map with just the terrain on it was too hard.

As seems to be suspected. Still, I found Houston's lack of secession surprising. Also, it seems the Hispanic question is going to be fairly prominent in the future. Tejas and Jackson appear to be very Hispanic states, Jackson I believe had a Spanish governor at one point?

Well, the OTL CSA just wanted to be left alone. They hadn't claimed Washington or declared themselves to be the rightful government. I suppose whenever a Rebellion fails it's always a Civil War, whenever it succeeds, it's a Revolution.
The Hispanic population will become an issue later, after the whole war thing gets over with. :D About the naming of the war, the CSA in TTL is also only claiming independence, not that they are the rightful US government.

Just an idea to put on the table. Will Lincoln in the future pull a Taft and be the first person to hold both the offices of Presidency and Justice? That would mean he'd need to resign as Justice but I don't see it as implausible. Maybe as a Reconstruction President? That would be REALLY cool. Then you could maybe mirror his after war policies he couldn't get to in OTL because of those unfortunate circumstances.
That's an interesting idea. Although with Lincoln in his spot as Supreme Couty Justice, I don't know if he would have had any political ambitions.
 
Just an idea to put on the table. Will Lincoln in the future pull a Taft and be the first person to hold both the offices of Presidency and Justice? That would mean he'd need to resign as Justice but I don't see it as implausible. Maybe as a Reconstruction President? That would be REALLY cool. Then you could maybe mirror his after war policies he couldn't get to in OTL because of those unfortunate circumstances.

I can't see Lincoln giving up a guaranteed gig in the SCOTUS for a distant and temporary POTUS spot myself. Lincoln wants to change the laws of the US, particularly Slavery and Dred Scott. Where he's at now he is more likely to be able to do so.

Taft went the other direction: his gig as POTUS was over and done for, so now he can retire to SCOTUS...which is the gig he wanted all along and only went the POTUS route at TR's insistence (Irony much? ;) ).
 
I can't see Lincoln giving up a guaranteed gig in the SCOTUS for a distant and temporary POTUS spot myself. Lincoln wants to change the laws of the US, particularly Slavery and Dred Scott. Where he's at now he is more likely to be able to do so.

Very true, it would just be pretty cool to have a Reconstruction-era Lincoln.
 
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I can't see Lincoln giving up a guaranteed gig in the SCOTUS for a distant and temporary POTUS spot myself. Lincoln wants to change the laws of the US, particularly Slavery and Dred Scott. Where he's at now he is more likely to be able to do so.

Taft went the other direction: his gig as POTUS was over and done for, so now he can retire to SCOTUS...which is the gig he wanted all along and only went the POTUS route at TR's insistence (Irony much? ;) ).

Very true, it would just be pretty cool to have a Reconstruction-era Lincoln.
Yeah, this is why I doubt Lincoln will become President. SCOTUS, especially chief justice, is just too good a job to pass up.
 
The Hispanic population will become an issue later, after the whole war thing gets over with.

I can get you the name of some good books/articles on the subject, especially in regards to Tejanos.

I do know from several personal accounts, of Chicano/as (Mexican-Americans) being sent to Indian Boarding schools (and her family where "Hispos" from New Mexico).

P.S.:Oh on another thought, I would look into the treatment of Puerto Ricans for ideas on Cuba as a state. I would say more then likely, the White/Mixed/Black/Indian Cubans would be lumped into one big racial category as in OTL, but I could see some blending of the White and Black Cubans into their US counterparts-with either the mixed people getting lumped in with Blacks for the most part, or possibly creating an actual mixed category nation wide within the whole of the US. This later development would be truly interesting in the progression of race relations of TTL's US.
 
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I can get you the name of some good books/articles on the subject, especially in regards to Tejanos.

I do know from several personal accounts, of Chicano/as (Mexican-Americans) being sent to Indian Boarding schools (and her family where "Hispos" from New Mexico).
That would be great! Thanks. :) Sadly, Wikipedia has been less than satisfactory on the topic.

P.S.:Oh on another thought, I would look into the treatment of Puerto Ricans for ideas on Cuba as a state. I would say more then likely, the White/Mixed/Black/Indian Cubans would be lumped into one big racial category as in OTL, but I could see some blending of the White and Black Cubans into their US counterparts-with either the mixed people getting lumped in with Blacks for the most part, or possibly creating an actual mixed category nation wide within the whole of the US. This later development would be truly interesting in the progression of race relations of TTL's US.
Hmmmm. A 'mixed' category in the US census would indeed be interesting. I'm also considering having the development of some sort of ethnic origin category in the census during the 20th century, not sure what purpose it would surve though.
 
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