Union and Liberty: An American TL

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Who says that there has to be a civil war and that 1860's is when it has to start?

Right now if I count correctly, there are 19 slave states and 18 free states.

OTL - the slavery debate over the expansion of slavery in the territory obtained from Mexico was the debate that led to the split in states.

ITTL - The next area for debate would be the New Mexico territory which could be divided into two terriotries, one free and one slave.

As the years go by and states become more industrialised, the cling to slavery will lesses. How many more years does Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia have in them?

The next war might be between the US against Cali or the US against Cali and Mexico. Or could the Mormons want to set up Deseret and the US use that to split up Cali and take the West coast while the Mormons are set up in their Deseret?
 
The major difference is that the government was a bit more willing to provide compensation or compromise to the Natve Americans. So instead of being forcefully removed, many were provided with compensation for the lands or were allowed to purchase land to settle on from the government. ITTL it was really only the Cherokee that ended up being forced to move west.

By now in the timeline, the tribes that moved west of their own accord have probably either remained in Calhoun despite settlers moving in or have moved again, probably to the sparsely populated southern New Mexico Territory.

It would be cool if this provides some cultural butterflies later on. Less of a removal means there is more interaction between white settlers and Natives.

Who says that there has to be a civil war and that 1860's is when it has to start?

Right now if I count correctly, there are 19 slave states and 18 free states.

OTL - the slavery debate over the expansion of slavery in the territory obtained from Mexico was the debate that led to the split in states.

ITTL - The next area for debate would be the New Mexico territory which could be divided into two terriotries, one free and one slave.

As the years go by and states become more industrialised, the cling to slavery will lesses. How many more years does Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia have in them?

The next war might be between the US against Cali or the US against Cali and Mexico. Or could the Mormons want to set up Deseret and the US use that to split up Cali and take the West coast while the Mormons are set up in their Deseret?

True and my guess is this will be a shorter or less bloodier Civil War if there is one. Wilcoxchar has hinted that the Houston administration has been excellent in compromise and balance so the Abolition War (seems like a nice name if it is smaller) might be delayed.

I think the idea of a Desseret secession from California is quite interesting (and very likely). But US expansionism and in Manifest Destiny is probably fulfilled by now. The Oregon War provided the need of a Pacific Coast and Cuba was also annexed. So I see little reason for the US moving further west.
I think the Rio Grande Rep. is much more likely to be annexed (although I hope it stays independent) as well as larger parts of the Caribbean because of Cuba. I don't think Spain is that interested in keeping Puerto Rico (that could be an easy purchase).
Maybe parts of Western Cali. but reaching the coast might be out of the question. After all Cali is pretty much an American protectorate, in which Britain probably has lots of interests and business with (as a way to replace the lost Oregon).
 
Also the *Dominican Republic. OTL the Grant administration (IIRC) considered buying it. With a foot in the Caribbean and no ATL hesitation on incorporating Hispanophone States it's a real possibility.

As to Slavery, there's always the possibility for a gradual manumisson policy ala Brazil. Chilrden born to Slaves after "18xx" are automatically free, perhaps some form of financial compensation for owners.

But considering what bloodthirsty bastards us AH.comers are, I expect WAR! :cool:
 
I think that America will mainly focus on the Caribbean in this TL maybe purchase the sparsely populated interior of California this may mean that Hawaii becomes British or even Japanese due to lack of interest in the Pacific on an other note hows life in Belgium California the Rio Grande Piratini and Voortrekker republics
 
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Who says that there has to be a civil war and that 1860's is when it has to start?

Right now if I count correctly, there are 19 slave states and 18 free states.

OTL - the slavery debate over the expansion of slavery in the territory obtained from Mexico was the debate that led to the split in states.

ITTL - The next area for debate would be the New Mexico territory which could be divided into two terriotries, one free and one slave.

As the years go by and states become more industrialised, the cling to slavery will lesses. How many more years does Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia have in them?

The next war might be between the US against Cali or the US against Cali and Mexico. Or could the Mormons want to set up Deseret and the US use that to split up Cali and take the West coast while the Mormons are set up in their Deseret?
True and my guess is this will be a shorter or less bloodier Civil War if there is one. Wilcoxchar has hinted that the Houston administration has been excellent in compromise and balance so the Abolition War (seems like a nice name if it is smaller) might be delayed.
As to Slavery, there's always the possibility for a gradual manumisson policy ala Brazil. Chilrden born to Slaves after "18xx" are automatically free, perhaps some form of financial compensation for owners.

But considering what bloodthirsty bastards us AH.comers are, I expect WAR! :cool:
War ftw! But on the topic of slavery, Delaware has already outlawed slavery, and despite Houston's radiating awesomeness, underlying tensions between the north and south are still high. For now though, it will take something big to set off a war. Mmmm, foreshadowing

It would be cool if this provides some cultural butterflies later on. Less of a removal means there is more interaction between white settlers and Natives.
Well, in a sense it has already provided with some butterflies with Chief Niwot allowing the original settlers of Ferroplano to stay instead of essentially saying, "Hi, welcome, now GTFO" as he did in OTL. Hmmm, I meant to put a footnote in about that, oh well. :p

I think the idea of a Desseret secession from California is quite interesting (and very likely). But US expansionism and in Manifest Destiny is probably fulfilled by now. The Oregon War provided the need of a Pacific Coast and Cuba was also annexed. So I see little reason for the US moving further west.
I think the Rio Grande Rep. is much more likely to be annexed (although I hope it stays independent) as well as larger parts of the Caribbean because of Cuba. I don't think Spain is that interested in keeping Puerto Rico (that could be an easy purchase).
Maybe parts of Western Cali. but reaching the coast might be out of the question. After all Cali is pretty much an American protectorate, in which Britain probably has lots of interests and business with (as a way to replace the lost Oregon).
Also the *Dominican Republic. OTL the Grant administration (IIRC) considered buying it. With a foot in the Caribbean and no ATL hesitation on incorporating Hispanophone States it's a real possibility.
I think that America will mainly focus on the Caribbean in this TL maybe purchase the sparsely populated interior of California this may mean that Hawaii becomes British or even Japanese due to lack of interest in the Pacific on an other note hows life in Belgium California the Rio Grande Piratini and Voortrekker republics
Debate about things the author knows and the audience doesn't know is always fun. Keep it rollin'. :D Those discussions on if/where the United States should look to expand are probably going on in Congress ITTL right now.

And funny you should mention Belgium, they're coming up in the next update.

Oh, I've also been toying with the little extra things that often appear in textbooks, like highlights of particular people and things like that. Only it's been a while since I had to read a history textbook so I can't remember much of what little bits were included. :p Anyone care to remind me? The only one I have for ideas now is a "Great Men" section on influential people.
 
I think this is an excellent time line. I particularly like the language map, but I have to say I have a minor quibble with it. The German belt probably should expand well into Marquette, with scattered spots of blue all throughout the plains. German immigrants were particularly attracted to WI in OTL due to similarities between it and germany's climate and geography, and Milwaukee acquired the moniker "the German American Athens" thanks to the size and vibrancy of its massive german population.
 
Oh, I've also been toying with the little extra things that often appear in textbooks, like highlights of particular people and things like that. Only it's been a while since I had to read a history textbook so I can't remember much of what little bits were included. :p Anyone care to remind me? The only one I have for ideas now is a "Great Men" section on influential people.

Great Men is a good one.
There is also usually one about art or so like a famous painting, artwork, music of the time, this would probably be neat section once movies come around (1889 if its as OTL).
Technology could be the other section.
 
Part Twenty-Seven: The Game is Afoot
Time for another update. Probably will be a while before the next one, since I'm going back to DC for school on Friday and I'll need to get settled in.

Part Twenty-Seven: The Game is Afoot

Final Collapse of Mexico:
Mexico had been dealing with internal strife almost constantly since the revolts that sparked the Texas Rebellion in 1835 and 1836. Struggles continued between centralists and federalists and other divisions in the country through the following decades as the government changed hands a number of times. In the 1850s, the government in Mexico City began to lose authority over the edges of the country. In 1858, the northern cities of Tuscon and Chihuahua kicked out federal officials. This proved to be prophetic for the history of Mexico, and within five years the country fell into anarchy and a full scale collapse of authority from the capital.

The chaos in Mexico lasted the better part of a decade. The many rebelling groups were mostly in the south of the country, however, and did not affect the north as much. The northern states quickly organized into the republics of Sonora and Chihuahua. In the south, unrest continued as federal soldiers quickly lost to rebel groups and goberitos[1]. After almost five years, southern Mexico finally organized itself into a group of smaller nations, roughly corresponding with states or groups of states from before the collapse. In the aftermath nine countries were created from Mexico: Sonora, Chihuahua, Durango, Queretaro, Granidalgo, Tlaxcala, Jalisco, and Oaxaca. The federal government remained in Mexico City and retained control over the federal district as well as the states of Morelos, Mexico, and Guerrero. The short-lived Maya Republic of Chiapas was soon divided between Oaxaca and Guatemala, which annexed the region of Los Altos, which had been part of the Federal Republic of Central America before that country's breakup.

With all the confusion, a group of Southern filibusters took advantage of the situation and made a landing in the village of Rio Banderas outside of Veracruz. The filibusters, led by former vice president Jefferson Davis, moved north and captured Veracruz in two months. Davis soon proclaimed himself Alcalde-General and made Laurence T. Buford his Tenente-Alcalde[2]. Veracruz was later caught in a dispute between Oaxaca and Tlaxcala and after mediation by the United States, the city became independent, and continued to be an important port in the Gulf of Mexico.


Beginnings of Colonialism:
The 1860s saw the beginning of a new wave of colonialism and imperialism for many European nations, this time focused on Asia and Africa. While the United States did not get involved aside from its good relations with Liberia, many European nations did. The initial wave of colonialism was led by the Belgians, the French, and the British.

Belgium had a history of colonies almost since the country first gained independence. As Borneo had been ceded to Belgium upon peace with the Netherlands, during the first half of the nineteenth century Leopold I focused on obtaining safe shipping routes between Belgium and its East Indian colony. To secure the route, Leopold negotiated naval rights with the United Kingdom and annexed the region around Erasme Bay[3] as a waystation. These colonies were all Belgium had until the succession of Leopold's son as Ludwig I of Belgium in 1859. Ludwig came to power at a young age, and was eager to pursue expansion of Belgium's overseas possessions.

In the early 1860s, Belgium gradually moved in from Borneo to the mainland of southeast Asia. Belgian forces embarked from Borneo and in a two year struggle, entered the city of Saigon and conquered Quinam. Soon after, Belgium also took the port of Da Nang and the ancient city of Hue, causing unrest in the Tonkin lands. After the Tonkin lords collapsed, Belgium moved in to annex the entire area aside from a few isolated local tribes which held out for a few more decades. During this period, the Belgians also established the kingdom of Cambodia as a protectorate in exchange for defense against Siam, but this would turn into colonial domination in later decades.

Other colonization efforts were taken by the United Kingdom and France during the 1850s and 1860s. Great Britain expanded its presence in the Gold Coast and north of the Cape Colony. After the Ganges Revolt settled down, Britain also sent an expedition led by the Great Eastern, a grand steamship designed by Isambard Kingdom Brunel, to Japan. This expedition was ultimately successful at achieving diplomatic relations with Japan, and culminated with the Anglo-Japanese Friendship Treaty signed by Lord Elgin who accompanied the expedition and representatives of the Shogunate in 1861.

Meanwhile, the French also sought more colonies after the full annexation of Algeria and the accession of Louis-Napoleon to the French presidency. In 1856, France purchased the anchorage of Obock in the Gulf of Tajdoura. With concessions made by Sa'id Pasha of Egypt three years later, France's interest in the Red Sea grew. The French government soon expanded their colony in Obock to include the nearby town of Assab, and established a hold over the Hanish Islands in the Red Sea and the area surrounding the port town of Mocha on the Arabian Peninsula. Around 1865, the French government also sent a naval and trade expedition to Korea. This expedition obtained a French base in Ganghwa Island similar to the situation of the Dutch in Dejima, and allowed French missionaries limited freedoms in the city of Incheon.

[1] Warlords; the term comes from the shortening of the term for 'little governor'
[2] Mayor-General and Lieutenant Mayor, respectively
[3] Walvis Bay
 
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First image with this update, Mexico after the second collapse.

Mexican Collapse Final.png
 
Interesting. I wonder if the filibustering actions of Davis are going to lead to calls for further expansion into Mexico anytime soon. I can't see President Houston assenting to that (that would tear open the entire slavery debate once more), but nevertheless, a future President might attempt that, and spark TTL's Civil War.

Nice updates, wilcoxchar.
 
As much as I dislike seeing poor Mexico collapsed and balkanized I must admit you've done it with style and that I really like your timeline. So I'll keep an eye on it. Well done!
 
As much as I dislike seeing poor Mexico collapsed and balkanized I must admit you've done it with style and that I really like your timeline. So I'll keep an eye on it. Well done!

It is a very sad affair that Mexico collapsed. Though it was done with style, I have to say the division seems somewhat arbitrary

Puebla got divided over several of the new countries (Mexico Tlaxcala and Oaxaca). What is the poor Bishop going to do? I would have imagined that he could have been capable of at least centralizing some power there. (In OTL Puebla declared neutrality during the Mex-American war because he stroke a deal with Scott).
I am also surprised the north (Sonora, Chihuahua, Durango and chunks of Queretaro) were not group into a single larger state. There is not that many people around there.

But Oaxaca, and Jalisco the smaller Mexico with a Pacific coast, do sound like natural outcomes of such balkanization. For those I can say good work.

With Davis in Veracruz, I really hope this does not turn into a massive Ameriwank. So far it was a neat alternate US, hopefully it continues as so. Or at least as a radically different type of Ameriwank.
 
Wow, a former Vice President of the US leading a filibuster. Andrew Jackson is smiling in his grave. :p

Still, Mr. Davis may have very well lit the fuse under the Civil War powderkeg.

Kinda surprised California didn't make a move on Sonora.

Still, this TL keeps getting better and better. A balkanized Mexico I can actually find beliviable us awesome. Can't wait for the next.
 
It is a very sad affair that Mexico collapsed. Though it was done with style, I have to say the division seems somewhat arbitrary

Puebla got divided over several of the new countries (Mexico Tlaxcala and Oaxaca). What is the poor Bishop going to do? I would have imagined that he could have been capable of at least centralizing some power there. (In OTL Puebla declared neutrality during the Mex-American war because he stroke a deal with Scott).
I am also surprised the north (Sonora, Chihuahua, Durango and chunks of Queretaro) were not group into a single larger state. There is not that many people around there.

But Oaxaca, and Jalisco the smaller Mexico with a Pacific coast, do sound like natural outcomes of such balkanization. For those I can say good work.

With Davis in Veracruz, I really hope this does not turn into a massive Ameriwank. So far it was a neat alternate US, hopefully it continues as so. Or at least as a radically different type of Ameriwank.

Those are interesting points you bring up. Taking a second look at the map I must agree in some. For example, Zacatecas got gobbled up by Queretaro, when, in OTL, there was a revolt for independence around the time of the Texan Revolution. And Durango taking Nayarit, when Nayarit was part of Jalisco for a long time and was closer to this one.
 
Those are interesting points you bring up. Taking a second look at the map I must agree in some. For example, Zacatecas got gobbled up by Queretaro, when, in OTL, there was a revolt for independence around the time of the Texan Revolution. And Durango taking Nayarit, when Nayarit was part of Jalisco for a long time and was closer to this one.

The thing about Zacatecas is that it is so oddly shaped, and placed, that there would have to be some changes to the overall borders of everything. But that could be arranged.
 
Ooh, discussion! Yay! I'll try to answer everyone's questions. :p

Interesting. I wonder if the filibustering actions of Davis are going to lead to calls for further expansion into Mexico anytime soon. I can't see President Houston assenting to that (that would tear open the entire slavery debate once more), but nevertheless, a future President might attempt that, and spark TTL's Civil War.

Nice updates, wilcoxchar.
Hehe. It certainly will, although I haven't worked out the exact timeframe of the filibuster and where it will be in US history, so I'm not entirely sure what will happen with that.

As much as I dislike seeing poor Mexico collapsed and balkanized I must admit you've done it with style and that I really like your timeline. So I'll keep an eye on it. Well done!
Thanks. I've always considered Mexico to be very lucky that it stayed together in OTL. Just so many problems in the country that could've led to it falling apart, yet it didn't.

It is a very sad affair that Mexico collapsed. Though it was done with style, I have to say the division seems somewhat arbitrary

Puebla got divided over several of the new countries (Mexico Tlaxcala and Oaxaca). What is the poor Bishop going to do? I would have imagined that he could have been capable of at least centralizing some power there. (In OTL Puebla declared neutrality during the Mex-American war because he stroke a deal with Scott).
I am also surprised the north (Sonora, Chihuahua, Durango and chunks of Queretaro) were not group into a single larger state. There is not that many people around there.

But Oaxaca, and Jalisco the smaller Mexico with a Pacific coast, do sound like natural outcomes of such balkanization. For those I can say good work.

With Davis in Veracruz, I really hope this does not turn into a massive Ameriwank. So far it was a neat alternate US, hopefully it continues as so. Or at least as a radically different type of Ameriwank.
Yeah, I'm trying to avoid an outright Ameriwank, but it's kind of difficult to give the US big enough problems. :p

Now to the topic of the balkanization. I actually didn't split up Puebla, although I may have messed up a bit on the map. Puebla is completely in Tlaxcala, and as for the bishop of Puebla, looking at the Wiki entry it seems it was called the diocese of Tlaxcala until 1903. The northern states mostly went their own way here, but there should be more people up north with all the people who were on their way to California for various reasons. The only states that got split in the breakup were Sinaloa, Veracruz, and a bit of San Luis Potosi going to Granidalgo.

Wow, a former Vice President of the US leading a filibuster. Andrew Jackson is smiling in his grave. :p

Still, Mr. Davis may have very well lit the fuse under the Civil War powderkeg.

Kinda surprised California didn't make a move on Sonora.

Still, this TL keeps getting better and better. A balkanized Mexico I can actually find beliviable us awesome. Can't wait for the next.
California's going through their gold rush at the same time. This might encourage it through a place to put the extra people or it might give them enough to handle that they don't want to deal with moving in on Sonora.

Those are interesting points you bring up. Taking a second look at the map I must agree in some. For example, Zacatecas got gobbled up by Queretaro, when, in OTL, there was a revolt for independence around the time of the Texan Revolution. And Durango taking Nayarit, when Nayarit was part of Jalisco for a long time and was closer to this one.
Yeah, I probably should've made Queretaro Zacatecas. Not sure why I had Queretaro in my notes for that country anyway. Durango taking Nayarit was mostly me wanting them to have a bigger coastline, but later wars could sort that out.

The thing about Zacatecas is that it is so oddly shaped, and placed, that there would have to be some changes to the overall borders of everything. But that could be arranged.
But crazy country borders are fun! :D
 
Shouldn't it be Rio Bravo instead of Grande ITTL?

With Davis in Veracruz, I really hope this does not turn into a massive Ameriwank. So far it was a neat alternate US, hopefully it continues as so. Or at least as a radically different type of Ameriwank.

Well, W could always 1up anyway signs of Ameriwank by having Mormon Manitoba buy Greenland and the Artic Islands. ;)
 
Yes, it should. That was a mistake on my part.

So is Queretaro going to be Zacatecas instead?

Hmmmm, Mormon Greenland...sounds awesome and weird at the same time. :D

Well, if in a world with Belgian Borneo and a President Calhoun...

Still, why shouldn't Danish Colonists have the...Oppurtunity to learn the joys of Polytheistic Theocracies?:cool:

Now as for Mexico, I absolute love the possibilities you've given TTL's Central America. Since the U.S. will most likely avoid annexing anything south of the Rio Bravo, I could personally see Central America uniting with the Mexican States in some E.U.-esque Central American Union sometime during the late 20th or 21st Century. After all, most of the TL's Central American States appear to be equals in terms of influence.

Maybe we will even see some Central American Politicians dream of a united Central America like a few European Politicians do about Europe in the OTL.

Now, as for the United States and California, will the US turn all of Cali's individual territories into states or combine some? Since California is worth at least 12 States, you could easily have a 50+ Star Flag decades before the OTL.

In any case, I can wait for the next update, and yes, Mormon Greenland would make you an AH God.;)
 
So is Queretaro going to be Zacatecas instead?



Well, if in a world with Belgian Borneo and a President Calhoun...

Still, why shouldn't Danish Colonists have the...Oppurtunity to learn the joys of Polytheistic Theocracies?:cool:

Now as for Mexico, I absolute love the possibilities you've given TTL's Central America. Since the U.S. will most likely avoid annexing anything south of the Rio Bravo, I could personally see Central America uniting with the Mexican States in some E.U.-esque Central American Union sometime during the late 20th or 21st Century. After all, most of the TL's Central American States appear to be equals in terms of influence.

Maybe we will even see some Central American Politicians dream of a united Central America like a few European Politicians do about Europe in the OTL.

Now, as for the United States and California, will the US turn all of Cali's individual territories into states or combine some? Since California is worth at least 12 States, you could easily have a 50+ Star Flag decades before the OTL.

In any case, I can wait for the next update, and yes, Mormon Greenland would make you an AH God.;)


I like the possibility of a Cental American Union ala EU. It gives the area lots of possibilities. This nice. And the Mormon Greenland (but I think that is way more far fetched but still really cool).


But I am still hoping for an independent California. At least in some parts south of the San Fransisco Bay if the US really puts pressure into annexing it.

Also if Sonora is indeed more populated as you say then my guess is that a large chunk of them where Mexican's escaping the political strife of the centre and moving north with hopes of reaching prospering and promising California. Annexation to California might actually be a popular thing in Sonora. And I think most Californios will gladly accept Sonora to keep its Hispanic population from decreasing. Although some of the western Mormon provinces might not like such move.
Ooh that would be a really cool way to trigger the secession of Deseret form California. And as a consequence US expansionism west. Ooh California continues to be a very interesting place.

As for the Queretaro / Zacatecas question. I think you can change the names as you did for Houston and Tejas earlier on. We will all accept it. It makes sense.
If you want some further wars inside Mexico, Queretaro is a place to start. It was over all very loyal to the central government in Mexico City. That fact that it is now claimed by another government it will not be very popular in the areas around the City of Queretaro. It could cause some strife between Zacatecas Mexico and Jalisco (which lies in the middle and in the way).
 
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