UCS Clarification Conference

[Plumber]

I still think Argentinean, Hungarian, Serbian/Yugoslavian and Bulgarian colors are needed, in order of importance.

And on China, I offer a compromise: Gold for Conservative China, Green (the new green, not the neon lime) for Radical/Republican China or Communist China where PRC is not the second most powerful commie state (since the PRC Color is 2nd Communist Power color now).

 

[Thande]

I still think Argentinean, Hungarian, Serbian/Yugoslavian and Bulgarian colors are needed, in order of importance.

Well I don't. Under what circumstances would those be needed?

And on China, I offer a compromise: Gold for Conservative China, Green (the new green, not the neon lime) for Radical/Republican China or Communist China where PRC is not the second most powerful commie state (since the PRC Color is 2nd Communist Power color now).

What gold? Imperial Russia's using gold. I agree about making the PRC colour "2nd communist power" though - or perhaps "leader of the breakaway faction of your radical ideology".

 

[Alex Richards]

I don't think we need Bengali or Deccan colours. The Hindu/Muslim divide basically works well for South/North as well. As I say, this should only be used for big empires, not individual states that just happen to fit the bill...I appreciate it's a bit vague but hopefully once we've tried it out on some maps we can refine the definition.

I've already tried it. 1070 has:

The chola empire controlling the southern coast and Sri Lanka
Chalukaya kingdom with vassal state Hoysala
Pala Kingdom with vassal Sena
Ghaznavid sultanate in upper Pakistan as dominant muslim power (if that's not indian enough, there's Sindh as the only other Muslim Indian state).

And there are several other situations throughout the period prior to the Mughal Empire like this.

Here's the map for 1070, showing this. I've included preferred colours and some alternative ones. (Nepal not intended as a set colour)

Re: Hungary, Bulgaria. There's a 500 year period between 1000 and 1500 where Hungary has several vassal states and I've recently seen a couple of ATL maps featuring a Bulgaria with either occupation zones in WWII, vassals/puppets or territory in Anatolia as well as Thrace.

 

[Plumber]

Well I don't. Under what circumstances would those be needed?
What gold? Imperial Russia's using gold. I agree about making the PRC colour "2nd communist power" though - or perhaps "leader of the breakaway faction of your radical ideology".

Argentina may have puppets, Hungary had vassals in the past, and Bulgaria and Serbian colors show who gets what in the Balkans.

And the Chinese gold is a page back or so; it's distinct from Russian gold.

 

[Thande]

Argentina may have puppets, Hungary had vassals in the past, and Bulgaria and Serbian colors show who gets what in the Balkans.

And the Chinese gold is a page back or so; it's distinct from Russian gold.

I tried that one, it's not distinctive enough from other colours (it's almost identical to Persian mustard).

We simply don't have enough colours left for minor European countries and I'd rather spend them on countries that deserve the colours better.

 

[Lord Insane]

Well I don't. Under what circumstances would those be needed?

Falklands, different borders vis-a-vis Chile, using it to represent a more powerful analogue (for example, a UPSA) that may have puppets...

 

[Thande]

Falklands, different borders vis-a-vis Chile, using it to represent a more powerful analogue (for example, a UPSA) that may have puppets...

Look, I was the one who first added a colour for Argentina in the first place many moons ago for just those reasons. But we can't have a colour for everyone and you have to make some sacrifices.

 

[Lord Insane]

Look, I was the one who first added a colour for Argentina in the first place many moons ago for just those reasons. But we can't have a colour for everyone and you have to make some sacrifices.

My point was there are circumstances under which a colour would be needed, not really that those circumstances appear often enough for a colour to be warranted (as I noted - the Falklands seems to stay British suspiciously much).

 

[Imperator Frank]

Well I don't. Under what circumstances would those be needed?


What gold? Imperial Russia's using gold. I agree about making the PRC colour "2nd communist power" though - or perhaps "leader of the breakaway faction of your radical ideology".

Argentina has that island to the south and that antarctic claim right?

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Argentina has that island to the south and that antarctic claim right?

Argentina's claim isn't recognised. It's a claim to a claim, more than anything.

 

[Thande]

I'm going to sleep on this for a while.

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

I'm going to sleep on this for a while.

That's what I've been doing. I've come to the conclusion that I might just isolate myself again..

 

[Jimbrock]

Am I the only one standing up for the true UCS?

Well, sod you lot. This whole thing was a fail from beginning to end, but it would still make a damn good story. I hope that theres enough of UCS left to be actually viably used, but I doubt it.

 

[Trovador]

I'm "ignoring" most of the changes in the UCS, but I have a suggestion: now we're using the RGB notation, what do you think if the Dominion and Sucessor state colours are padronized: for any given country, their Dominion is the original colour + 127/127/127/127 (hard grey with 50% of opacity), and the Sucessor State colour is 225/225/225/127(light grey with 50% of opacity).
I think this idea was proposed in the past, but not applied (other than to the french sucessor state and the british dominions...).
The result is clear, the maps are intuitive and, even if there can be some overlap, it simplifies quite a lot the colonial nations for ATLs - we can even keep the colours for the countries (the brazilian green/blue, the argentinean dark blue), but this would give a standard alternative for when an unusual country has colonies.
If a second colour is needed, we could use original colour + 0/0/0/100 (black, with some opacity).

Other than that, I agree with bright red as the colour for the main communist nation, rather than the Soviet Union specifically. I suggest, though, to use the same logic for the US colour: instead of being the british colony which broke violently, it should be the colour of the main independent ex-colony of America. It doesn't matter if it was founded by French, Italians or Morrocans - the major american power would receive the colour. This way, the map would give a little more explanation about the scenario.

 

[Alex Richards]

Am I the only one standing up for the true UCS?

Well, sod you lot. This whole thing was a fail from beginning to end, but it would still make a damn good story. I hope that theres enough of UCS left to be actually viably used, but I doubt it.

Frankly, seeing as I've needed to add half a dozen colours for an OTL map, that's virtually impossible.

As for retaining the old UCS, all the major powers (UK, US, Russia, China, India, France, Germany etc.) are the same. Alterations are mainly to minor states or new additions for ATLs.

 

[Lord Insane]

As for retaining the old UCS, all the major powers (UK, US, Russia, China, India, France, Germany etc.) are the same. Alterations are mainly to minor states or new additions for ATLs.

And in one case where it isn't a minor state or an ATL addition, it allows for a colour to be freed up for other use, leaving us at +/-0 despite having added a new colour.

 

[Alex Richards]

And in one case where it isn't a minor state or an ATL addition, it allows for a colour to be freed up for other use, leaving us at +/-0 despite having added a new colour.

If you're referring to Mali, I think that's going to be 'Malaysia/secondary Indonesian power'

 

[Lord Insane]

If you're referring to Mali, I think that's going to be 'Malaysia/secondary Indonesian power'

Actually, no, but the colour I was referring to is still used in Thande's rough draft and its predecessors... just for another, though related, thing than it was previously.
The HRE.

 

[Orioes]

What's the point in having set colours that could stand for anything depending on the TL? That conveys no additional information than just colouring it white.

It won't give you information on what the state is (though in cases of more powerful OTL states you may be able to guess) but it would give you information on what they control. For example, say you have a ATL state called the Holy Thandian Empire. Now the HTE does not have an OTL analogue or if it does its color is already used or is white. Now let us say that being true to the stereotype of empires the HTE has colonies, states it is at war with and states it holds suerzanity over. Now depicting this wouldn't be a problem if it had a color but as it is white having colonies or going to war with/holding suerzanity over other states is ambiguous. Is that white state in Africa a HTE colony or an independent state? If country X has a white border/center (whatever we are using to represent vassal or protectorate status) who is it's master? Whose white blob has occupied Guangdong? It gives more information. Just not information on the cultural makeup and history of the state.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. But I just really want those Muslim Spanish colours to avoid an annoying itch in the ATL Map Database we've had with constantly having to colour big colonial empires inappropriate colours or leave them white. Hypocritical though I know it is, unless anyone can suggest a way to make them more distinct, I'm going to leave it. If you want a logical answer, I can only offer the weak one that in these TLs with Muslim Spain and its colonial successors Egypt tends to be Ottoman or Caliphate rather than independent anyway.

I agree a Muslim New World color would be useful so I guess we just need to make sure Egypt stays part of the Ottoman Empire.

Well I don't. Under what circumstances would those be needed?

If I could interject for a moment. If we had a system of generics you could end (or at least lessen) these debates with a note on the standard to the effect of "If it needs a color and doesn't have one use the generics".

 

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

snip

These generic colours you all seem to want defeat the purpose of the UCS. I've said it so many times now; it might be a good idea, but it defeats the purpose of the UCS. Because the colours aren't easily recognisable, and you said yourself they tell us nothing about what the state is. The criteria for something to work on a UCS map is that we need to be able to easily recognise it and it needs to tell us what the state is.