Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huldrych_Zwingli
Any one of these men could've led the Reformation. Or just use a fictional ATL analogue to Luther.
Two Lucky Princes: A TL
- Thread starter SavoyTruffle
- Start date
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huldrych_Zwingli
Any one of these men could've led the Reformation. Or just use a fictional ATL analogue to Luther.
By innovations of the Cistercians, you mean those spiffy ironworks that some people think could lead to an earlier Industrial Revolution?
Well, yes, but I don't think it would automatically lead to an earlier Industrial Revolution, but yes, this could help Europe tech-wise.
The Reformation: Troubles in Switzerland
Huldrych Zwingli was born on the first of January of 1484,and was ordained as a priest in 1506. At the time, the Swiss Confederacy was de jure a part of the Holy Roman Empire, yet de facto independent. It was shaped by the conflicts of its more powerful neighbors, the Kingdom of France and the Empire. The Italian states had their fair share of the matter, too, with the Duchy of Milan and the Papal States being in the forefront. Swiss mercenaries were prized throughout the 15th and 16th centuries; the Pontifical Swiss Guards retain their reputation for being fine warriors to this day. In a touch of irony, Zwingli himself fought on the Papal side in one of the wars in Europe.[1]
Yet this was to change in the 1520s, as Zwingli first attacked the practice of fasting on Lent. His attacks on the church led to a defense by a monk named Martin Luther, who while not entirely disagreeing with some of the allegations, found more common cause with the church rather than the Swiss[2]. The city of Zürich quickly became influenced by Zwingli, attracting the attention of the bishops who felt a little uneasy at his attacks on moral corruption. Soon, the Swiss Confederacy found itself in an internal war, as canton fought canton, with Zürich, later joined by Bern, taking the lead of the Reformed cantons, and the five Alpine cantons (Uri, Schwyz, Unterwalden, Lucerne, and Zug) remaining Catholic.
[1]All OTL.
[2]Butterflies could have made Luther less confrontational about his beliefs; not to mention that the Empire would become involved later.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Good update. I can imagine Luther leading reforms within the Roman Catholic Church in order to combat against those heretical Protestants. 
Good update. I can imagine Luther leading reforms within the Roman Catholic Church in order to combat against those heretical Protestants.
I was inspired by this thread, so I went "sure why not" and did it.
True, but his misadventures weren't any better or worse than those of his fellow contemporary monarchs; he just had more funds.
Besides that I guess that ITTL France, England and the Habsburg Empire (including the Low Countries (with Antwerp and Amsterdam)) will join the colonial game to give the Aviz-Trastamaras some competition.
Oh, but of course! The Low Countries not only provide wealth for the Habsburgs, they also have viable ports.
Well, they will try their hands at the colonial game, of course.
I've been wondering if the Eighty Years' War would be butterflied away or not, but it depends on how the Reformation goes (ITL it begins in the Swiss Confederacy, not Saxony).
Not completely, IOTL there were more than just religious reasons for the Eighty Years' war. Most of them were political, the majority of the Catholics wasn't happy with Philip II either; but protestants and catholics also didn't trust eachother and that become worse as the conflict progressed.
Furthermore OTL Philip II never had the same respect in the Low Countries as his father Charles V, who was from the region (born in Ghent (Gent), raised in Malines (Mechelen)...). ITTL the Habsburgs will have more reason to visit the region, and Brussels could become a serious competitor of Vienna for the position/title of 'capital of the Habsburg empire'*.
Anyway ITTL the Habsburg rulers will keep in touch with the region; and it is in their best interest since it is one (perhaps the most) wealthy region the rule ITTL.
And with no OTL Charles V ITTL, the Habsburgs will also focus more on the Holy Roman Empire in general...
*= a final point is that now the Habsburgs and Aviz-Trastamaras have rulers, which don't have to travel in the same manner as the OTL Charles, could we expect new or improved Aviz-Trastamara and Habsburg palaces to rival their counterparts in England and France? Since IOTL Charles V, who had to travel constantly, never had the opportunity to build palaces to rival England and France.
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This is getting more and more interesting...
You should talk a little more about France though. You never told us if Marignan happened ITTL or how Francis I's policy in the Italian peninsula ended up. And if Marignan happened, the French won't have to worry about he Swiss since Francis I forced them to swear to declare war on France ever again after his victory against them.
Furthermore, you never told us about how the relationship between the French and the English were. OTL, Henry VIII and Francis I had several political issues. What about Arthur I and Francis I in this timeline.
Also, I read earlier that you planned to have Louis II of Hungary survive but another monarch dying...
If I take both of points that are in bold into account... Can I suspect that the one dying in battle will be Holy Roman Emperor Philip I and the rival for the Imperial throne that appears is Francis I of France?
Lastly, if Louis II survives, there is a possibility for him to inherit the Polish-Lithuanian throne since he is a Jagiellon.
I'll be waiting for the next update to see how all of this will go
You should talk a little more about France though. You never told us if Marignan happened ITTL or how Francis I's policy in the Italian peninsula ended up. And if Marignan happened, the French won't have to worry about he Swiss since Francis I forced them to swear to declare war on France ever again after his victory against them.
Furthermore, you never told us about how the relationship between the French and the English were. OTL, Henry VIII and Francis I had several political issues. What about Arthur I and Francis I in this timeline.
Also, I read earlier that you planned to have Louis II of Hungary survive but another monarch dying...
SavoyTruffle said:
If I take both of points that are in bold into account... Can I suspect that the one dying in battle will be Holy Roman Emperor Philip I and the rival for the Imperial throne that appears is Francis I of France?
Lastly, if Louis II survives, there is a possibility for him to inherit the Polish-Lithuanian throne since he is a Jagiellon.
I'll be waiting for the next update to see how all of this will go
Regarding Mohacs I was thinking about Suleiman... But it all depends on the monarchs present at TTL Mohacs, which may be in a different area (within Hungary); and if Philip is present ITTL it could happen. OTOH would the emperor personally lead the force to help Hungary, if he isn't king of Hungary himself this becomes less likely (although the king of Hungary also is king of Bohemia and elector; in return he might vote for the Habsburgs in the electoral college).
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abc123
Banned
So this is my first attempt at a TL, and this one asks, "what if two princes had been luckier and survived into adulthood ?"
Thanks to DrakeRlugia's "The Prince of Peace" for giving me an inspiration; as for the other prince, just wait and see...
The Unifier: A Biography of the First King of Iberia
Miguel I of the Avis-Trastamara dynasty, was born to Manuel I of Portugal and Isabella, Princess of Asturias, the firstborn daughter of Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon. Although Isabella first married to Afonso, the Crown Prince of Portugal, he died in 1491, and she very nearly entered a convent. She was later wed to Manuel, and gave birth to Miguel, though dying in childbirth.[1]
Miguel was a child destined for greatness from birth; he was seen as the hope to unite most of Iberia under a single crown[2]. He became ill at the age of 2, however, he luckily survived[3]. Had he died, the succession of Castile and Aragon would pass to his aunt Juana, who married the Habsburg Philip of Burgundy; this still meant that as long as Miguel had no heirs of his own the Habsburgs were still high on the line of succession.
Fortunately, Miguel was an astute child, performing well in his studies. As his grandmother Isabella died in 1504, he drew closer to his destiny...
[1]This is all OTL.
[2]Spain and Portugal were united from 1580-1640, but under the Spanish Habsburgs.
[3]The POD, he dies in childhood in OTL but survives here.
So, thoughts?
Finally! A timeline that I waited for long.
Just continue.
I'm actually thinking of making Louis II survive in Mohacs but make another monarch die there (hint, hint).
And don't forget that Arthur lives longer, and the entire point of my making him live longer was to have him and Catherine produce heirs...
With the POD in 1491 and the marriage of Vladislaus to Anna of Foix only occuring IOTL 1502, what makes sure that it will happen ITTL. Vladislaus might even remarry with someone else; all I'm saying is that this might be butterflied away; and that instead Vladislaus or his ATL son and successor is killed (if he has a son ITTL)...
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France you say?
To this day, King Francis I of France is a controversial figure; was he a very powerful monarch who continued the centralization of France, came very close to wresting the Imperial throne from the Habsburgs, and extended French control over Italy? Or did he weaken the French economy, and polarized France along religious lines so as to trigger the War of French Succession? The truth is a combination of varying degrees.
Francis was born in 1494 to Charles, the Count of Angoulême, and his wife Louise of Savoy. Charles was a first cousin of King Louis XII, who would produce no heirs himself. Thus, when Louis died in 1515, Francis succeeded (his father having died in 1496) to the throne, continuing the Valois dynasty[1] (but under the cadet branch of Valois-Angoulême).
He was famed as a patron of the arts, to the point where he brought Leonardo da Vinci with him to France, where the Italian stayed until his death. He effectively founded the art collection of France that persists to this very day.
Yet Francis was more than a connoisseur. He was also a great warrior, challenging Charles V for the Imperial crown after Charles' father Philip I dying at Mohács against Suleiman I, called the Lawgiver or the Magnificent[2] While he would ultimately fail, he managed to nearly usurp Imperial power fron the Habsburgs. He also campaigned in Italy; to this day Piedmont and Lombardy are important regions of the Kingdom of France (though with nationalism rising in the 19th century, they were granted autonomy).
The Battle of Marignan would shape the Italian Wars. Although the Swiss held well, and could conceivably have won had the Venetians not arrived, it was still a victory for Francis. The French triumph was complete enough that even though the Italian states would assume that unity against a common foe was a good option, they decided rather to pursue separate courses, getting ready to swear fealty if they were next[3].
[1]The House of Valois, in turn, was a cadet branch of the Capetian dynasty.
[2]More on this later, but the gist is that Philip goes to the front to support Hungary against the Ottomans, wishing for the Habsburgs to gain its throne.
[3]This is quite important, as in OTL the French victory gave the Italian states much needed, if temporary, unity.
Francis I: The Renaissance King
To this day, King Francis I of France is a controversial figure; was he a very powerful monarch who continued the centralization of France, came very close to wresting the Imperial throne from the Habsburgs, and extended French control over Italy? Or did he weaken the French economy, and polarized France along religious lines so as to trigger the War of French Succession? The truth is a combination of varying degrees.
Francis was born in 1494 to Charles, the Count of Angoulême, and his wife Louise of Savoy. Charles was a first cousin of King Louis XII, who would produce no heirs himself. Thus, when Louis died in 1515, Francis succeeded (his father having died in 1496) to the throne, continuing the Valois dynasty[1] (but under the cadet branch of Valois-Angoulême).
He was famed as a patron of the arts, to the point where he brought Leonardo da Vinci with him to France, where the Italian stayed until his death. He effectively founded the art collection of France that persists to this very day.
Yet Francis was more than a connoisseur. He was also a great warrior, challenging Charles V for the Imperial crown after Charles' father Philip I dying at Mohács against Suleiman I, called the Lawgiver or the Magnificent[2] While he would ultimately fail, he managed to nearly usurp Imperial power fron the Habsburgs. He also campaigned in Italy; to this day Piedmont and Lombardy are important regions of the Kingdom of France (though with nationalism rising in the 19th century, they were granted autonomy).
The Battle of Marignan would shape the Italian Wars. Although the Swiss held well, and could conceivably have won had the Venetians not arrived, it was still a victory for Francis. The French triumph was complete enough that even though the Italian states would assume that unity against a common foe was a good option, they decided rather to pursue separate courses, getting ready to swear fealty if they were next[3].
[1]The House of Valois, in turn, was a cadet branch of the Capetian dynasty.
[2]More on this later, but the gist is that Philip goes to the front to support Hungary against the Ottomans, wishing for the Habsburgs to gain its throne.
[3]This is quite important, as in OTL the French victory gave the Italian states much needed, if temporary, unity.
Impressive! Although I'm not sure about the Lombardy-Piedmont bit. Obviously the kings of France could rule this region as duke of Milan (most likely) in personal union with France (like 'Spain' IOTL). However to have these regions turning into an integral part of France will be a lot harder.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
Personal Union still makes more sense. They rule France as king of France, and their Italian possessions as the dukes of Savoy and Milan.The government does; the people beg to differ.
That's pretty much it - there's been a lot of issues on how to handle it later on, though.