In OTL, the U.S. existed as one unitary nation, and that has much to do with our victory in the Civil War and the era of good tidings that followed it. As Turtledove himself points out, pre-CW, many diplomats referred to our country as these United States). But in TTL, the states broke up, so there are now "two Americas." The United States entered a period of financial crisis as it had to pay off the debts from the War of Succession and the Second Mexican War. The entire nation of Canada eventually gets occupied, destroyed, and forced into the United States involuntarily. It just makes me wonder if in Tl-191 and beyond if Americans actually identify themselves as such. Is "America" even synonymous with only the United States as the word is often used in our "OTL"? Would the North have identified themselves as being "Union-American" while the Southerners identified themselves as "Confederate-Americans?"
My own personal view is that not until after the Great Wars did the concept "being American" as we would recognize it began to form in the national consciousness as part of an effort to bring the country back together, but of course the status of Canada becomes a dilemma. Before that, I always imagined the North sort of presenting themselves as being the "real" America and them as the "real" Americans. I think they would most likely have just referred to themselves as Americans without any hyphenation, except in regards to their ethnicity. I also imagine that, despite the loss of the two wars and the economic trouble following them, most Irish and Italians and Polish and other immigrants would've still moved to the Northern states, less motivated by religion and ethnic discrimination, while the Southern Confederacy, making religion and race big aspects of their identity, would've made efforts to keep immigrants out through strict, although I imagine the domestic population increasing faster than it did in OTL due to their general sense of good feelings and economic prosperity following the wars. I also imagine that in this TTL, the immigrants are assimilated into Northern-American society much faster with less emphasis on WASP values through the Socialist Party with their multinational friendly message. As a result, immigrants quickly join them in large numbers, forcing the Democrats to eventually drop the WASP superiority thing in order to compete. I also imagine that b/c of the Socialist Party influence and the lack of a significant black population, the North would've gradually lost any real animosity for black people, and immigrant populations would've never come to develop any sort of hostile feeling for black people because they never had to compete for jobs. The North furthermore probably would've regarded the whole idea of segregation and racism as a "Southern thing," a thing that is rejected in order to elevate their moral status above the South and as a way to make themselves more truly "American" than them.
The South since they won the war before Davis ever had to even think of conscription, would've viewed the war as an affirmation of states' rights and white supremacy, and that God himself had vindicated their way of life as truly just. Thus, they come to heavily identify themselves not really as Americans in any unitary sense, but almost completely by their state. The term "confederate" I'd imagine would gradually come to mean something, like an institution or agency, that is associated with the confederate government in Richmond, kind of like how we use the word "federal" to describe bureaucracies and things in OTL. I don't imagine it becoming a term of nationality. I hardly doubt that the average Southern man in TTL would call himself a "confederate" for example. Since the Northerners still call them "rebs" even into the Second Great War, the North would probably use the term "Confederate" capital 'C' as a nationality term to describe the Southerners, in an effort to distance their Southern counterparts as far away as possible from the term "American." Black people in the South, of course, wouldn't be considered citizens by any degree, and immigrants would barely have any presence. Few immigrants there were would most likely be British or French, and even then only the upper strata. wealthy bourgeois seeking opportunity they might not have had in their home country. Catholics would be largely regarded either with hostility or with suspicion, with the exception of wealthy French immigrants.
Now, I know I've made the North sound better than the South, but there are some negative qualities in the North as well as positives for the South. Because of the ideological differences between the two major parties, the United States would most certainly exist in a state of legislative gridlock for so many decades. Strikes would catch on much sooner and much more often, causing a stifling effect on the industrial boom experienced in OTL and perhaps forcing such progressive laws as minimum wage and worker's comp at a time not yet ready for these measures. The South, on the other hand, would've seen a relatively unhindered boom during the post-war years. They also would've enjoyed much more from freedom of the seas enforced by Britain. Although transitioning gradually to an industrial based economy, the South still remains largely agrarian, and thus I imagine what we would consider progressive in environmental matters. More attune to nature than their Northern counterparts, I imagine the confederate government actually encountering resistance in attempts to promote industrialization, encountering resistance from state and local governments who want to protect their environments.
Now, I'm not sure if I actually answered the question I proposed. Maybe it is unanswerable seeing as how it is difficult to answer in our own timeline. But I thought it some interesting food for thought for the Turtledove fan.
Feel free to respond.
My own personal view is that not until after the Great Wars did the concept "being American" as we would recognize it began to form in the national consciousness as part of an effort to bring the country back together, but of course the status of Canada becomes a dilemma. Before that, I always imagined the North sort of presenting themselves as being the "real" America and them as the "real" Americans. I think they would most likely have just referred to themselves as Americans without any hyphenation, except in regards to their ethnicity. I also imagine that, despite the loss of the two wars and the economic trouble following them, most Irish and Italians and Polish and other immigrants would've still moved to the Northern states, less motivated by religion and ethnic discrimination, while the Southern Confederacy, making religion and race big aspects of their identity, would've made efforts to keep immigrants out through strict, although I imagine the domestic population increasing faster than it did in OTL due to their general sense of good feelings and economic prosperity following the wars. I also imagine that in this TTL, the immigrants are assimilated into Northern-American society much faster with less emphasis on WASP values through the Socialist Party with their multinational friendly message. As a result, immigrants quickly join them in large numbers, forcing the Democrats to eventually drop the WASP superiority thing in order to compete. I also imagine that b/c of the Socialist Party influence and the lack of a significant black population, the North would've gradually lost any real animosity for black people, and immigrant populations would've never come to develop any sort of hostile feeling for black people because they never had to compete for jobs. The North furthermore probably would've regarded the whole idea of segregation and racism as a "Southern thing," a thing that is rejected in order to elevate their moral status above the South and as a way to make themselves more truly "American" than them.
The South since they won the war before Davis ever had to even think of conscription, would've viewed the war as an affirmation of states' rights and white supremacy, and that God himself had vindicated their way of life as truly just. Thus, they come to heavily identify themselves not really as Americans in any unitary sense, but almost completely by their state. The term "confederate" I'd imagine would gradually come to mean something, like an institution or agency, that is associated with the confederate government in Richmond, kind of like how we use the word "federal" to describe bureaucracies and things in OTL. I don't imagine it becoming a term of nationality. I hardly doubt that the average Southern man in TTL would call himself a "confederate" for example. Since the Northerners still call them "rebs" even into the Second Great War, the North would probably use the term "Confederate" capital 'C' as a nationality term to describe the Southerners, in an effort to distance their Southern counterparts as far away as possible from the term "American." Black people in the South, of course, wouldn't be considered citizens by any degree, and immigrants would barely have any presence. Few immigrants there were would most likely be British or French, and even then only the upper strata. wealthy bourgeois seeking opportunity they might not have had in their home country. Catholics would be largely regarded either with hostility or with suspicion, with the exception of wealthy French immigrants.
Now, I know I've made the North sound better than the South, but there are some negative qualities in the North as well as positives for the South. Because of the ideological differences between the two major parties, the United States would most certainly exist in a state of legislative gridlock for so many decades. Strikes would catch on much sooner and much more often, causing a stifling effect on the industrial boom experienced in OTL and perhaps forcing such progressive laws as minimum wage and worker's comp at a time not yet ready for these measures. The South, on the other hand, would've seen a relatively unhindered boom during the post-war years. They also would've enjoyed much more from freedom of the seas enforced by Britain. Although transitioning gradually to an industrial based economy, the South still remains largely agrarian, and thus I imagine what we would consider progressive in environmental matters. More attune to nature than their Northern counterparts, I imagine the confederate government actually encountering resistance in attempts to promote industrialization, encountering resistance from state and local governments who want to protect their environments.
Now, I'm not sure if I actually answered the question I proposed. Maybe it is unanswerable seeing as how it is difficult to answer in our own timeline. But I thought it some interesting food for thought for the Turtledove fan.
Feel free to respond.
