not sure about the population levels of Canada in the 40s, but might it not be fairly easy to annex the western provinces, due to their low populations?
TL 191: The Southern Occupation
- Thread starter m0585
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Faeelin
Banned
You forget, they're socialist, which means in their heart of hearts they want gulags.
Faeelin
Banned
How? The USSR collapsed because it had a planned economy that doesn't work. The USA has...
I also assume the USA will get a jump when it finds the time machine that helped the Confederacy build atomic weapons.
eh, I'm with Rvbomally on this one the US could reintegrate to confederate states after a long drawn processes. Probably starting with Virgina so the US can finally move back into Washington D.C and restore it as their defacto capitol. After that continue on to the other states until America is whole once more
Again, I feel the USA will ignore the world at large and focus around the areas it can immediately control. This has a benefit of freeing the manpower and resources necessary for eventual reintegration. The USA will likely stay neutral for the time being if Germany and Japan start looking at each other warily, and as such, the USA will likely start trading with both. More money means more resources to dedicate to figuring out what to do with their conquests. I imagine that you'd probably find someone really hawkish like Robert McNamara come into the presidency as a Republican and begin work on a plan to integrate the CSA states and Canadian provinces as states. It may cause some friction with Confederate and Canadian nationalists; however, the citizenry at large would be happy at an end to the political violence.
While the USA now has to expend the money to connect these new states together, it would be feasible to sell a federal highway system to allow a better allocation of things like Canadian timber and the like. I'd say, given the largely capitalist economy the USA has, it will re-emerge in the mid 70's to early 80's as a non-aligned kingmaker to the Germans or the Japanese. The thing here is that Germany will likely benefit more than Japan from a renewed alliance with the United States. In fact, whomever is President can say it quite frankly: "They helped us regain national honor, so why shouldn't we help them defend their own?"
While the USA now has to expend the money to connect these new states together, it would be feasible to sell a federal highway system to allow a better allocation of things like Canadian timber and the like. I'd say, given the largely capitalist economy the USA has, it will re-emerge in the mid 70's to early 80's as a non-aligned kingmaker to the Germans or the Japanese. The thing here is that Germany will likely benefit more than Japan from a renewed alliance with the United States. In fact, whomever is President can say it quite frankly: "They helped us regain national honor, so why shouldn't we help them defend their own?"
This is why you want to be funny. Stalin left the implication you could choose the camp you go to!
Now then, I will read the rest of this thread after going through the hundred pages of After the End to see all the posts again. Can't find them all in one completed thread for the finished timelines. Anyways, I am thinking the U.S. is going to reverse the Retrocession and have Washington D.C. as a diamond. I wouldn't worry about the possible issues of states of Washington and Columbia (as suggested somewhere on a different thread) as it would probably be called D.C. a lot, although... Might people be iffy about something so similar sounding to Dixie!
As for territory, I am wondering if they slash off the peninsula Virginia has and gives it to Delaware. Sure, Maryland is closer but no need to expand it all the time. Northern Virginia was added to West Virginia after the Great War, right? They can probably be convinced to give up the land. And what happens with Richmond? I imagine it was destroyed during the war, so maybe they move the city to Williamsburg to show off the age of the state. Then again, IOTL wasn't its restoration and upkeep paid for by Northern industrialists and financiers?
As for territory, I am wondering if they slash off the peninsula Virginia has and gives it to Delaware. Sure, Maryland is closer but no need to expand it all the time. Northern Virginia was added to West Virginia after the Great War, right? They can probably be convinced to give up the land. And what happens with Richmond? I imagine it was destroyed during the war, so maybe they move the city to Williamsburg to show off the age of the state. Then again, IOTL wasn't its restoration and upkeep paid for by Northern industrialists and financiers?
First priority for America is Virginia and everything north of the 36th parallel. Probably so they can finally move the de facto capitol back to Washington D.C and get a major symbolic victory
Also, what do you guys think about the Protestant Irish, Unionists, nd Ulsterites? While I assume they were deported after the Great War, I am unsure about the After the End suggestion about them going to South Africa. They would perhaps be similar religiously to the Afrikaners but... Hmmm, guess it really depends if the Boers have an especially great predominance over the Anglos. I know they were mentioned also going to Australia, while Great Britain might be considered a pile of rubble and some might be afraid of being seen as Irish if they went over there. Maybe they could come to the United States? Sure, Southerners had a lot of Scots-Irish background, but with Utah, Canada, the South, and the Sothernors having left the UK centuries before of course... Yah, I can see them deciding 'Hmmm, English speaking, Irish, Scottish, Protestant, call themselves Unionists... Fast track them'. Heck, now that I think of it the U.S. might decide that Sequoyah did, after all, vote to stay in the Union unlike Houston and Kentucky, so maybe the Five Civilized Tribes should be given some land back. Might have to be done early in though, before Southernors could claim full citizenship rights.
The Remembrance Coup
The Remembrance Coup or as has been engraved in US pop culture the Yankee Spring was a rather short-lived attempt by a group of Remembrance hardliners to take power in wake of the election of Republican John Packer who was in favor of US withdrawal from the former states of the CSA who were still under military occupation.
Background and the Atlanta Barrel massacre
In wake of American victory in the 2nd Great War, the US finally stood poised to reintegrate the CSA and finally reunite both countries. However, the process proved more difficult than expected as much of the CSA was looted for resources and heavily damaged in the 2nd Great war, reconstruction was also delayed as reconstruction in the United States took the first priority with the states of the CSA not fully recovering until the 1980s. This would foster much resentment in the former Confederate States who now found themselves in squalid living conditions and under martial law. This was also compounded by the imposition of American laws of integration and equal rights for everyone which only amplified resistance against US military occupation. While armed resistance soon ended it was soon replaced by nonviolent resistance as thousands of former Confederates protested the forced integration into the United States.
While these protesters might have eventually faded into the obscurity they only continue to rise in strength though they soon began to die down in the 1950s as lack of progress began more and more apparent. It all changed with the Atlanta protests in 1961. During that time it is estimated that over 20,000 people turned out on the streets of Atlanta during the anniversary of Morrell's Offensive to protest US occupation and the continued presence of military rule. The protest was guarded by US Army troops and their brand new Mark 6 Barrels, who all watched carefully as the protestors became more and more emboldened. Soon, thousands of protesters had begun to boo and jeer at the amassed forces. As the protest continued, more and more protesters were incited to antagonize the local forces with insults and foul language.
The occupation forces were slightly underwhelmed compared to the unexpected turnout and placed under the command of Lieutenant Ralph Nesbitt, an inexperienced officer who had not been on occupation duty before. At the sight of the rattling protesters shouting louder and louder at the stalwart US troops, Nesbitt made possibly one of the worst choices that could have been made. He ordered the demonstrators to disperse. Megaphone-enhanced voices boomed out, demanding that protesters returned to their homes, and left the area peacefully. Instead, this only invited the protesters to jeer louder. It was a matter of only a couple of seconds before one of the protesters threw the first projectile; a humble empty drink can, at the surrounding peacekeepers.
It wasn't long until other protesters joined in, and a torrent of stones and other small objects were being flung at the Yankee trooper as they cowered behind their vehicles. At this point, Nesbitt saw that the situation was rapidly spiraling out of control, and made his second mistake. 22 Mark 6 Barrels were sent in to quell the disturbance. The crowd was soon drowned in water guns and tear gas as the vans moved in and tried to scoop out the more violent of the protesters. Rioters were mowed down and pushed aside by the vehicles as thousands attempted to stampede out of the area.
Advancing Mark 6 barrels
The following day, Atlanta News reported 72 deaths during the commotion, including six children who had been brought to the rally by their parents. Some were accidentally killed by the Barrels, while others were crushed by the stampede. In addition, local hospitals had taken in hundreds of injured people, and 112 people were transported to prison to be put on trial for "disturbing the peace". The event received surprisingly little national news coverage, perhaps due to pressure applied to the media by the US occupation, not wanting to risk more commotion.
It was the start of the Confederate revolution.
This is my own take on Rvbomallys Yankee Spring scenario here http://rvbomally.deviantart.com/art/TL-191-Yankee-Spring-624703561
The Remembrance Coup or as has been engraved in US pop culture the Yankee Spring was a rather short-lived attempt by a group of Remembrance hardliners to take power in wake of the election of Republican John Packer who was in favor of US withdrawal from the former states of the CSA who were still under military occupation.
Background and the Atlanta Barrel massacre
In wake of American victory in the 2nd Great War, the US finally stood poised to reintegrate the CSA and finally reunite both countries. However, the process proved more difficult than expected as much of the CSA was looted for resources and heavily damaged in the 2nd Great war, reconstruction was also delayed as reconstruction in the United States took the first priority with the states of the CSA not fully recovering until the 1980s. This would foster much resentment in the former Confederate States who now found themselves in squalid living conditions and under martial law. This was also compounded by the imposition of American laws of integration and equal rights for everyone which only amplified resistance against US military occupation. While armed resistance soon ended it was soon replaced by nonviolent resistance as thousands of former Confederates protested the forced integration into the United States.
While these protesters might have eventually faded into the obscurity they only continue to rise in strength though they soon began to die down in the 1950s as lack of progress began more and more apparent. It all changed with the Atlanta protests in 1961. During that time it is estimated that over 20,000 people turned out on the streets of Atlanta during the anniversary of Morrell's Offensive to protest US occupation and the continued presence of military rule. The protest was guarded by US Army troops and their brand new Mark 6 Barrels, who all watched carefully as the protestors became more and more emboldened. Soon, thousands of protesters had begun to boo and jeer at the amassed forces. As the protest continued, more and more protesters were incited to antagonize the local forces with insults and foul language.
The occupation forces were slightly underwhelmed compared to the unexpected turnout and placed under the command of Lieutenant Ralph Nesbitt, an inexperienced officer who had not been on occupation duty before. At the sight of the rattling protesters shouting louder and louder at the stalwart US troops, Nesbitt made possibly one of the worst choices that could have been made. He ordered the demonstrators to disperse. Megaphone-enhanced voices boomed out, demanding that protesters returned to their homes, and left the area peacefully. Instead, this only invited the protesters to jeer louder. It was a matter of only a couple of seconds before one of the protesters threw the first projectile; a humble empty drink can, at the surrounding peacekeepers.
It wasn't long until other protesters joined in, and a torrent of stones and other small objects were being flung at the Yankee trooper as they cowered behind their vehicles. At this point, Nesbitt saw that the situation was rapidly spiraling out of control, and made his second mistake. 22 Mark 6 Barrels were sent in to quell the disturbance. The crowd was soon drowned in water guns and tear gas as the vans moved in and tried to scoop out the more violent of the protesters. Rioters were mowed down and pushed aside by the vehicles as thousands attempted to stampede out of the area.
Advancing Mark 6 barrels
The following day, Atlanta News reported 72 deaths during the commotion, including six children who had been brought to the rally by their parents. Some were accidentally killed by the Barrels, while others were crushed by the stampede. In addition, local hospitals had taken in hundreds of injured people, and 112 people were transported to prison to be put on trial for "disturbing the peace". The event received surprisingly little national news coverage, perhaps due to pressure applied to the media by the US occupation, not wanting to risk more commotion.
It was the start of the Confederate revolution.
This is my own take on Rvbomallys Yankee Spring scenario here http://rvbomally.deviantart.com/art/TL-191-Yankee-Spring-624703561
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Realistically I don't think they'll be forcibly deported in 1917, many will voluntarily leave and cities like Glasgow and Liverpool had large populations of 'Orange' Irishmen to welcome them. However TL-191 is a crapsack world so maybe there is ethnic cleansing in Ireland - though its not like Ireland has hundreds of thousands of industrial workers to replace the Unionists. So continuing the crapsack theme, you have deportations plus those Unionists not willing to leave and Ireland is weaker in the short to mid term for it. Though on balance I assumed the Unionist North would be a revanchist driver for Mosley and Churchill and post Second Great War the population transfers take place.
Then... well they're getting dumped in Britain, simple logistics means Liverpool and Glasgow obviously so many will just stay there because there's established communities. Then you have places like Australia and South Africa but it really depends on how shit Britain becomes. Also remember Britain like Germany IOTL will be noticed by its absence if its not part of the world economy, a victorious Berlin probably will end up financing it's post-war recovery at least in part just to stop millions dying of famine and to get the European and World Economy back on track. Add the lost lives from two global wars and three atomic bombs and skilled Ulster labour would be in high demand. The majority will stay in Britain as long as it doesn't become some sort of damp Somalia.