The third Audacious class carrier - what might have been ?

Archibald

Banned
As title says. Spinoff from the other thread
I never realized there was a third ship in construction that was scrapped after WWII, 25% complete.
Considering (with perfect hindsight of course) that Ark Royal and Eagle were the only carriers big enough for Phantoms, I wonder about that third carrier.
By the way, what would you scrap to fully modernize that one in the 50's ?
- Victorious ?(WTF, EIGHT years spent modernizing a WWII hull, but WHY ? I don't understand)
- the varied Centaurs ?
- Tigers ?
discussin with Riain in another thread a while back, he told me that Eagle modernization had been deliberately scrapped to favor the Ark Royal, which was enough worn out no carrier would be left past 1975 ?
They couldn't pull such crass and gross trick with a third audacious around. I wonder if it could have soldiered long enough to scare the shit of the Junta, hence no Falklands...
 
I never realized there was a third ship in construction that was scrapped after WWII, 25% complete.
Considering (with perfect hindsight of course) that Ark Royal and Eagle were the only carriers big enough for Phantoms, I wonder about that third carrier.
By the way, what would you scrap to fully modernize that one in the 50's ?
- Victorious ?(WTF, EIGHT years spent modernizing a WWII hull, but WHY ? I don't understand)
- the varied Centaurs ?
- Tigers ?
discussin with Riain in another thread a while back, he told me that Eagle modernization had been deliberately scrapped to favor the Ark Royal, which was enough worn out no carrier would be left past 1975 ?
Well with hindsight,
Cancel Vanguard to pay for her, then no old CV rebuilds as they are going to be replaced anyway..... ASB really considering RN procurement.
 
Eagle as designed

Name No Builder Laid down Launched Comp Fate
Eagle (ex-Audacious) R05 Harland & Wolff, Belfast 24/10/1942 19/3/1946 1/10/1951 stricken 10/1978
Eagle Vickers-Armstrong, Tyne 19/4/1944 --- --- cancelled 1/1946
Ark Royal R09 Cammell Laird, Birkenhead 3/5/1943 3/5/1950 25/2/1955 stricken 2/1979
As designed:

Displacement standard, t

36800

Displacement full, t

46000

Length, m

219.5 pp 245.0 oa

Breadth, m

34.4 wl 31.2 fd

Draught, m

9.50 deep load

No of shafts

4

Machinery

Parsons geared steam turbines, 8 Admiralty 3-drum boilers

Power, h. p.

152000

Max speed, kts

32

Fuel, t

7490 oil

Endurance, nm(kts) 5000(24)
Armour, mm

belt: 114, hangar sides: 38, bulkheads: 114 - 38, flight deck: 102

Armament

8 x 2 - 114/45 QF Mk III, 8 x 8 - 40/39 2pdr QF Mk VIII, 60 - 20/70 Oerlikon Mk II/IV, 78 aircraft (Seafire, Firefly, Sea Hornet, Sea Fury fighters, Barracuda, Firebrand torpedo bombers)

Sensors

not known

Complement 2740
Aircraft facilities (fd - 7,560m², ha - 4,840m² / 25,652m³): Flight deck: 242.3(useful length) x 31.2m. Upper and lower hangars were 5.3m in height and had useful area 4840m2 summary. There were 2 lifts (13.6t, 16.5x13.4m fwd and 16.5x10.0m aft). There were 2 catapults BH-V (13.6t plane was launched at 139km/h). Aircraft fuel stowage was 465,000l.

Ship project history: Much improved Illustrious would have flight deck protected by 102mm armour on 25mm plating. Very large hangar had area as on Ark Royal. Underwater protection was modified, two sea water-filled outer compartments there are. It was planned that this protection can stand explosion of 545kg warhead and possibly 908kg. Late 1945 they planned to arm these ships by 8 x 6, 2 x 2 and 12 x 1 40mm Bofors and 18 20mm Oerlikons.

Protection: Flight deck has 102mm of armour, lying over 25mm steel plates inside and 37mm outside citadel. There was 64-25mm lower hangar deck, magazines and steering gear were protected by 114 - 51mm vertical and 102mm horizontal armour. Hangar sides had 38mm protection. Underwater protection was a modification of previous designs, longitudinal bulkhead was 63mm thick.

EAGLE

brit_c267.gif


Eagle 1951

brit_c373.gif
 
As Vanguard had her sea trials in 1946, wouldn't she be pretty much complete by the end of the war? If so the cost and material savings of canceling the ship at the end of the war are relatively minor. What they could do is complete the ship and immediately mothball it saving the costs of actually running the ship while keeping it available for future use if required. I.E Korea and Suez.
 
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If the Admiralty had known that aircraft sizes were going to explode over the next 10 years or so, keeping the 3rd Audacious might have made sense. At the time, the Admiralty was more focused on ensuring they had enough carriers to fulfill all their requirements around the Empire and the Light Fleet Carriers made more sense for this role. It is the old quality versus quantity trade-off.
 

Archibald

Banned
Mach 2, what's that ? My piston-engine Hawker Fury can shoot anything out of the sky (the year was 1946...)
 
As title says. Spinoff from the other thread
I never realized there was a third ship in construction that was scrapped after WWII, 25% complete.
Considering (with perfect hindsight of course) that Ark Royal and Eagle were the only carriers big enough for Phantoms, I wonder about that third carrier.
By the way, what would you scrap to fully modernize that one in the 50's ?
- Victorious ?(WTF, EIGHT years spent modernizing a WWII hull, but WHY ? I don't understand)
- the varied Centaurs ?
- Tigers ?
discussin with Riain in another thread a while back, he told me that Eagle modernization had been deliberately scrapped to favor the Ark Royal, which was enough worn out no carrier would be left past 1975 ?
They couldn't pull such crass and gross trick with a third audacious around. I wonder if it could have soldiered long enough to scare the shit of the Junta, hence no Falklands...

As has been argued before in terms of the Junta, arguable just have Eagle selected to get the Phantom's not Ark Royal, as Eagle was in much better material state. As to Victorious, didn't it have issues like having to be rebuilt a second time due to the boiler condition, along with the changing specs as the refit progressed?
 

Riain

Banned
Victorious' rebuild didn't need to take 8 years. The problem was the boilers and machinery weren't inspected before the rebuild or at any time while the ship was being torn down to the hangar deck. Only after he had been rebuilt was it found that the boilers and machinery were buggered so the rebuilt work was torn down again, new machinery installed and the ship rebuilt to a different standard to include a definitive angled deck and the Type 984 radar suite.

An alternative course of action would have been to find the problem with the machinery early and fit it while the ship was torn down and only rebuild her once. This would prodce a worse ship than OTL but but most likely produce a better Eagle and Ark Royal.
 

Riain

Banned
Another thing to think about is apparently the Eagle was grounded very late in her career and would have needed repair work done. Like the Victorious fire when this sort of thing comes up at the wrong time decisions get made that have long term effects.

IIRC the Ark had to leave Portsmouth with 94-96% fuel load because the channel was too shallow for her to leave with full bunkers, I assume Eagle's grounding was because of something like this.
 
Despite the grounding, repair was possible. And the cost of "Phantomizing" Eagle prior to the fusion-boosted inflation of the "Barber boom" was just £5 million, a pittance even then. The fundamental thing, and we tend often -- despite the repeated memoirs of the more down-to-earth sorts of senior officers and every defense secretary/minister or their deputies -- to underestimate both the depth and pettiness of inter-service (and indeed intra-service, like say Abe Abrams' pooch-screwing of the organizational structure of US Army special operations by creating battalion-sized Ranger units intended in his vision to be super-butch light infantry rather than direct-action commandos, motivated altogether by his armor-officer loathing for both the 82nd Airborne and Special Forces) rivalries. The fix was in from the Sixties, despite the fact that the fix -- which, to the dear late Denis Healey's credit was actually a solution, not the one I would've chosen but a rational and structured choice -- had been blown out of the figurative water by devaluation, leaving in the end only a series of bodges and the shortened legs -- one can indeed largely blame the Germans and to a lesser degree the Italians there -- of Tornado. That was, since the V-bombers were out of the deterrent business, and the RN had Polaris, the RN would have Polaris but not carriers because the "strike" mission would go to the F-111K Merlins and to either an Anglo-French Tornadoish aircraft, or when that fell through (shades of Typhoon/Rafale) to the actual Panavia Tornado. That was the deal to fluff the ruffled egos of the top men who Knew Things and had their own bar tabs at the In and Out, and if Woy hadn't come back saying "nope you can't have the F-111K and its Hawker-Dassault little brother after all" it would have made political and a little bit of military sense.

(As for the V-bombers, at least the excellent Vulcans of which the B.2s were quite young at the time -- even by the Falklands they were a little over 20 years old and given the lives of American B-52Gs, much less B-52Hs which like giant snapping turtles seem destined to outlive many actuarially normal humans --they could've played a continued role. That is, had the US not spent the entire Seventies arsing around with the AGM-86 design only to come back with what they called the "B" version to the original design prior to all the Air Force angst about their precious B-1s -- the B-1A was a brilliant conventional bomber, it was essentially an F-111 on steroids, only problem was you already had the F-111 and if you'd built everything to the Australian F-111C standard [used the engines and intakes from the F if possible but used the long FB-111 "SACvark" wings like the RAAF model which had more range and could carry a little more ordnance] then you really didn't need the B-1, because the BUFFs esp. the H version could haul twenty AGM-86Bs with a 1500+ mile range so you could hit Moscow launching over the Oslofjord, or actually duel with the outer layer of Soviet domestic air defenses and hit the Urals, which meant the only aircraft the USAF had as big a hard-on for as the F-15 was a jet without a mission. So, fucking around over the B-1 meant a design detour for three or four crucial years in which the size of the AGM-86 shrank to fit the B-1's bomb bays, then lengthened again to the original design which fit the B-52 just fine. And not only did it fit the B-52s, the doughty but relatively slender missile, which kept its wings folded until after release as the motor kicked in, with some fairly straightforward mods you could have put two AGM-86s in the bomb bay of every Vulcan, and had a strategic "dyad" which would've been to Britain's very great advantage because you send the Vulcans -- subsonic but actually surprisingly maneuverable, like a number of slower but tighter-handling aircraft like for example the F-5s that the USAF used in its "aggressor" -- read "imitation enemy" -- squadrons, the Vulcans actually outmaneuvered American F-15A/Bs in some NORAD bomber-penetration exercises because the zipper-suited thunder gods' beautiful dogfighter chariots were so damn fast they couldn't corner as well -- and have them launch their low-altitude, terrain following cruise missiles from over Norway and Central Europe and hit Moscow underneath the ABM gauntlet, freeing Polaris to launch a "countervalue" holocaust of European Russia's other main population and industrial centers without obsessing over getting Polaris warheads through the ABMs onto Moscow.)

That mighty parenthetical detour gets at the other problem created by the "but we had a deal!" atmosphere coming out of the Sixties, married to Ted Heath's huffy "pragmatism" that associated carriers with Empire when what he was all about was Europe. And that was Chevaline. Ah, Chevaline. That. Fucking. Chevaline. The grand plan to make extant Polaris payloads get through the ABM gauntlet around Moscow (because that was the only target that really counted -- I have a sense that Establishment elitism played a role in such fixation on destroying the Soviet capital in retaliation for the destruction of civilized life throughout the United Kingdom, rather than taking the French approach of pointing big warheads at as many Soviet cities as possible, on the sensible grounds as one French admiral put it that "France is not a prize worth fifty million Russians.") In the end Chevaline (1) took a decade, (2) cost a billion fucking quid pissed up a wall, (3) reduced the warhead/megatonnage total deliverable by the UK deterrent by a third by reducing each Polaris payload from three warheads to two and (3) was never, ever the option that the Royal Navy wanted. The RN wanted either to outright buy Poseidon missiles (next step up from Polaris, slightly longer range and flooded a target with ten smaller warheads, which would defeat an ABM system and because of their improved accuracy as well reduced the need for higher yield-per-warhead by a factor of four (the joys of Armageddon math) or, if that was too pricey, to buy at the individual warhead level because you could get at least six (rather than ten) of the Poseidons' warheads inside the nosecone of a late-model Polaris, which was still enough to guarantee some penetration of Moscow's ABM layer. Instead a God-botheringly large sum of money was essentially burned on the sidewalk outside Main Building (MOD headquarters on Whitehall) to get a baroque solution that had several definite downsides and only lasted about a decade in service anyway before new boats that could carry Trident came along. That sum of money could have done a very, very large number of things, in particular paid easily to "Phantomise" the healthy and robust HMS Eagle and indeed paid for the extensive maintenance that HMS Ark Royal was going to need to last into the Eighties. But both carriers, even the rickety Ark, could have lasted into the Eighties for a fraction of the cost of Chevaline -- and despite the AGM-86 delays, a late-Seventies bid to get -86B for the Vulcans, modding their bomb bays, would still have been maybe five percent the cost of Chevaline. Trouble there was that you had (1) a Labour Party close to civil war over nukes, with a number of senior people in power up to Sunny Jim himself who would've gone for it if the US had been quicker to deliver -86B, and a number of other people including his successor who would've died in the last ditch to prevent acquisition of more weapons of mass destruction and (2) then John Goat-Buggering Nott, a man who roasts on the same spit in Hell as Geddes and Sandys.

On the issue of Those Islands, I am a firm subscriber to the view that all Argentine planning, since they had avoided their own Iran-Iraq-in-miniature war with Chile over the Beagle Islands in '78 and so "learned nothing and forgotten nothing," was their reading of intent on the part of the UK. And I don't even mean Nott's defense review, I mean the specific British government attitude towards the Falklands and South Georgia themselves. Based on that, they would believe that London would accept the matter as one more late-imperial embarrassment and write the kelpers off. Or, failing that, that digging in troops and having the largest (at that time, larger even than Brazil's) and arguably most modern air force in South America, would between them deter any military adventurism. They would write off even two carrier groups, boasting two dozen Phantoms armed to the teeth in dual role and thirty-plus Buccaneers, and they would be deadly wrong to do it. But based on numbers and macho they would. "Carriers would stop the Falklands from happening" is a red herring; ironically, keeping dear little HMS Endurance (I) on station stood a better chance, as a statement of British interest.

As for the carriers themselves, the crucial time really was the Heath administration, now that the effects of devaluation had settled in and, for a brief period, there was actually breakneck growth (leading, like Arthur Burns essentially burning Fed money in the streets to get Nixon reelected, to the inflationary spiral of 1973 even before the OPEC embargo.) That was when you needed something to cause a U-turn in policy wrt the carriers. That might have been easier from the start with three Audacious-class as in the OP. Indeed, having three fleet carriers in hand might have stopped what I have come to view as the folie de grandeur of CVA-01, when admirals used to running the second-most powerful navy in the world asked for just a little too much rather than conserving what they had in hand, and ended up losing it all (even up to these genuinely beautiful new ships that have piddling VSTOL jets slated for them. I would remind fans of both the Superbug -- an excellent aircraft in its way -- and the F-35B that the A-6E Intruder and the Blackburn Buccaneer, two of the most bullfrog-ugly -- so ugly they were kind of cute -- hunks of metal ever to achieve flight, were (1) built like tanks, (2) carried a larger weapons loadout than either the Super Hornet or the -35B, and (3) had a combat radius of roughly a thousand miles. That is precisely what's needed with a carrier attack aircraft and no one, not even the more respectable Rafale-M, has managed it since.) Three carriers might do it if you agreed to cut to two, sacrificing the maintenance-intensive Ark to maintain parity with the French at two fleet carriers (TTL's Audacious plus Eagle). Likewise two might survive if one of two things happened:
  • A Democrat defeats Nixon in '72: most of the Democratic foreign-policy establishment, including OG Cold Warriors like Clark Clifford, were behind deeper defense cuts than Nixon's, in which case getting Britain and France each to provide two fleet carriers both of which could outclass the Soviet Kiev-class (and the RN's Buccs and soon the Marine Nationale's Super Etendard-plus-Exocet combo could outrange the onboard missiles that were the Kievs' real weapons powerhouse, not their twelve Dinky Toys Yak-36s) takes the pressure off deeper reductions in the US carrier force
  • Someone like Schlesinger lasts longer at Defense, and isn't dealing for so long with someone like Zumwalt who's banging the drum about creeping inferiority of American seapower, so that again you get either a holding at post-Vietnam figures rather than the bids (successful in the end) for a larger American carrier force by the Eighties, or further reductions to save money, because what Schlesinger and the establishment Dems had in common, interestingly enough, was an echo of 1960s British logic: a bigger SSBN fleet was the real "power core" of the navy, especially once you brought Trident and the Ohios on line, not the number of its carriers, and getting allies to "do their bit"/cover gaps caused by US reductions in force would matter
As late as '73-'74 I think it's possible, just, to save a British force of two fleet carriers, but you'd need either that third Audacious-class in order to keep two (you're going to lose Ark if you have three carriers in hand and she looks like, well, the maintenance hog she was), or some variation of my bullet points.
 

Riain

Banned
There's a lot of stuff there, so I'll cherry pick a few bits if you don't mind.

Despite the grounding, repair was possible.

Yes, but it was an out of budgeting cycle event which throws up a range of other issues. You wouldn't put the Eagle in dock for rep[air and not Phantomise it, but that would throw the budgeting and carrier availability cycle out of whack right at the time when the fixed price contract meant that only 170 of the 400 Phantoms would be built leaving the RAF with a massive capability shortfall. This put pressure on the RN Phantom buy and Buccaneer fleet, ties in with Polaris IOC, the use of Vulcan in the tactical role and so on until it becomes all too bloody hard.

Ah, Chevaline. That. Fucking. Chevaline.

I used to agree, but had a look at Chevaline a while ago and have changed my mind based on the re-use of the warheads. The UK Polaris did use the warhead from the US missile, it was based on the Minuteman 2 warhead (but better) and when the Chevaline warheads entered production it re-used the original secondaries with new primaries and the spare secondaries were used to build a run of WE177Cs. The problem was supporting an orphan missile fleet. If the RN adopted the Poseidon they would most likely have to re-use the Polaris warheads which would limit the number of warheads to something close to the Polaris fleet but with the greater cost of building ~150 new primaries rather than ~100. They'd have to also build a new bus for the Poseidon and still develop the new quartz phenolic RVs as well as buy the missiles and covert the boats. Chevaline was a bargain compared to that.

As for the carriers themselves, the crucial time really was the Heath administration

The previous government decided to do the half-arsed rebuild on the Ark, not updating the machinery etc creating a shortfall of water. So by the time Heath came to government and the choice was put to him to save the Eagle his answer was that the RAF needed the RN Phantoms and Buccaneer, so he'd have to compensate the RAF to save the RN which makes it a double whammy for cost. What he did do was stretch the Ark to late 1978 rather than pay her off in 1972 as the previous government planned to do.
 
If there had been a third Audacious class carrier to share the work and allow more frequent maintenance would Ark Royal IV been in such a state?
 
I used to agree, but had a look at Chevaline a while ago and have changed my mind based on the re-use of the warheads. The UK Polaris did use the warhead from the US missile, it was based on the Minuteman 2 warhead (but better) and when the Chevaline warheads entered production it re-used the original secondaries with new primaries and the spare secondaries were used to build a run of WE177Cs. The problem was supporting an orphan missile fleet. If the RN adopted the Poseidon they would most likely have to re-use the Polaris warheads which would limit the number of warheads to something close to the Polaris fleet but with the greater cost of building ~150 new primaries rather than ~100. They'd have to also build a new bus for the Poseidon and still develop the new quartz phenolic RVs as well as buy the missiles and covert the boats. Chevaline was a bargain compared to that.

I'd never thought about it that way before!

I think you have just changed my mind as well regarding Chevaline.
 

Riain

Banned
That's a very good question. Why was Ark Royal so worned out with the Eagle in better shape ?

Eagle had her rebuild 1959-64 which overhauled or replaced her WW2 machinery, to the extent that her fresh water plant made more water than the ship could use. The structural changes were also very extensive, replacing WW2 steel with peacetime quality stuff . In particular the 984 radar/ADAS combat control system required steelwork changes within the ship, increasing the proportion of the ship that was new.

In contrast the Arks 3 year rebuild wasn't nearly as extensive, which is why it was only planned to keep her in commission until 1972. The WW2 machinery was retained, so had to work hard to operate phantoms and had a shortage of fresh water. The lack of the 984/ADAS meant little steelwork was done internally, leaving only the flight deck changed from the original 1956 update on the 1942 design and long lead items. Little wonder she struggled.
 
The same goes for the Colossus and Majestic class light fleets and they were only meant to last for the duration. INS Vikrant lasted in service until 1997.
 
In contrast the Arks 3 year rebuild wasn't nearly as extensive, which is why it was only planned to keep her in commission until 1972.

I'm kind of surprised they bothered with the rebuild at all. As the carriers were to be retired anyway I wouldn't have been surprised if they'd just given the Phantoms to the RAF and left the navy to carry on with the Sea Vixens until the carriers were scrapped.
 

Archibald

Banned
I often wonder how long could Eagle have lasted since it was in much better material shape that Ark Royal. Could it last until the end of Cold War in 1991 ?
 
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