The Rise of the White Huns

[TheInnerMoon]

Haven't commented on this thread in a while, but no worries, I am still enjoying this wholeheartedly Looking forward to New World of the White Huns!

Now, before this thread moves on, I would like to ask a few questions about this world and the writing process behind it, so here goes:

1 How is the state of astronomy in regions like India or Europe? Does geocentrism (still) dominate in the latter, and what are the common-held beliefs on the earth's size-shape?
2 And speaking of the sciences, what about philosophy? Many of the religions described so far hint at interesting forms of metaphysics. Compared to OTL, where would we find the most divergence/eccentricities in ethics, philosophies of mind, etc.?
3 I know that this might be deemed to divergent, but do any of this world's ideologies resemble socialism? This is perhaps a loaded question. I'm just curious whether you are of the opinion that the socialist movement is an outgrowth of a larger movement in human thought against state and property, or whether it is a fluke of 19th century economics. Or maybe you take a third option, I'm just curious.
4 I was going to ask how the Andilanders are doing, but they seem pivotal to the next thread, so I'll let you keep the surprise
5 How is technology/science in general doing? Of course, there is no such thing as 'technology/science in general', but general trends would be interesting to know. In fact, I would urge you to go full-divergent, as too many timeline eschew this approach for something more convergent, leaving this salient source of AH alone. If you need any inspiration in this regard, I would refer you to the timelines by Tony Jones, specifically his Cliveless World and Mughal World (Gurkani Alam).
6 Now, as far as I know, this timeline has let two regions of the world go unmentioned: The Americas (for sequel-timeline reasons) and Oceania. Sure, the latter might not have seen too much divergence, but the pacific island cultures are the central factor in an early pacific-New World approach, and so could be an interesting area to explore. An early settlement of New Zealand (or even Australia) by the Maori could certainly prove vital in this regard. Then again, to turn that part of TTL into a Lands of Red and Gold-lite would require an earlier PoD...
7 Do you think this AH overall has a central 'mood' to it, and if so, how would you describe it? Utopian, dystopian, humanistic, these terms come to mind.
8 What are/were your main sources in compiling this Alternate History? And what is your writing process in general like?
9 Ooh, again, I won't try to make you spoil anything, but this subject is sure to come up in the sequel TL: Plagues! Will epidemics be covered more as the world urbanises (and perhaps industrialises)? I'm sure they won't occur in the same timeframes as OTL, but I don't think they can be discounted entirely. Especially when it comes to contact with the New World or Oceania.
10 Lastly, as White-Hun-world moves on, is there any chance of another split in the Abrahamic faiths, akin to Islam? Or is the most we can expect a reformation-type event, where a religion schisms while not considering either strand 'heathen' or 'pagan', but merely misguided and heretical? Of course, you could come up with something that is more ambiguously a heresy or a separate religion entirely, and end up with something like Mormonism. It's your TL!

I hope you will not feel burdened by my questions, and feel free to disregard any of them I believe I still owe you a discussion on TTL's historiography, but feel free to PM me for anything from philosophy to science to the eventual Space Race of the White Huns TL we are all dying to read (I know I am)...

 

[Practical Lobster]

This isn't officially a post, but more of a draft of one. Keep in mind that my knowledge of historical Buddhism is about 100x less detailed than I'd like it to be. I'm mostly looking for advice on how to improve it and better realize what I'm envisioning, or perhaps change it if people have more "accurate" ideas of what might develop.

For now consider this generally non-canon, and OOC, more of guidelines than an actual rule. Unless it alludes to something directly in the story, in which case it's probably canon I suppose.

By the era of the Liang dynasty, Chinese Buddhism could be said to be distinct from the accumulated Indian and Tocharian texts it had received from outside missionaries. The indigenous religions and philosophies of China caused Chinese Buddhism to turn outwards, seeking to better understand the nature of reality and thus design governments in tune with that reality. While this philosophy had its origins in the Qi dynasty, it was under the decadent aesthete Emperors of the later Yaol dynasty that it truly enjoyed prominence. The Kitai rulers, unlike their often philistine Uighur counterparts, were deeply concerned with matters of form and function, with the broader applicability of Buddhist enlightenment to rulership and justice. This became known as the Exoteric school, and ultimately it leaned towards a form of realism in its philosophy, holding that there was a true and ideal form for all things in existence, and that the state might be used as a tool to achieve that universal state of perfection which would bring about the enlightenment of all sentient beings. It goes without saying that neither the Yaol nor their contemporaries in the South ever achieved this goal.

It was contrasted by the equally popular Esoteric school, which enjoyed the support of many monasteries – especially after the arrival of the Uighur Empire, which pushed many of the overtly political Esoteric schools into hiding. The Esoterics focused on hidden mysteries, recitations, and meditative orthopraxy. Ultimately, they would align themselves with the Chan school in opposition to the courtly refinement of the Exoterics, preferring to seek personal enlightenment over political. The Esoterics were deeply anti-realist, and believed that truth itself was an illusion, and that the transitory nature of all things imperiled any attempt to build a truly harmonious state. Retreat, both spiritual and physical, was the proper response to the chaos of the world. “Form,” they preached “does not differ from the void, nor void from the form. All phenomenon is a bubble in a fevered dream without precedent.”

Similar teachings could be found among Chan practitioners, but the Chan were concerned not so much with retreat but with the spark of sudden inspiration, and stood in opposition to both the Exoterics and another school called the “Flowering Coalescence” which ultimately merged with the Esoterics. Across China these various schools competed for the favor of local potentates and held impressive scholarly debates.

India and the broader Indosphere only complicated the notion of a single Buddhist faith further. They had their own numerous schools, most notably the Pramanavada, or “School of Inference” popularized during the Maukhani era. Based on using observations to achieve rational conclusions, the ideas of the Pramanavada would eventually find application in science and technological research, developed in parallel often by members of universities which taught the Pramanavada school. However, in Gandhara, the Pajcanada, and Sindh,the primary schools of thought, though often regional and particularistic, were similar to that of the Vajrayana. Tantric Buddhist techniques were used alongside religious iconography that would not have seemed alien to anyone in the subcontinent.

Through these schools, including Vajrayana, Indian Buddhism survived in a mass form. More limited schools under the Theravada umbrella endured in Southeast Asia, Sri Lanka, and elsewhere on the periphery, but their mass appeal was understandably limited – the agnostic view towards popular deity-worship often proved harmful, as did their general preaching of a narrow path towards enlightenment.

In popular consciousness, Buddhist ideas also penetrated Hinduism deeply. Particularly on the Malay Archipelago, Buddhism and Hinduism were virtually indecipherable from one another – while some schools kept separate from the whirlwind of theological and metaphysical questions in Hindu philosophy, others would come to embrace it. For many folk believers however, Buddha was an avatar of the Supreme God, or Visnu, or perhaps a god in his own right. This belief was encouraged by those outside of the Buddhist priesthood, including many local rulers, leading to the “thirty-three hundred sorts of Buddhas” a joke telling of the multiplicity of ways in which the Buddha was understood or worshipped village to village, particularly in rural regions.

Western Buddhism, descended from the “Sogdian School,” built its beliefs on a fundamentally different basis. The Indo-Iranian context of the Hephthalites disseminated a relatively orthodox version of the Sravakayana Buddhist teachings. That it might have been augmented by a blended pantheon of Indian and Iranian deities was simply a facet of Hephthalite paganism, and the pagan beliefs of the Iranian Eftal existed in parallel with Buddhist philosophy, being strengthened and reinforced by each other, and giving a resilience to Eftal paganism that many of its contemporaries lacked.

However, Iranian culture was deep and ancient, and would come to have a profound impact on Western Buddhism. After the rise of the Mahadevists, Zoroastrianism largely imploded on itself. The failure of all their apocalyptic prophesies and the continued foreign dominance of Iran led to a crisis of confidence. Mahadevism in many senses was the last nationalistic gasp of the Sasanian culture – after it faded, it was replaced, broadly speaking by a more universal culture, for whom the definition of Iran was far larger.

Between the Eftal Golden Age and the new rise of Western Buddhism on a mass scale, Iranian Buddhism was built on a very different, distinctly Iranian philosophical basis, incorporating both dualistic and pagan traditions that were difficult to reconcile with Buddhism as it was known in the East, and would have been utterly alien to many Buddhists. While the Sravakayana monasteries endured around the Caspian and in Transuralic Asia (among the Sahu and Xasar particularly), the Buddhist-Paganism of the typical lay devotee and aristocrat had substantial differences. In particular, this Buddhism was perhaps less “philosophical” and more metaphysical. It was as concerned with ritual and divine blessing as it was with enlightenment, and in time it would open the door for a limited form of divine salvation not so different from the concept of the “Pure Land” in China.

Iranian Buddhism developed a vast pantheon of indigenous Bodhisattvas and Arhats, as well as divine figures such as Mihir who while never supreme gods were nevertheless guardians of the greater Buddhist community and who were possessed of impressive powers over the natural world, generally stemming from their greater understanding of the inherent Truth of reality. Indeed, the dualistic battle between Truth and Lie, Good and Evil, was something that western, particularly Iranian, Buddhism was never able to defeat. While traditionally pagan groups such as the Ifthal and Khardi found little to sway them in such rhetoric, the existence of the fanatically “orthodox” and iconoclastic Nowbahar sect speaks to the influence of Persia on Iranian Buddhism. Perhaps because of their on-and-off wars with Christian powers, the Xasar Buddhism, despite worshipping many gods and coming from a pagan source, has much of the same militancy.

However, it is also difficult to characterize all Western Buddhism. Leaving aside the strange Norse-Buddhist syncretism of the Gardaveldi, the Rus, Arabs, and East Africans all have their own distinctive traditions. East African Buddhism is a diverse phenomenon, but most commonly resembles the Vajrayana or Theravada schools, is commonly passed on among certain merchant families, and accordingly has remained distinct from most theistic influences, perhaps because of the massive Bhakti presence in East Africa. Meanwhile, Arabian Buddhism is itself a strange phenomenon, which is at once very philosophically similar to the original practices of the Sri Lankan missionaries who spread the faith there (perhaps in response to Saihism) and yet has many of its own distinct cultural traditions, such as strict iconoclasm.

Despite descending from Iranian Buddhism, Buddhist practice among the Ruschi has wholly embraced the experiential journey of the inspired forest teacher. They have few monasteries, and generally believe that liberation is a personal, individual journey to be sought with the help of said teacher. While monks certainly maintain certain schools and holy sites, the itinerant monk is a distinctive feature of Ruschi Buddhism.

 

[Practical Lobster]

Haven't commented on this thread in a while, but no worries, I am still enjoying this wholeheartedly Looking forward to New World of the White Huns!

Now, before this thread moves on, I would like to ask a few questions about this world and the writing process behind it, so here goes:

1 How is the state of astronomy in regions like India or Europe? Does geocentrism (still) dominate in the latter, and what are the common-held beliefs on the earth's size-shape?
2 And speaking of the sciences, what about philosophy? Many of the religions described so far hint at interesting forms of metaphysics. Compared to OTL, where would we find the most divergence/eccentricities in ethics, philosophies of mind, etc.?
3 I know that this might be deemed to divergent, but do any of this world's ideologies resemble socialism? This is perhaps a loaded question. I'm just curious whether you are of the opinion that the socialist movement is an outgrowth of a larger movement in human thought against state and property, or whether it is a fluke of 19th century economics. Or maybe you take a third option, I'm just curious.
4 I was going to ask how the Andilanders are doing, but they seem pivotal to the next thread, so I'll let you keep the surprise
5 How is technology/science in general doing? Of course, there is no such thing as 'technology/science in general', but general trends would be interesting to know. In fact, I would urge you to go full-divergent, as too many timeline eschew this approach for something more convergent, leaving this salient source of AH alone. If you need any inspiration in this regard, I would refer you to the timelines by Tony Jones, specifically his Cliveless World and Mughal World (Gurkani Alam).
6 Now, as far as I know, this timeline has let two regions of the world go unmentioned: The Americas (for sequel-timeline reasons) and Oceania. Sure, the latter might not have seen too much divergence, but the pacific island cultures are the central factor in an early pacific-New World approach, and so could be an interesting area to explore. An early settlement of New Zealand (or even Australia) by the Maori could certainly prove vital in this regard. Then again, to turn that part of TTL into a Lands of Red and Gold-lite would require an earlier PoD...
7 Do you think this AH overall has a central 'mood' to it, and if so, how would you describe it? Utopian, dystopian, humanistic, these terms come to mind.
8 What are/were your main sources in compiling this Alternate History? And what is your writing process in general like?
9 Ooh, again, I won't try to make you spoil anything, but this subject is sure to come up in the sequel TL: Plagues! Will epidemics be covered more as the world urbanises (and perhaps industrialises)? I'm sure they won't occur in the same timeframes as OTL, but I don't think they can be discounted entirely. Especially when it comes to contact with the New World or Oceania.
10 Lastly, as White-Hun-world moves on, is there any chance of another split in the Abrahamic faiths, akin to Islam? Or is the most we can expect a reformation-type event, where a religion schisms while not considering either strand 'heathen' or 'pagan', but merely misguided and heretical? Of course, you could come up with something that is more ambiguously a heresy or a separate religion entirely, and end up with something like Mormonism. It's your TL!

I hope you will not feel burdened by my questions, and feel free to disregard any of them I believe I still owe you a discussion on TTL's historiography, but feel free to PM me for anything from philosophy to science to the eventual Space Race of the White Huns TL we are all dying to read (I know I am)...

Ah, I just saw this as I posted. You've given me a lot of food for thought, and here are the best answers I can give. For now:

1. Roughly as OTL. The first heliocentric model is still to come, but will likely come from Asia rather than Europe. Some other comments I want to make on this will be spoilers, but rest assured some people will be making some pretty dodgy calculations about size and shape of the earth soon enough.

2. I gave you a bit of philosophy. Stay tuned for more! In short, there are going to be some really weird philosophies coming into fruition in this world. The biggest divergences obviously are taking place in the Near East and Africa. The former is deeply inspired by Buddhism rather than Abraham faith, and I think Africa shows a lot of interesting potential in the absence of Islam and the slave trade alike. India naturally has a lot of OTL philosophies to draw on, and I'm hoping to shuffle the deck a bit in terms of which ones become popular. I have this notion of maybe making deterministic atheism a big part of the Indian worldview in coming centuries but that's not a spoiler because I'm not sure where I want to go with that yet.

3. The closest thing to leftism we have is peasant revolts against the "corporate" guild structure in India. Generally I believe that the ideologies of a given timeline will emerge in response to the conditions of that timeline. In a world with capitalism and (substantial) wealth inequality you're likely to see ideologies that attempt to address that. You will see such ideologies down the line in this timeline as well - although there are often more pressing issues for the average thinker in 1104.

5. Early gunpowder will totally throw off the evolution of medieval warfare as we know it. In some senses it already is. Navigational technology is going to race ahead as necessity spurs innovation - and is already ahead of OTL. Agriculturally India's made some pretty substantial advances that are now filtered out to much of the Indosphere and beyond. Generally the rule is that technology is advancing quicker everywhere, even places that seem like they're lagging behind in this timeline - a la Europe. I will mention though that European tactics are rather stagnated compared to OTL - the Franks just haven't fought as many wars and still use a lot of massed shield walls.

I've tried to mention various early inventions throughout this timeline when they happen. The compass is a big one. The printing press (Thanks Gandhara) is an even bigger one, although it's nowhere near as good as Gutenberg's OTL one. Mostly just used to stamp official declarations in text and for mass producing religious tracts. Soon we'll be seeing a lot of revolutions in mechanic technology overall in India, and we've already seen something of a global hydraulics revolution. I know that my broad focus on politics has hidden some of this, but I hope it's filtering through. Movable type, rapidly improving metallurgy - this world is going to be really advanced by 2000 if they don't all blow it up first.

6. I'm not even going to try to imitate Jared in that regard... but the Polynesian cultures will play a role down the line. As will Australia itself. What that role is will be deeply influenced by colonialism at a much earlier point than OTL, so expect a lot of really big changes.

7. You'd be better off asking the audience. I'm too involved in it, I think. I think it's optimistic in its vision of Indian technological progress for the sake of making a point about what might have been if successive waves of invaders hadn't kept smashing India's most populous regions for fun and profit.

8. I've checked out a lot of library books over the day, a few histories on India, one on China, and I have a bunch of (likely dated) books on Medieval Europe and the Crusades. UNESCO's sources on Africa and Central Asia have also been invaluable, as have Ian Mjaldov's maps and writings on Byzantium. Fortunately, since my scope has been broad, my options for books have been as well. I'm sorry, but I honestly forget a lot of these names as soon as I return the books. It's embarrassing too because I don't remember which book gave me the idea for the Indian guild republican revolution anymore. That one really stings, since I'd love to give that guy more credit.

9. We did already have one massive plague, the Egyptian Plague, a worse version of the Plague of Justinian. Other minor epidemics have happened in this timeline. Broadly speaking I haven't touched on them much, although there are some references... I think? If not my bad. Yes there will be massive plagues coming up soon. We should all live in fear of the "Flowering Flesh."

10. Don't forget about the Tinanian heresy, which is my more successful Catharism (sort of) and some of the weirder African versions of Monophysitism.

 

[B_Munro]

View attachment 280788 OK, here's the latest - comments, criticisms, corrections?

View attachment 280714

 

[ramones1986]

Mahavisayas?

 

[Practical Lobster]

If you want a better name for the Izaoriaka their dynastic names are Iazorana (for the coastal theocracy) and Sakalava for the interior mandala succeaser state. I didn't mean to make that unclear by saying that their nations didn't have distinct names - history in this timeline will divide them by dynasty.

Where you have Bleymmes(?) there isn't really much of a civilization. Some Bedja nomads and a few coastal port cities - notably Badi and Usuka [otl Sawakin], the latter famed for its coral. There, they worship Makurian Christianity and sometimes a pagan sun-god. There are small but significant Saihist and Buddhist communities from Arabia as well.

These cities are ruled by oligarchic tribal councils, and generally prosper on the red sea trade. Along with the tribal nomads, they are all tributaries of the Makurian King.

(Edit: I totally misunderstood what you meant with your earlier question.)

 

[Hobelhouse]

Oh BTW, here the updated language map.

In Spain, Mozarabesque languages that are highly unlike anything from OTL are present. Alpine dialects resemble OTL Spanish more.

In Hispania there is a tongue called Septimanian; in Francia it is called Pronvencal. They are really just part of a 'coastal' dialect continuum stretching to Liguria....

The hinterlands of Paris and Angeve are a quaint land sometimes called Lenguadouil, after their peculiar word for 'yes'. Being far from the Med and heavily influenced by the Frankish aristocracy of the Imperial Demesne it is something of a world apart from the rest of the Romance-speaking world.

A Carinthian Romance dialect, Carinzianes, has sprung up as dialect of Italian settlers in the cities and the "liberated" Xasar territories

 

[Hobelhouse]

Oh, and another update to the narrative...

---

The voyage to Adulis was a quiet one. There had been conflicting reports in Egypt of a raid on Jiddah by Somali corsairs, but they saw none, and their ships passed silently along the desert shores. Marcelo Paulici and the Arab captain had immediately acquired a certain respect for each other, as one captain to another, and Marcelo had come to be the go-between between him and the two other members of the expedition’s triumvirate. Captain Abdul-Isa and his first mate, Shenoudas (an Egyptian man shaped like a small boulder), had found Theophilos rather unnervingly intense. Valentinio d’Boso could get by in Kuptic, barely, due to his childhood education by Hellene tutors; but the native Egyptian tongue was beyond him. Marcelo’s command of the language was certainly less eloquent than Theophilos’, but then again it had been rapidly improving as of late… it was the only language the sailors spoke besides Arabic.

They had compared their knowledge of the seas. “You know, in Latin this sea is called the Red Sea. Why is that? It is certainly not red,” Marcelo had asked him once.

“Hah! We call it the Arab Sea!” said Captain Abdul-Isa.

“Of course you would,” Marcelo had replied.

But then they had come to Adulis. A city of the hushed flow of the aqueducts, quiet courtyard gardens, and raucous markets; an anthill clad in polished red and black. “Now I know!” said Marcelo as they had sighted it. “This sea must have been named after the color of this most marvelous city.” The hanging gardens, built from the ubiquitous red sandstone and black basalt, were said to be larger than those of ancient Babylon, and they loomed over the skyline well enough.

“Adulis is a great city,” said the captain, “but it is not Aden of the thousand sails.”

“Hmm,” said Marcelo. “I hope I can go there one day. I’d love to see if it’s as grand as it’s talked up to be...”

“Well, you know, you are the first Frangis I have ever seen travelling this far. You might make quite a splash there, for the sheer novelty of it if nothing else…” said the captain. “You know, when this whole business in Makuria sorts itself out.”

The captain was a canny man. The Khardishahs had made a pastime of shaking down Arab traders just as much as Frankish ones, and no Arab, whether Christian like Captain Abdul-Isa, Buddhist like the second mate Abdul-Dharma, or Saihist like the quartermaster Imru, would shed too many tears to see them overthrown. A man could stand to profit if he had friends in both Aden and the Furthest West when merchants could walk freely again.

Perhaps someday. Maybe even soon, if this expedition went well. Marcelo knew that for now his destiny laid in Makuria, though. Father Roderico, who had been effectively demoted from his position as Papal representative when they arrived in Egypt, had nevertheless retained his entourage. Marcelo’s path had been chosen when he realized that one of the father’s candidos[1] was someone he knew… his secret son, Emilio d’Boso.

[1] TTL term for apprentice priest

 

[Practical Lobster]

Good news everyone! We're up-to-date and threadmarked!

White Huns is now officially searchable. In time, New World of the White Huns will become so as well.

 

[generalurist]

That linguistic map is REALLY interesting! Few people put in such effort in their TLs! Although, the use of endonyms makes it a bit hard to read. What is "Khirichay" or Met Rhemenkeni" or "Sahu", for example?

Also, the Moravian-Saxon border seems very wild. Is there a major mixture in the border areas, or it it a sharp (albeit oddly shaped) boundary?

 

[Practical Lobster]

That linguistic map is REALLY interesting! Few people put in such effort in their TLs! Although, the use of endonyms makes it a bit hard to read. What is "Khirichay" or Met Rhemenkeni" or "Sahu", for example?

Also, the Moravian-Saxon border seems very wild. Is there a major mixture in the border areas, or it it a sharp (albeit oddly shaped) boundary?

Few people put such effort into their TLs indeed! I didn't make it, it's a fan creation. While canon-ish, I reserve the right to alter things, and the borders are a bit too clear-cut for my taste. But I like it nonetheless.

The Khirichay language is the language of the Khirichan people, a prominent group in the timeline. Met Rhemenkeni is what Hobelhouse decided the Egyptian language should be called in this timeline. In my updates, it's usually called "Coptic" for clarity.

The Sahu are one of the major Iranian nomad peoples in this timeline, along with the Xasar. They play a massive role in this timeline.

None of the border areas should be taken as sharp at all.

Edit: it also occurs to me that if you started reading from the end, it might seem like this is Hobelhouse's timeline. Which is really just a credit to his awesome guest post chain.

 

[generalurist]

Few people put such effort into their TLs indeed! I didn't make it, it's a fan creation. While canon-ish, I reserve the right to alter things, and the borders are a bit too clear-cut for my taste. But I like it nonetheless.

The Khirichay language is the language of the Khirichan people, a prominent group in the timeline. Met Rhemenkeni is what Hobelhouse decided the Egyptian language should be called in this timeline. In my updates, it's usually called "Coptic" for clarity.

The Sahu are one of the major Iranian nomad peoples in this timeline, along with the Xasar. They play a massive role in this timeline.

None of the border areas should be taken as sharp at all.

Ah, I see. I don't have time to scour the thread ATM. What language family/ethnicity are the Khirichan?

Also, most stuff I see says that it is likely that the Khazars were Turkic, unless the TTL "Xasar" are something very different.... ?

 

[Practical Lobster]

That's alright! The thread will be here whenever you have the time. The Khirichan are Turkic.

The Xasar in this timeline have very little to do with the Khazars of OTL beyond a similar name (which is derived from a Turkic word, meaning "to roam.") Their invention dates back to me realizing that the "Qas" root was a common one for nomad groups. The butterfly effect killed the OTL Khasar. The Xasar ethnic makeup though in this timeline is predominantly Iranian, although definitely intermixed with a lot of Turkic elements. By the fourteenth century (the current end date of the timeline), however, they identify with other Iranian groups more than their mixed heritage. To understand their story, it sort of requires starting at the beginning, I'm afraid.

That said, I remain more than happy to answer any questions. Also the current more active thread can be found here:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/the-new-world-of-the-white-huns.394739/

 

[Ciryatur]

Good news everyone! We're up-to-date and threadmarked!

White Huns is now officially searchable. In time, New World of the White Huns will become so as well.

Thank you.