The Other Mirages

[Michel Van]

according wiki the PS.13 Iroquois Engine. got this dimensions,
Length: 231 in or 587 cm
Diameter: 42 in or 107 cm
maximum thrust 89 kN (130 kN with afterburner)

the Mirage IIIE engine SNECMA Atar 09C
Length: 232 in or 590 cm
Diameter: 39 in or 100 cm
maximum thrust 42.0 kN (58.9 kN with afterburner)

so the PS.13 Iroquois Engine could fit with modification in fuselage of Mirage IIIE
but it fit perfect into Mirage IV mission profile

had Canada sell the PS.13 Iroquois Engine to france it would had give Mirage IV higher speed and longer range
it had also given French realistic option for Mach 3 interceptor
in 1965 the French Army think tank "Centre de prospective et d'Evaluation"
came to conclusion. that future of air combat lies in beyond supersonic

Studying the coming years of 1980s
the feasibility demand deployment of a Manned Aircraft performing a higher Mach speed,
with capacity perform several missions:
Strategic Attack, Air Defense and reconnaissance

Note crude translation into englisch

between 1965 and 1973 the French Aerospace industry work on this concept now called SAME,
Dassault work several design for SAME:
Mirage like type LZI-43, MD-750.
Variable Geometry wing like AY-4, AW4-44 and GW-2
the major problem of SAME, was again The french engines, on 13 july 1973 the program got under budget axe.
SAME was excellent exercise in aerospace engineering, sadly this remarkable program remain so obscure.

 

[Archibald]

Folks,

The Iroquois Mirage was not the Mirage IVA as we knew it, but a much bigger beast, twice as large and heavy with twice the range. So Iroquois would have had no issues fitting in the bays.

As for the Spey Mirage III-K, as I mentionned before Dassault actually managed to shoehorn a TF-30 into a Mirage III (!) the Mirage III-T testbed.
But the fact was that the Mirage III airframe had a very hard time swallowing that huge turbofan.
The flight test program was rather... eventful.
According to le Fana de l'aviation (October 1997) the Mirage III-T air intakes couldn't cope with the turbofan, and the compressor stalled repeatedly. The noise was defening, akin to the mythical 1897 "canon de 75".
Top speed was mach 1.1 and later mach 1.4, a far cry from the usual Mach 2.2.

The TF306 Mirages interest me

Here's the Mirage F2

And what essentially amounted to a VG variant of the Mirage F2, the Mirage G

And the monster that started it all, SNECMA TF-30 venture - the Mirage III-V.

An amazing aspect of that Mirage business was the rate at which Dassault flew their prototypes back then.
Mirage III-V: early 1965
Mirage F2: June 12 1966
Mirage F1: December 1966
Mirage G: June 1967
Mirage G8: May 1971

 

[bsmart]

One of the reasons not to use engines from other countries is that they gain some control over who you can sell the aircraft to. This has been particularly important when specifying advanced American engines

Also if license built engines were specified for American aircraft or production I don't see Either GE or P&W as doing the work. There were two major license built engines that I can think of. The J-65 produced from the Armstrong Sapphire design by Wright and the TF-41 based on the RR Spey and produced by Allison.

 

[Riain]

That's great information Archibald. you should update the Wikipedia article, especially the pictures.

I wonder about the tf306, by the time the f2 or G was ready for production would it use a later version of the tf30 like the f111b or d and if it would make much difference?

 

[Delta Force]

One of the reasons not to use engines from other countries is that they gain some control over who you can sell the aircraft to. This has been particularly important when specifying advanced American engines

The Mirage IV probably wasn't seen as an export product. De Gaulle didn't want the French nuclear deterrent to be dependent on foreign supplies and technology.

 

[Have Blue-117]

The Mirage IV probably wasn't seen as an export product. De Gaulle didn't want the French nuclear deterrent to be dependent on foreign supplies and technology.

Oh it was very much an export product, it was offered to many countries but no one took up on it.

 

[Just Leo]

Oh it was very much an export product, it was offered to many countries but no one took up on it.

Like the Vigilante, it was designed as a nuclear weapon delivery vehicle, with recon the only easy alternative role. Not a large market. It didn't have to be so for either, but it was.

 

[SactoMan101]

Let's say the ACF was developed to production. Would there have been a variant that would have replaced the Mirage IV in the Force de frappe nuclear strike role?

 

[Archibald]

That's great information Archibald. you should update the Wikipedia article, especially the pictures.

I wonder about the tf306, by the time the f2 or G was ready for production would it use a later version of the tf30 like the f111b or d and if it would make much difference?

Back in 1959 when planning the J-75 Mirage IVB SNECMA sold a part of its shares to Pratt&Whitney in exchange for turbofan related technological transfers.
The TF-30 saga happened in this context.
In fact SNECMA effort with turbofans was wider and earlier than the TF-30 itself.
There were variants called the TF-104, then TF-106, and then TF-306. Don't know exactly how did they related to the F-111 / F-14 turbofan, but the TF-306 was very powerful, 20 000 to 25000 pounds of thrust.
SNECMA aparenty did a rather good job solving the TF-30 issues, but I don't know if the Tomcat ever benefited from that work.
What is sure is that everything come to a halt circa 1969, when the M53 got started (needless to say the M53 greatly benefited from the TF-306 experience).

As for the ACF - yes, a two seat, nuclear strike variant was planned. In fact the ASMP cruise missile got started just for it. It finally ended on Mirage IVP and later on the 2000N.

My sources is Le Fana de l'aviation. Since 1997 or so they ran a serie of articles on prototype Mirages.

 

[Delta Force]

Let's say the ACF was developed to production. Would there have been a variant that would have replaced the Mirage IV in the Force de frappe nuclear strike role?

The Mirage 4000 and ACF were similar in size to the F-15, so perhaps a dedicated nuclear strike variant could be produced in the style of the F-15E.

 

[Archibald]

There are tons of ACF pictures on the web. The color profiles are from Le Fana de l'Aviation article on the ACF they published a while back...
I build some 1/72 scale models of the G8 / ACF / 4000 a while back.

I might reworking my alt Mirage F1E history (a different deal of the century in 1975). I've just found that in 1973 the Belgian government (Leburton) had more or less agree to buy Mirage F1 when it fell and the deal was frozen, leading to the "deal of the century" and F-16 victory.
Belgium could go for the Mirage F1E alone, leaving the other three countries going with the F-16...

 

[Just Leo]

I build some 1/72 scale models of the G8 / ACF / 4000

Why limit yourself to paper and cardboard? There's aluminum pop tins, coathanger, toothpicks and more. I fixed my car with silkspan and epoxy. You can also make your own decals from silkspan, paint and white glue.
Nice models, BTW.

 

[Archibald]

Back then I was learning and used whatever materials I had in hands.

OMG... I've stopped modelling since 2007 (and my switch of interest from modeling toward alternate history and the space program)

Yet I've just discovered that, thanks to Anigrand, sharkit and Phaedra it is now possible to build 1/72 scale kits of all the Mirage prototypes from the 1962 Balzac to the 1979 Mirage 4000.
Balzac, III-V, Mirage F2, G, G8 and 4000 are all available. It is just unbelievable. Only ten years ago I could only dream of a Mirage prototypes line-up on a shelve.