The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline

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Sersor

Sersor

Alligator said:
It will probably be 100 years before any kingdoms form in northern Europe, probably more. The agricultural technology isn't there. However, the tribes in Germania and the Baltic could adopt Hellenistic military tactics and start to migrate south.
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I think the "stirrup-war saddle" tech is quite easy to copy.
Hannibal for sure knows about this tech after the wars in Iberia
 

pjmidd

everyone has proper cavalry if they have the terrain to use it. Artillery gets copied by all the civilized states. No drivers for any of the tribal areas outside Gaul to become kingdoms as this requires someone combining them by war/threat or possibly religion. Assuming Nomad migrations are as OTL neither is likely to happen for 200 years or so ( tribal groups might get larger or move as for example happened later with the Bulgar's , Franks and Magyar's )
 
Sersor

Sersor

RogueTraderEnthusiast said:
I wouldn't be surprised to see Carthage and Rome ally with each other to take over the Megale Hellas (Italia for Rome and Hellas & League Sicily for Carthage) - if they do that now - whilst Massalia is forced to invest resources in stablising Iberia - it could cause huge economic issues for the League - or prompt a war on the overstretched League.
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Nice scenario! So lets say the next few years Rome and maybe Carthage, attack Megale Hellas League. What would Massaliot League do?
 

Deleted member 93645

Sersor said:
Nice scenario! So lets say the next few years Rome and maybe Carthage, attack Megale Hellas League. What would Massaliot League do?
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Maybe the Massaliots send an emissary to Ptolemaic Egypt to get them to attack Carthage, and both nations go to war in Megale Hellas' defense. However, if Massalia goes to war, the Iberians might form a tribal confederation and rebel.
 

RogueTraderEnthusiast

Northern Europe - introducing metallurgical improvements to the north sooner will speed up the development of the heavy plow (especially when Iron becomes more prominent). Better mining could also kick off the exploitation of Coal in Britain, which had stupendous quantities. Urbanisation maintained in the Nome system by Bretons and Greco-Bretons would certainly help create a coherent "Albion"

Until horses are quite common, I doubt in any location that they'll matter much outside of improved communications - but horses that have adapted to the desert in Africa? That will really help in expanding and establishing a widespread African League.
 

RogueTraderEnthusiast

Sersor said:
Nice scenario! So lets say the next few years Rome and maybe Carthage, attack Megale Hellas League. What would Massaliot League do?
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First I reckon they'd cut off all trade with the Romans, and turn back any ships trying to trade with the Romans where they can, and flat out raiding Roman shipping. The League has naval superiority, perhaps over both the Romans and the Carthaginians, but at least each in turn.

Massalia has shown they are capable of invading Rome by sea previously, and can probably do so again to take control of Liguria and Etruria. This would at least create a second front for the Romans to deal with.

Carthage is the real prize for Massalia in such a war however - if the troops can be spared, an invasion fleet to capture the Carthaginian coastal towns would cement Massalian dominance of trade in the W.Med forever - and advantageously Carthage has less money than ever before, which could lead to the Massalians being able to turn the Mercenary armies of Carthage against them - that coup would turn the war in Africa into a rout - that would then enable Massalia to send mercenaries to help in Italy.

The Megale Hellas Leagues survival will rely on the success of the Northern Campaign in distracting the Romans, and their own efforts to slow them in the south. If they can hold out long enough for Carthage to capitulate, then have those forces turn the tide.

This doesn't mean that Massalia is fine however - even in this circumstance, to buy out the mercs, and maintain their armies means stressing every resource an already extended Massalia has - I fully expect riots throughout Iberia - perhaps even an attempt by Hannibal and the Romans to sneak Hannibal across to Iberia to cause an insurrection - this third front is the real danger - if the Massalian League can't muster the resources, be it financial or military, to prevent this uprising, the Megale Hellas League is at huge risk, as that reinforcement army of Mercs in Africa, will be going to Iberia.

However, this all changes if somehow the Ptolemaic Empire is involved - getting them alongside would be great - difficult because of Megale Hellas though. A large relief force sent by the Ptolemaic Empire would be able to not only hold the Romans back, but perhaps push them back entirely. It may come at the cost of giving Sicily to the Ptolemaic Empire to ensure their assistance.

I can't see the Megale Hellas League being a fully coherent entity after this war - either propped up by Ptolemaic or Massalian troops. I don't believe that the Empire is interested in Italia - they have their own issues out east - which could mean that the Megale Hellas League are essentially annexed by Massalia. Alternatively they are asked to choose a leader, perhaps the King of Epirus.

Assuming Massalia, this leaves a colossal, largely overstretched League - that will be able to do little else at the moment beyond stabilize, and maintain a strong trade relationship with the Hellenic Empires of the East - and even encourage their migration to the West, so that there can be good Greek-speakers (which short of a Massaliote is the next best thing) throughout the League. The mercenary armies of Carthage remain for a long time in the service of the League, expensive peacekeepers that have little to no loyalty to the League, or its people - but useful to stomp rebellions.
 

Zireael

Alligator said:
No gold in Egypt? Did they already run out by then?

Also, was there actually a slave trade along the coast of East Africa at this time?
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Egypt had a fuck-ton of natural resources, and many deposits haven't been exhausted in modern times OTL because they are too far or too poor quality for modern needs.
For ancient needs, however, these were fine - all the Ptolemies need and more. In addition to all the resources discovered beforehand, iron deposits in the delta were mined in Ptolemaic times.

And since that empire covers the Canaan, the land there is rich in salt and can also serve as a breadbasket of the empire.

Some sources:
http://www.bullionbulletin.in/news/DtEgypt091014_files/image006.jpg
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/trades/metals.htm

(Note: I don't want to repeat the whole research I did for my own TL [Nineteenth Dynasty])
 
Sersor

Sersor

Nice points @RogueTraderEnthusiast !

RogueTraderEnthusiast said:
First I reckon they'd cut off all trade with the Romans, and turn back any ships trying to trade with the Romans where they can, and flat out raiding Roman shipping. The League has naval superiority, perhaps over both the Romans and the Carthaginians, but at least each in turn.
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The league have bigger fleet than Rome/Carthage combined(Rome has a really small fleet).

RogueTraderEnthusiast said:
Massalia has shown they are capable of invading Rome by sea previously, and can probably do so again to take control of Liguria and Etruria. This would at least create a second front for the Romans to deal with.
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Yes this is more than likely to happen.

RogueTraderEnthusiast said:
The Megale Hellas Leagues survival will rely on the success of the Northern Campaign in distracting the Romans, and their own efforts to slow them in the south. If they can hold out long enough for Carthage to capitulate, then have those forces turn the tide.
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Without help from the Massaliot League, Megale hellas is doomed. They can count in the help of Sparta but i cant see them asking Epirus or Ptolemaic Empire for help.

RogueTraderEnthusiast said:
perhaps even an attempt by Hannibal and the Romans to sneak Hannibal across to Iberia to cause an insurrection
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Great idea. Although i would love the irony of Hannibal crossing the Alps in the opposite direction.

RogueTraderEnthusiast said:
I can't see the Megale Hellas League being a fully coherent entity after this war - either propped up by Ptolemaic or Massalian troops. I don't believe that the Empire is interested in Italia - they have their own issues out east - which could mean that the Megale Hellas League are essentially annexed by Massalia. Alternatively they are asked to choose a leader, perhaps the King of Epirus.
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You are right. I cant see Megale Hellas surviving.

RogueTraderEnthusiast said:
(which short of a Massaliote is the next best thing)
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Well said!That is their mentality exactly.
 

Aishio

A "tribes of Iberia map"
I think the Massalian Conquest was way too easy for them. For example, we didnt hear about the Lusitani. The Lusitani kicked Rome's ass a couple of times before their leader was murdered by traitors and resistance fell. The Arevaci too, they were one of the great tribes of the peninsula. I think they wouldnt sit at their homes while their overlords changed, they would kick the Massalian ass a couple times, maybe with help of foreign nations, then fall to superior armies
Also, what's with Diodotos and Antiochos III (the Great? or not, in this tl?)
Great tl real pleasure to read. You could make a book with it if it was more detailed
 
Sersor

Sersor

Aishio said:
For example, we didnt hear about the Lusitani. The Lusitani kicked Rome's ass a couple of times before their leader was murdered by traitors and resistance fell. The Arevaci too, they were one of the great tribes of the peninsula. I think they wouldnt sit at their homes while their overlords changed, they would kick the Massalian ass a couple times, maybe with help of foreign nations, then fall to superior armies
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The Lusitani and Arevaci(Celtiberi tribe) joined Barcid Kingdom against the League and lost. Ofc major rebelions as in OTL against Rome, can happen. There is a "detailed"map of Iberia in 230 BC of this timeline.

Aishio said:
Great tl real pleasure to read. You could make a book with it if it was more detailed
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Thank you! I am afraid i don't have the skills for a book :(
 
Historyman 14

Historyman 14

Sersor said:
Nahh. Way to difficult to happen. Maybe a ship goes there by mistake? There is not available the tech level needed for a regular contact.
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That's seem likely, a ship blow way off course to somewhere in the Americans, or even a island in the North Atlantic and it would be fun. Maybe flash forward to the future and have a archaeologist team find what's left of the ship and crew.
 

pjmidd

Ships at this time would not be up to a voyage over the North Atlantic. They would not carry supplies for long enough ( most expected to be at most a couple of days between landfalls ) and navigation out of sight of land is a rare and very poor art. Compass has not yet been invented and ships of this time designed for the med cannot handle Atlantic storms. The ones built for the Atlantic were coastal and prayed if they crossed the channel let alone proper open sea.
 
223 BC Popullation map and demographics.
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    • Sersor

    Sersor

    223 BC
    Data update vol2

    TJX5s8A.jpg


    Top 10 cities

    Alexandria 350000 pop
    Pataliputra 350000
    Massalia 280000
    Syracuse 250000
    Pratisthana 250000
    Carthage 200000
    Seleucia 200000
    Antioch 150000
    Ujjain 150000
    Rome 100000

    Top 5 richest states

    Ptolemaic Empire
    Seleucids Empire
    Diodotian Empire
    Satavahana Kingdom
    Massaliot League

    Estimate of the Population of this ATL

    Greek peninsula 2,5 mil pop
    Anatolia 7 mil(1 mil Greeks)
    Greater Syria 4 mil(0,4 mil Greeks)
    Egypt 4,5 mil(0,4+ mil Greeks)
    Italy 3 mil(0,3+ mil Greeks)
    Sicily 0,7
    Iberia 3 mil
    North Gaul 3mil
    North Balkans 2 mil
    South Gaul 1,8mil(0,5+ mil Greeks)
    Persia/central asia 25+ mil(0,5+ mil Greeks)
    India 45+ Mil

    Many thanks to @RogueTraderEnthusiast for his tips!

    Some pop data links:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_Roman_Empire
    https://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/fischer-bovet/100701.pdf
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_demography#Further_reading
     
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