Are Hannibal and Scipio Africanus still here or are they butterflied?A Hannibal-Scipio tag team for the next war's gonna be an interesting combination.
The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline
- Thread starter Sersor
- Start date
Not sure if i can use it, but nice idea.
Scipio was born in 235 BC and Hannibal in 247 BC.
Yes a North Sea expansion is really interesting and I am planning to write more about it. Any suggestions?
Maybe Greeks in Norway, Denmark and Sweden? The Baltic?
The UK and Ierland would be good places for the Massaliot Greeks to show up.
It may lead to my biggest concern - the rise of independence movements, or sections, within the League. Naucratis is vital for maintaining firm control over the league, but in the Baltic? Where they'll be dependent on intermediary cities in Jutland, Britannia, and only then Naucratis, and as such the League proper.
Unless the League sets up a strong military presence that is loyal to the League first, then as those trade posts evolve into hybrid cities the League may lose control.
However, in the short term? I'm excited to see Greco-Slavic and Greco-Germanic communities, and the evolution of the trade ships. Would the League not benefit from taking the Venetii over? A swift war after the Mediterranean war is over could turn them from pirates and potential pirates, into a source of sailors and shipwrights for the League.
Good points. The rise of independence is a big concern. Venetii can be a good ally.
257 BC. The end of Triandria war. World map.
257 BC
The end of Triandria war
The battle of Zama
Hamilcar led an army composed of mercenaries, local citizens, and veterans and strong Numidian cavalry. Ptolemy II led a mix of Ptolemaic,Massaliot League and Syracuse armies. The battle took place near Zama. Hamilcar was first to march and reach the plains of Zama Regia, which were suitable for cavalry manoeuvring. Hamilcar army consisted of forty eight thousands infantry, five thousands strong Numibian cavalry, and forty war elephants, while PtolemyII had a total of Fifty two thousands (28,000 Ptolemy 20,000 Massalia and 4,000 Syracuse) and forty elephants. The cavalry was around six thousands.
Putting his cavalry on the flanks, Hamilcar aligned the rest of his troops in three straight lines behind his elephants. The first line consisted of mixed infantry of mercenaries from CeltiIberia, and the Balearic islands. In his second line he placed the Carthaginian and Libyan citizen levies, while his veterans from Sicily were placed in the third line. PtolemyII deployed in the right center his phalanxes and in the left center the two tagmata of Massaliot League. Behind them were the rest of the allies.In the flanks Ptolemaic cavalry was in the right and Massaliotes in the left. Inspired by Pyrrhus, Ptolemy II held his war elephants, in reserve.
At the outset of the battle, Hamilcar unleashed his elephants and skirmishers against the Greek troops in order to break the cohesion of their lines and exploit the breaches that could be opened.The attack was confronted by the Massaliot League artillery with great success. Half of the elephants died before even reach the Greek lines. At this point, Ptolemy II deployed his war elephants against the right flank of the Carthaginians and the mounted archers of Massaliot League to charge the left flank. After a while the right Carthaginian flank collapsed and this lead to a general collapse for the Carthaginian forces. This was a heavy loss for Carthage. Eighteen thousands died and another nine thousands sold as slaves. Greek losses were five thousands. Defeated on their home ground, the Carthaginian ruling elite sued for peace and accepted humiliating terms, ending the seven years war.
Peace terms
The terms of the “Treaty of Zama” designed by the Greeks were particularly heavy for Carthage, which had lost all bargaining power following its defeat at the Zama. Both sides agreed upon:
By place
Greece
Triandria alliance members: Massaliot League,Epirus,Ptolemaic empire,Rhodes League,Sparta,Syracuse.
The end of Triandria war
The battle of Zama
Hamilcar led an army composed of mercenaries, local citizens, and veterans and strong Numidian cavalry. Ptolemy II led a mix of Ptolemaic,Massaliot League and Syracuse armies. The battle took place near Zama. Hamilcar was first to march and reach the plains of Zama Regia, which were suitable for cavalry manoeuvring. Hamilcar army consisted of forty eight thousands infantry, five thousands strong Numibian cavalry, and forty war elephants, while PtolemyII had a total of Fifty two thousands (28,000 Ptolemy 20,000 Massalia and 4,000 Syracuse) and forty elephants. The cavalry was around six thousands.
Putting his cavalry on the flanks, Hamilcar aligned the rest of his troops in three straight lines behind his elephants. The first line consisted of mixed infantry of mercenaries from CeltiIberia, and the Balearic islands. In his second line he placed the Carthaginian and Libyan citizen levies, while his veterans from Sicily were placed in the third line. PtolemyII deployed in the right center his phalanxes and in the left center the two tagmata of Massaliot League. Behind them were the rest of the allies.In the flanks Ptolemaic cavalry was in the right and Massaliotes in the left. Inspired by Pyrrhus, Ptolemy II held his war elephants, in reserve.
At the outset of the battle, Hamilcar unleashed his elephants and skirmishers against the Greek troops in order to break the cohesion of their lines and exploit the breaches that could be opened.The attack was confronted by the Massaliot League artillery with great success. Half of the elephants died before even reach the Greek lines. At this point, Ptolemy II deployed his war elephants against the right flank of the Carthaginians and the mounted archers of Massaliot League to charge the left flank. After a while the right Carthaginian flank collapsed and this lead to a general collapse for the Carthaginian forces. This was a heavy loss for Carthage. Eighteen thousands died and another nine thousands sold as slaves. Greek losses were five thousands. Defeated on their home ground, the Carthaginian ruling elite sued for peace and accepted humiliating terms, ending the seven years war.
Peace terms
The terms of the “Treaty of Zama” designed by the Greeks were particularly heavy for Carthage, which had lost all bargaining power following its defeat at the Zama. Both sides agreed upon:
- Atlantic trade is now a Massaliot League monopoly.
- Pillars of Hercules opens again for Greeks.
- Carthage returns their prisoners of war without ransom, while paying a heavy ransom on their own.
- Carthage transfers Corsica and Sardinia to Massaliot League.
- Carthage evacuates all of the small islands between Sicily and Africa
- Carthage pays a 2,500 talents of silver indemnity in ten annual installments, plus an additional indemnity of 1,500 talents immediately.
- Carthage transfers her holdings in Sicily between Massaliot League,Ptolemaic Egypt and Syracuse.
- Carthage transfers her holdings in Lybia to Ptolemaic Egypt.
By place
Greece
- Pyrrhus returned in Greece and conquered the Tylisians in a easy campaign.
- Antiochus II in a rather easy campaign conquered Armenia and Atropatane.
Triandria alliance members: Massaliot League,Epirus,Ptolemaic empire,Rhodes League,Sparta,Syracuse.
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Commando Howiezter
Banned
Maybe have Selucids look to the north (Parthia) or east (India)? Parthia is certainly doable at this point before they get as powerful as OTL later on, and India was always a dream for the Diadochi...with access to all the wealth of the East, I think that the Greeks would have a good shot at taking good chunks of India, especially with Maurya's death....
Rome will not forget nor will it forgive. Their manpower pool will replenish within a few years, and the defeats they suffered ITTL although bloodbaths, were not quite the Cannae and various other defeats the Roman suffered IOTL. If the Greeks in Magna Graecia get short sighted and squabbling again Rome might very well succeed in subjugating them again. Or, they could look north and kick out the celts there. But, they will be spoiling for a fight.
Carthage is massively weakened, and with the Med closed off they might look to expand in Iberia, focusing their efforts there. Punic Iberia?
Epirus is doing well (which is great) and if Phyrrus and his descendants can do well then I can see it remain a major power.
Masslia will probably expand some more all over Europe.....
Gonna type up the rest of my response later...
Rome will not forget nor will it forgive. Their manpower pool will replenish within a few years, and the defeats they suffered ITTL although bloodbaths, were not quite the Cannae and various other defeats the Roman suffered IOTL. If the Greeks in Magna Graecia get short sighted and squabbling again Rome might very well succeed in subjugating them again. Or, they could look north and kick out the celts there. But, they will be spoiling for a fight.
Carthage is massively weakened, and with the Med closed off they might look to expand in Iberia, focusing their efforts there. Punic Iberia?
Epirus is doing well (which is great) and if Phyrrus and his descendants can do well then I can see it remain a major power.
Masslia will probably expand some more all over Europe.....
Gonna type up the rest of my response later...
Nice ideas. Looking forward for the rest. I think a war between Seleucids and Ptolemaic is also a strong possibility.
Commando Howiezter
Banned
Pergammon might decide to join the Triandra, if the Selcuids decide to get pushy about Asia Minor, although that doesn't bode well for future peace.
Epirus might expand north at the expense of the Illyrians, with possibility of the Romans helping them, triggering another war.....Thrace will also be a prime target for expansion, with colonies on the Black Sea perhaps? IOTL there was a Bosporan kingdom there....
Egypt is also a big winner from this war, having gained footholds in Syracuse and Afirca, and these might provide new tax bases and manpower in a future war against the Seleucids.....also south into Axum would also bring riches as well as more men to fight the Seleucids.
The Mercenaries of Carthage, huge in number, with Carthage bankrupt and poor, might very well rebel, and with Carthage so weakened I think that it might be more successful then IOTL, and even if they did get put down I can see Carthage permanently shifting away from mercenaries to a true "Carthaginian" army.
Sparta and Rhodes, the minor powers, might look to expand their influences across the Aegan and maybe even Crete, and win prestige and treasures....
Syracuse would probably covet the rest of Sicily without the means to get it.
In regards to Egypt vs Near East, if they can make the expansions that and accommodate native Egyptians into the army without oppressing them or making them hate the Greeks then they might be able to hold a line at the OTL Suez Canal, although they might very well lose their holdings in Cilcia and Syria. But it would be much cooler for the mighty Seleucids to focus their strength against the Indians.....
Celtiberians wouldn't like Carthage one bit. Maybe a Viriathus-esque figure to kick them out? Numdians might also get jumpy if Carthage is weakened....
Just some suggestions.....
Epirus might expand north at the expense of the Illyrians, with possibility of the Romans helping them, triggering another war.....Thrace will also be a prime target for expansion, with colonies on the Black Sea perhaps? IOTL there was a Bosporan kingdom there....
Egypt is also a big winner from this war, having gained footholds in Syracuse and Afirca, and these might provide new tax bases and manpower in a future war against the Seleucids.....also south into Axum would also bring riches as well as more men to fight the Seleucids.
The Mercenaries of Carthage, huge in number, with Carthage bankrupt and poor, might very well rebel, and with Carthage so weakened I think that it might be more successful then IOTL, and even if they did get put down I can see Carthage permanently shifting away from mercenaries to a true "Carthaginian" army.
Sparta and Rhodes, the minor powers, might look to expand their influences across the Aegan and maybe even Crete, and win prestige and treasures....
Syracuse would probably covet the rest of Sicily without the means to get it.
In regards to Egypt vs Near East, if they can make the expansions that and accommodate native Egyptians into the army without oppressing them or making them hate the Greeks then they might be able to hold a line at the OTL Suez Canal, although they might very well lose their holdings in Cilcia and Syria. But it would be much cooler for the mighty Seleucids to focus their strength against the Indians.....
Celtiberians wouldn't like Carthage one bit. Maybe a Viriathus-esque figure to kick them out? Numdians might also get jumpy if Carthage is weakened....
Just some suggestions.....
Hecatee
Donor
I think all actors except maybe Seleucia and Egypt are currently rather exhausted. Thus I can see between 5 and 10 years of peace during which we could see minor operations in Corsica and Sardinia for Massalia, as well as strenghtening the recently founded cities in Gaul, but rather little expension.
In Italy, we could see the Magna Graecia cities squabling a bit but they must still face the italic tribes from the interior, including the Samnites. While those tribes have suffered losses too they might still hope to get some of the coastal cities they don't own yet, maybe even a renewed attempt at controlling Campania.
The Etruscans may also use Rome's weakness as an opportunity to rise against the city and attempt to regain autonomy for their various cities.
We could also have a Gallic invasion of Etruria and Latium, with tribes from both transalpine and cisalpine Gaul attracted by the perceived weakness of Rome, of which they'd have heard through the Massaliote Celts.
Carthage will be in too much troubles to expend much during this period of rebuilding, and the defeat on African soil puts it much closer to the situation at the end of the second Punic war than the 1st. After the first they had still enough ressources to colonize Hiberia, under the leadership of a strong family who made it a quasi-private enterprise. Here ? Not sure they can, especially if they have to face a mercenary war while still paying their dues.
In Greece, Pyrrhus is now 61. He's got a large kingdom to rule, vast ressources to enjoy. I could well imagine him enjoying some rest until death comes, either from old age or because his son Alexander II thinks he's taking too long. Either way there will be a consolidation period going on, and alliances will be re-examined by the new king. He may well want to either insure full dominance over Greece or go against a northern foe, either the traditional ennemy of Epirus, Ilyria, or against Thrace.
Sparta might attempt an expedition against Crete, it'll depend on its manpower situation, but don't forget that by this time Ptolemy has bases on the island and may not be happy to let Sparta run amok in the region.
Seleucids may either attempt to consolidate internally, try to go against Egypt, or go East. Actually I don't think they'd want to go against Ptolemy's victorious veterans and their numerous allies, so if they move it'd probably be East. Going against Pergame would have too much chances of drawing a full coalition against them.
Egypt has not many opportunities to stike due to geography. Too much deserts souths to go against Axoum, peace treaty west with Carthage and no chances to dislodge the desert tribes of Lybia, no intention to over-extend in Anatolia of fight the Seleucid, so it only leaves the arab cities (Petrae, ...) and the Red Sea area. Or concentrate on massive infrastructure projects such as the Ptolemies liked. I would also consider them to be most interested in the research happening in Massalia, especially after the efficiency of the Massalian artillery in the battle of Zama. I could see a new artillery corp being a nasty surprise against the next Seleucid army to come their way, and the key to some big victories before the Seleucids do adapt.
In Italy, we could see the Magna Graecia cities squabling a bit but they must still face the italic tribes from the interior, including the Samnites. While those tribes have suffered losses too they might still hope to get some of the coastal cities they don't own yet, maybe even a renewed attempt at controlling Campania.
The Etruscans may also use Rome's weakness as an opportunity to rise against the city and attempt to regain autonomy for their various cities.
We could also have a Gallic invasion of Etruria and Latium, with tribes from both transalpine and cisalpine Gaul attracted by the perceived weakness of Rome, of which they'd have heard through the Massaliote Celts.
Carthage will be in too much troubles to expend much during this period of rebuilding, and the defeat on African soil puts it much closer to the situation at the end of the second Punic war than the 1st. After the first they had still enough ressources to colonize Hiberia, under the leadership of a strong family who made it a quasi-private enterprise. Here ? Not sure they can, especially if they have to face a mercenary war while still paying their dues.
In Greece, Pyrrhus is now 61. He's got a large kingdom to rule, vast ressources to enjoy. I could well imagine him enjoying some rest until death comes, either from old age or because his son Alexander II thinks he's taking too long. Either way there will be a consolidation period going on, and alliances will be re-examined by the new king. He may well want to either insure full dominance over Greece or go against a northern foe, either the traditional ennemy of Epirus, Ilyria, or against Thrace.
Sparta might attempt an expedition against Crete, it'll depend on its manpower situation, but don't forget that by this time Ptolemy has bases on the island and may not be happy to let Sparta run amok in the region.
Seleucids may either attempt to consolidate internally, try to go against Egypt, or go East. Actually I don't think they'd want to go against Ptolemy's victorious veterans and their numerous allies, so if they move it'd probably be East. Going against Pergame would have too much chances of drawing a full coalition against them.
Egypt has not many opportunities to stike due to geography. Too much deserts souths to go against Axoum, peace treaty west with Carthage and no chances to dislodge the desert tribes of Lybia, no intention to over-extend in Anatolia of fight the Seleucid, so it only leaves the arab cities (Petrae, ...) and the Red Sea area. Or concentrate on massive infrastructure projects such as the Ptolemies liked. I would also consider them to be most interested in the research happening in Massalia, especially after the efficiency of the Massalian artillery in the battle of Zama. I could see a new artillery corp being a nasty surprise against the next Seleucid army to come their way, and the key to some big victories before the Seleucids do adapt.
True.
Samnites are vassals of Pyrrhus at the moment but still this is possible.
Nice idea
A mercenary war is happening 100%
Spartan reforms is about to start.
You are in my mind!
I would like to see how each nation are doing with the war over, and how they see it, and all that.
I would love to learn more about that Massaliot League part of England, and see more Greek growth into the North Sea and the Baltic.
And maybe the victories can start building some great temples, or monuments. Or maybe some stuff on any heroes, or myths to come from the war.