The Low Countries Join The German Empire in 1871

[NOMISYRRUC]

Exactly what it says on the tin...

Have the Kingdoms of Belgium and the Netherlands along with the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg join the German Empire on its formation in 1871. There must be a minimum number of changes before then and preferably the PODs must be no earlier than 1815.

I'm guessing that:

1. It would be relatively easy to integrate Luxembourg as it was in the Zollverein at the time;
2. It would be difficult to get The Netherlands to join, but not ASB;
3. It would be very difficult to get Belgium to join, because even if the Belgians wanted to join the other great powers want to maintain Belgium as an independent and neutral nation.

I'm not expecting this to be feasible but...

My suggestion is that the Kingdom of the United Netherlands does not break up in 1831, becomes very pro-German, joins the Zollverein, is an ally of Prussia in the Franco-Prussian war and joins the German Empire on its formation.

 

[pompejus]

Yeah, no.
There is no way the Netherlands would join Germany willingly with a POD after 1600.

Ok, to be fair there are a couple of way for the Netherlands to join Germany willingly if they are conquered and occupied by another country (like France or Spain). But no, you can not think of a way for the Netherlands to join Germany.

 

[HJ Tulp]

Yeah, no.
There is no way the Netherlands would join Germany willingly with a POD after 1600.

Ok, to be fair there are a couple of way for the Netherlands to join Germany willingly if they are conquered and occupied by another country (like France or Spain). But no, you can not think of a way for the Netherlands to join Germany.

What if a escalating Belgian Revolution crushes the Netherlands? I could perhaps see a rump Netherlands maybe looking for help from the Germans.

 

[LSCatilina]

Why would France, Prussia and Britain just let Belgium have its way with Netherlands? IOTL, they were pretty much about preventing a rupture of the regional balance.

 

[HJ Tulp]

Why would France, Prussia and Britain just let Belgium have its way with Netherlands? IOTL, they were pretty much about preventing a rupture of the regional balance.

I was more thinking about a French intervention going hot. Far-fetched for sure but that's why it's a AHC

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

But no, you can not think of a way for the Netherlands to join Germany.

Correct, I couldn't, which is why I started the thread.

To be serious the thread was inspired in part by some other threads where it had been said that the Dutch Government and people were pro-German in the second half of the nineteenth century and up to World War One. For example on the Netherlands joins the Central Powers thread.

 

[avernite]

I can sort of see it happen if the nucleus of Germany shifts significantly, but again, the PODs for that must be in the 1600's at latest and probably before the Reformation (thus almost certainly turning the Netherlands into something different, too). Probably need somekind of Rhenish power (Cologne, Jülich-Berg, Palatinate) to come to dominate all of the German Rhine, which eventually gives it the power to unite Germany and annex the Netherlands without TOO big difficulty. It would still be annexing, probably, but a few decades later the Netherlands might fit in a Rhenish Germany (of course this sacrifices original-Prussia, Austria, and possibly Brandenburg+Bavaria as part of Germany).

 

[pompejus]

Correct, I couldn't, which is why I started the thread.

To be serious the thread was inspired in part by some other threads where it had been said that the Dutch Government and people were pro-German in the second half of the nineteenth century and up to World War One. For example on the Netherlands joins the Central Powers thread.

They were kind of pro-German, but in a a keep them at a distance sort of way. A very large part of Dutch diplomatic history was to keep the Netherlands falling into the German sphere or becoming German. For example, when it looked like a German noble could inherit the Dutch throne, the Dutch constitution to avoid it, or at least force them to make a choice to either chose the Netherlands or Germany (well a German principality). The thing is, the Dutch identity was too strongly developed in the 19th century. The Dutch weren't German. They didn't think themselves as German and other didn't see them as German either. The Dutch did not want to be part of Germany and the Germans did not care for them to join. It is very hard to change it. It is kind of like asking France to join Italy, simply because Gaul was part of the Roman Empire.

 

[LSCatilina]

and the Germans did not care for them to join

Well, to be honest, part of Pangemanist ideas did made their ways into governemental and military programs, and you had talks about a deeper connection between Netherlands and Germany as a middle-term goal in 1914.

 

[Xgentis]

Belgium would never join Germany willingly.

 

[LSCatilina]

Belgium would never join Germany willingly.

Well, it may be that in some TL (as a victorious CP TL), nobody really ask them anything.

 

[pompejus]

Well, to be honest, part of Pangemanist ideas did made their ways into governemental and military programs, and you had talks about a deeper connection between Netherlands and Germany as a middle-term goal in 1914.

Maybe I should have said they did not care enough.

Belgium would never join Germany willingly.

Agreed, Belgium is even more unlikely than the Netherlands to join Germany, since it was effectively a Francophone country (even if the majority of the people did not speak French).

 

[avernite]

Maybe I should have said they did not care enough.

Agreed, Belgium is even more unlikely than the Netherlands to join Germany, since it was effectively a Francophone country (even if the majority of the people did not speak French).

While that is true, Belgium has the 'advantage' of not being a country until 1830, and part of a German state until the revolutionary wars. It requires a ton more changes from around 1750, but I could imagine a case where Belgium as the Habsburg Netherlands is dragged along into Germany if Austria joins or creates said Germany.

 

[pompejus]

While that is true, Belgium has the 'advantage' of not being a country until 1830, and part of a German state until the revolutionary wars. It requires a ton more changes from around 1750, but I could imagine a case where Belgium as the Habsburg Netherlands is dragged along into Germany if Austria joins or creates said Germany.

To be fair, I was think of a POD around 1830 or later. With an earlier POD I could see what is now Belgium end up being part of some kind of entity that is comparable to Germany OTL. With a POD 1750 Belgium might end up part of Germany, but with a POD I think there is a good chance there won't be a Germany.

 

[avernite]

To be fair, I was think of a POD around 1830 or later. With an earlier POD I could see what is now Belgium end up being part of some kind of entity that is comparable to Germany OTL. With a POD 1750 Belgium might end up part of Germany, but with a POD I think there is a good chance there won't be a Germany.

I agree, with 1830 I can more likely see the Netherlands joining than Belgium. But with pre-revolution, I consider Belgium more likely by a mile from 1600 or so onwards.

 

[Bosemacher]

Here is a marginally possible sequence in events.
In 1830 Prussia is instrumental in helping the Netherlands crush the Belgium rebellion.
The Netherlands joins the Prussian led customs union.
The Netherlands supports Prussia in the Austro-Prussian war and joins the North German Confederation retaining its own army, navy, Dutch language and rule of colonies.
Franc0-Prussian war results in the formation of Germany. The Netherlands retains all rights it had in the NGC.

 

[pompejus]

Here is a marginally possible sequence in events.
In 1830 Prussia is instrumental in helping the Netherlands crush the Belgium rebellion.
The Netherlands joins the Prussian led customs union.
The Netherlands supports Prussia in the Austro-Prussian war and joins the North German Confederation retaining its own army, navy, Dutch language and rule of colonies.
Franc0-Prussian war results in the formation of Germany. The Netherlands retains all rights it had in the NGC.

Why? There is no reason for the Netherlands to do such a thing. It goes completely against all Dutch politics in the 19th century. The Dutch never had any intention to join the German customs union, at all.

 

[Bosemacher]

Why? There is no reason for the Netherlands to do such a thing. It goes completely against all Dutch politics in the 19th century. The Dutch never had any intention to join the German customs union, at all.

That is why I said marginal. Maybe borderline ASB would have been more accurate. The easiest POD for the Low Countries to remain part of Germany is to prevent the Burgundian inheritance from being transferred to Spain but 1548 is significantly before 1815.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Not the answers I was looking for, but still very interesting. AFAIK Dutch and Flemish were originally dialects of German. How far back is it necessary to go to stop them developing into separate languages?

 

[justinNL]

Actually the early form of Dutch was a Franconian dialect spoken by the Salian Franks in the fifth century. It forced Old Frisian back form the western coast to the North of the Low Countries.