The House of Palaiologos, Against the Tide: An Eastern Roman Timeline

Probably true, but (as I actually live in but am not native to the American South East) the transition might have been smoother in that example if there was some example of black heroism for the confederacy. Instead, they felt totally justified by the fact that the blood spilt to free the blacks was that of white men. If the blacks had freed themselves, there might have been more respect and less KKK. If the blacks had saved the confederacy's ass, then that would probably lead to significant social shake ups, even if not the immediate abolition of slavery. Still, it is an interesting comparison, and I will take into account. I hope that the level of at arms length that the Greeks and Latins are from eachother seems good to you.

I think that the feelings Greeks had towards Latins were a mixture of common racism and bigotry, and burning resentment at their subordination by Latins over the years- it's a resentment that would keep building every time they looked over at Galata, of course. Such feelings can be overcome, but it's going to be a difficult process taking many decades, and I think there'd be a good deal of violence on both sides, but especially in terms of Greek-on-Latin violence in Constantinople itself.

Like I say, though, for now you're being optimistic but not ASB. I think the fact that the Empire's still essentially dependent on the machinations of various other powers is well considered- it's going to be quite some time, again, decades at minimum, before she can really become a major player again.

Finally, I can't see Constantinople becoming such a major centre of trade again for a fair while, especially with the existence of Genoa, and the opening of various Mameluke ports to Italian trade.

Looking forward to the next update. :)
 
Constantinople will not be able to be a center of trade for long with the new world and the age of exploration that destroyed Venice importance OTL I can't see Constantinople doing so well. The emperor need a real ally in the west a powerfull one.
 
Constantinople will not be able to be a center of trade for long with the new world and the age of exploration that destroyed Venice importance OTL I can't see Constantinople doing so well. The emperor need a real ally in the west a powerfull one.

Perhaps that's so to become a Great Power again, but the Greeks can cope well enough slowly pulling themselves back together as a minor force in the Eastern Mediterranean and Black Sea. It'd be helpful if New World colonisation could be put off by a few decades or so though, certainly.
 
Perhaps that's so to become a Great Power again, but the Greeks can cope well enough slowly pulling themselves back together as a minor force in the Eastern Mediterranean and Black Sea. It'd be helpful if New World colonisation could be put off by a few decades or so though, certainly.
Personaly I would not like that if the New World colonisation is retarded too mutch.
 
Last edited:
Sidheach Radu is indeed still a part of Mehmed's retinue, but he hasn't been used yet. He is one of Mehmed's greatest remaining weapons, especially given that the Vlad had the least losses in the crusade. I havn't yet decided upon his role, but both brothers will be more important TTL.

Well I'm not sure of Mehmed would give the same level of support to Radu if he sent him off to overthrow Vlad, I honestly don't think Mehmed has the same resources to just throw around this time round. Granted though I can imagine Radu becoming very important inside Mehmeds court however.
 
Xgentis, thus far England is actually the same as OTL, and will continue on that way for about the first half of the Wars of the Roses, right about up until Edward IV takes control. After that I intend to shake things up. As for the new world, I think it will be discovered around the same time, but I have been thinking of delaying full scale colonization by a bit, for reasons that I will make quite clear, rather than chalking it up to butterflies. Lets just say that Spain is gonna be a very different place TTL.

CELTICEMPIRE, Glad to have you aboard good sir, please enjoy the ride:D

Basileus Giorgios, too true, I actually have a major anti-Latin demonstration thought up that will surprize you, but it requires a stronger pope than Callixtus III, so I'll need a few years before it can come about.

As a trade city, Constantinople is still second class, but it still has the ability to regulate all commerce inside the black sea, and this is still better than your average city can boast. Ultimately, the army and navy are the keys, since Constantinople can effectively sever medditeranean-black sea trade, provided that it is more profitable to pay them off than to wage war with them. At thgis point Constantine has no warships, and has decided to appease foreign merchants rather than alienate them, but in future that may change, and help improve the empire's circumstances then, as having a navy is something that, so long as it is well managed, has no real downside (since a well managed navy will create a profit by it's existance and use greater than the cost of it's upkeep).

And, as I said above, the new world is going to have very different effects than it did OTL, although large scale colonization will most likely occur sooner or later TTL.

Sidheach, Radu will be used conservatively, but he will be used. He is by this point among Mehmed's more valuable allies, and Mehmed is certainly smart enough to recognize this and use him accordingly.

A question for the board: can anyone recommend a free software on which to design a map for my TL? If all else fails I guess I could use MS paint or something, but if there is a better alternative I would definitely be willing to take it.
 
A question for the board: can anyone recommend a free software on which to design a map for my TL? If all else fails I guess I could use MS paint or something, but if there is a better alternative I would definitely be willing to take it.

Paint.
That's the universally used program here to make UCS and QBAM maps.
If you want to get all facy looking though you got to get GIMP and do more work than necessary.
 
Paint.
That's the universally used program here to make UCS and QBAM maps.
If you want to get all facy looking though you got to get GIMP and do more work than necessary.

I think the correct name is Paint.net (at least in my country just by "paint" we mean the microsoft program).
 
I think the correct name is Paint.net (at least in my country just by "paint" we mean the microsoft program).

I am talking about Paint the microsoft program.
Pain.net is horrible since it indexs colours so that you can't properly use the simple UCS ones.
 
Well, if it's standard here, then I guess I will just use MS paint. Either way the map won't change too much for a little while (since the national borders are pretty much the 1450 ones, with the exception of the two seperate Ottoman states).

Thanks!
 
Just have to say, I normally dont like Byzantine Timelines, but I find anything with a POD this late pretty fascinating. I'll be watching this without a doubt.
 
As a trade city, Constantinople is still second class, but it still has the ability to regulate all commerce inside the black sea, and this is still better than your average city can boast. Ultimately, the army and navy are the keys, since Constantinople can effectively sever medditeranean-black sea trade, provided that it is more profitable to pay them off than to wage war with them. At thgis point Constantine has no warships, and has decided to appease foreign merchants rather than alienate them, but in future that may change, and help improve the empire's circumstances then, as having a navy is something that, so long as it is well managed, has no real downside (since a well managed navy will create a profit by it's existance and use greater than the cost of it's upkeep).

Re. Constantinople's ability to regulate Black Sea commerce, I'm not really sure how true this is. With the Genoese in Galata and thus having access to the Golden Horn, any attempt by the Greeks to shut Genoese merchants out of the Black Sea is not going to end well. Plus, the Morea is a tempting target for any Genoese adventurer.

Regarding a fleet- with the benefit of hindsight, this may be true, but I'm really not sure. The Byzantines had been downgrading their fleet since the days of Basil II, after all. That said, there were attempts by OTL Palaiologan Emperors to rebuild a fleet, so perhaps it's not too unlikely.
 
Re. Constantinople's ability to regulate Black Sea commerce, I'm not really sure how true this is. With the Genoese in Galata and thus having access to the Golden Horn, any attempt by the Greeks to shut Genoese merchants out of the Black Sea is not going to end well. Plus, the Morea is a tempting target for any Genoese adventurer.

Regarding a fleet- with the benefit of hindsight, this may be true, but I'm really not sure. The Byzantines had been downgrading their fleet since the days of Basil II, after all. That said, there were attempts by OTL Palaiologan Emperors to rebuild a fleet, so perhaps it's not too unlikely.

Wasn't there a semi-decent navy under Manuel I?

Still, it's telling that the army has taken first priority by the empires that haven't just gut the military in general.
 
Wasn't there a semi-decent navy under Manuel I?

Still, it's telling that the army has taken first priority by the empires that haven't just gut the military in general.
Yeah Manuel I had a navy that was I think like 80-100 ships. It survived until the 4th crusade and afterword Michael VIII recreated a navy of roughly the same size but it was decommissioned by Andronikos II Paleologos because he couldn't afford the funds to keep it.
 
Enigmajones, Glad to hear it. With as developed as western europe is by now, it probably wont become as Byzantine-centric as most Byzantine TL's, so expect some action in the west just as soon as Henry IV of Castille, Henry VI of England, Charles VII of France, and Pope Callixtus die, since they are among the four worst rulers to write about.

Basileus Giorgios, It was definitely a Palaiologan policy to rebuild the navy, and really the military as a whole, but Andronicus II was an awful ruler, and he just happened to rule for like 70 years, probably as the primary cause of the empire's final decline. In a world where might is right, disbaning almost all of your military like some kind of, ANGELOS, is definitely a bad idea.

Fredrick II Barbarossa & Elfwine, I think that there was one further attempt to revive the navy (maybe Manuel II?), but I honestly don't believe that Andronicus literally couldn't afford the navy. He was a weak ruler, and wanted to lower taxes to appease his people, which meant he had to cut back on his largest and most vital expence, the military. This in turn, leads to increasingly effective Turkish raids and invasions, which reduces his tax base, and he for some reason doesn't think "Hey, losing all this territory and letting my people be raped and pillaged is making me even less popular. I should do something about that."

And now here's an update!

1456

"Where there is fear there is weakness, and all weakness can be exploited"-Mehmed II, Ottoman sultan.

The year begins with all of the Balkan powers licking their wounds after the crusade, now called the Albanian Crusade as a result of Papal propaganda seeking to promote the success at Albania over the relative failure of the rest of the crusade. The notable exception is Vlad III Dracul. Having lost fewer than 1,000 men in the crusade, and inflicted heavy casualties on the Turks, Vlad is cemented in his position as Prince of Wallachia. He uses his influence to remove most of the boyars from power, while elevating officers from his army who lack noble heritage to the boyars’ former positions. Although the boyars are initially furious at this action, this rage quickly turns to fear when Vlad makes an example of 10 outspoken boyars, by executing them by impalement. Some of the less influential boyars are allowed to buy back their positions, but most flee Wallachia altogether. Those who flee south are well received by Mehmed II, who is in need of experienced soldiers to fill the holes in his ranks, and although the thousand boyars and retainers that he gains are only a fraction of the number of losses he sustained in the crusade, they are useful all the same.

Although the majority of the boyars are alienated by Vlad III’s centralizing policies, there is little they can do with Vlad commanding his 14,000 crusade veterans personally at all times. His reforms, brutal as they sometimes are (especially in his genocide of the Transylvania Saxons) still make the state wealthier and stronger on the whole. The common people fear Vlad for his cruelty, but this fear is tempered by the promotion of many of their own to create the new class of Boyars, and the fact that for the most part no non-boyars among the native ethnic Wallachians have been harmed. Still, the sense of unease does not go unnoticed, and word of the potential for insurrection against the Wallachian prince is enough to convince Mehmed II to act.

For Mehmed II, 1456 would be an especially difficult year, as he worked tirelessly to restore the moral and numbers of his troops. Although the war had ended in what could be considered a stalemate, and Mehmed still had the largest army in the Balkans, he had lost over 20,000 men, who without his Anatolian provinces were nearly irreplaceable. He had also lost his Grand Vizier, Zaganos Pasha, in the failed siege of Kruje. His replacement is none other than the Brother of Vlad III of Wallachia, Radu Bey, who becomes Grand Vizier Radu Pasha on the 8th of January. The decision is motivated by three things. Firstly, Radu and Mehmed have been friends since childhood, so that Mehmed is sure he can trust Radu. Secondly, Radu has become a leading figure in the Ottoman court at Edirne/Adrianople, and can thus help to handle the political unrest following the unfavorable peace settlement of the Albanian Crusade. The final reason, is that by promoting a royal Wallachian to a position of such high authority inside the empire, he might attract Wallachian traitors to flock to his banner, and deprive his strongest (and most personal) enemy of military support. Radu’s popularity is unmatched among the Ottoman elite and the janissaries, being that his situation is much like their own, so the transition is not problematic at all.

Grand Vizier Radu Pasha (he is made a pasha upon his ascent to the grand vizier position) is immediately sent to govern Bulgaria, and to attempt to sow discord against the Wallachians without declaring war, since a war with the Wallachians at this point is not something that can be guaranteed to end well for the Ottomans, and would leave them open to a potential attack from the Albanians, Romans, and Venetians, all of whom have scores to settle with Mehmed, and the former two have charismatic warrior lords leading them. Radu is careful not to get close enough to the Wallachian border to be attacked by a raiding party, as Vlad has sent troops to patrol the border extensively to intercept boyars flocking to the aid of the Ottomans, and Vlad’s forces have no qualms about crossing the border by a few miles to achieve their ends. Instead, Radu waits just south of the Danube, intercepting as many of the boyars as he can and rallying them to his cause. As grand vizier he has quite allot of power and money at his disposal, and is able to inspire confidence in the boyars, who see Radu as their best chance of regaining their lands and titles.

Mehmed also makes plans for Serbia. The reign of Lazar Brankovic as Despot of Serbia has gone quite poorly, as his attempt to align himself with the crusaders has backfired with their withdrawal from the field. Despite the fact that the nobility mostly supported his alliance with the crusaders, they have since changed their minds after the crusade’s outcome, and are claiming that alliance with the crusaders was a bad idea that the already unpopular Lazar had both thought up and championed. Now almost entirely deprived of support by the nobility, and facing the possibility of one of his exiled elder brothers being brought in to replace him, Lazar’s situation was dire indeed.

This of course was a golden opportunity for Mehmed, as he recognized that a healthy loyal Serbia could counter the Wallachians or Albanians in the event of war. He offers to send 3,000 men and 20 cannons, under the command of Mahmud Pasha Andelovic, the heavily Ottomanized brother of Mihailo Andelovic (1), Lazar Brankovic’s right hand man and one of his few remaining supporters. With no other options, Lazar accepts, fully knowing that he is essentially becoming an unofficial vassal of the Ottomans. The troops and the general idea of Ottoman intervention is enough to shock the nobles into submission, although they privately hate Lazar even more for bringing foreign troops into their land. Mahmud begins organizing a proper army for Serbia, which has largely lost it’s sense of unity under Lazar’s incompetent leadership. This army will be under Mahmud’s direct control. Although it is officially owned by Lazar, the reality is that he only pays for it.

Thus by spring of 1456 Mehmed has managed to secure his borders and effectively gain control of Serbia without spending significant revenue. Because of this, he is once again able to continue construction of his fleet. Progress on the fleet up to this point has been extremely slow, with poor funding on account of the wars and occasional sabotage by native Greeks being the main culprits behind the lack of productivity. By 1456 only a dozen war galleys are completed, and these have yet to be equipped with guns of any sort. Mehmed decides to personally go to Thessalonica and oversee the fleet’s construction. It is likely that he has realized that his position in Europe is weakening, and that he needs to regain control of Anatolia quickly if he wants to avoid serious territorial losses. Needless to say, under the watchful eye of the Sultan the fleet’s construction goes much quicker, and he has more than doubled his fleet’s size by June. As a cost saving measure, most of the cannons for the ships are taken from the defenses of interior cities in the southern Balkans, which are still considered to be relatively safe from attack.

In Constantinople, trade is rapidly picking up on account of the improved trade quarters, although sadly the main foreign merchants, the Venetians and Genoese, are exempt from tax for fear of angering their homelands. Still, trade brings commerce, and all other merchants are able to be taxed to the emperor’s content. The city’s population has continued to grow, reaching over 66,000 including foreigners by the summer of 1456, and effectively expanding the empire’s tax base considerably. Along with the new trader’s and populace, the city experiences considerable growth among the artisan class, in order to keep up with the needs of the traders and even on occasion sell wares to them for trade elsewhere.

Sadly, the government profited very little from this small economic boom, as every spare coin (and many that in theory should not have been spared) were paid to the Candarli estate, where they financed the stabilization of government under Candarli Halil Pasha and Orhan II. It was common talk around the city that the emperor’s famous purple boots bore holes in the soul, and he was too indebted to fix them. This poverty did not stop the emperor from trying however, and when he heard of Mehmed’s need for naval cannons, he actually secretly offered to loan Mehmed his famous gunsmith Orbon, in exchange for peace and a large sum of money. His offer was utterly rejected, and the manner of the rejection convinced Constantine that there could never be peace with Mehmed, and that the empire’s survival depended on Mehmed’s continued misfortune.

In June Constantine sent a delegation to Pope Callixtus III in Rome, requesting him to commission a new crusade, or at least stick to Nicholas V’s plan of subsidizing the empire, but Callixtus took no interest, and the delegation was turned away empty. He also sought alliances with the major power players in the Balkans and the Aegean, with mixed results. John Hunyadi and George Kastrioti Skanderbeg both agreed to mutual alliance against Mehmed, with Skanderbeg in particular emphasizing their countries’ mutual Greek heritage. In contrast the delegations to Serbia and Venice both failed miserably in their goals. In Serbia, Lazar Brankovic was too deep in Mehmed’s pocket to even consider doing anything to offend him, although notably Mihailo Andelovic and Helena Brankovic (who was actually Thomas Palaiologos’ daughter) supported the movement. Venice, meanwhile, was annoyed at the cozy relations that had been formed between the empire and the Genoese, and as a result were only willing to align themselves with the empire on the condition of Giovanni Giustiniani being removed from power, which was rejected without even being considered.

Of all those to whom envoys were sent out, the most enthusiastic response actually came from Vlad III of Wallachia. He actually endeavored to travel briefly to Constantinople to speak with Constantine personally (keeping the trip a closely guarded secret so as not to alert the Ottomans), and was greeted by the finest celebration that Constantine could scrape together, along with an honorary mass as the Hagia Sophia. While there the two not only confirmed an alliance between their two nations, but also began making plans for joint campaigns against the Ottomans, to be carried out within the next few years (although those exact plans were never put to use). The two seem to have become friends of a sort in the course of their visit, and Vlad shared many of his ideas about keeping the nobles in line with Constantine, to the latter’s interest and disgust. The alliance, along with the opportunity to host another nation’s leader, helped to heal the city’s damaged pride, and once again left moral high in the city by summer’s end.

In the Morea, Thomas had been doing some peacetime negotiations of his own with Queen Helena of Cyprus, his niece by his brother Theodore. He was hoping to marry his three year old son Andreas, who in all likeliness would succeed to the Imperial throne, to Helena’s only daughter, Charlotte, the nine year old heiress of Cyprus. Although Charlotte was already engaged, Helena hated her fiancé, who was a dispossessed infant of Portugal. Thus, she was thrilled by her uncle’s offer of a native Greek son to marry her daughter, and immediately agreed and broke off Charlotte’s previous engagement. Despite the engagement, it was agreed to keep the children in their respective homelands until they were older, and the situation in the Balkans had cooled down a bit.

In Anatolia, Orhan II had begun to become more and more difficult to handle. The young sultan, as it turned out, was little easier than his uncle to control, but Orhan was more subtle, weaving political webs with powerful families, and playing up his status as the supposed rightful heir to the throne. His one saving grace in Candarli’s mind was that he was still friendly towards the grand vizier. So long as his position was safe, Candarli was content to be considered the number two in his partnership with Orhan, and so rather than control him Candarli simply advised him. Orhan was also a seemingly capable ruler, and was careful for his part not to interfere with the Candarlis’ money, and risk alienating his strongest ally.

For the rest of the year, Europe was quiet. Troubled England experienced a tense lull in the Wars of the Roses, while France, Spain, and the Papacy continued to stagnate under the ineffective rule of Charles VII, Henry IV, and Callixtus III, respectively. The Portuguese continued to explore the Atlantic and the African coast, gaining much wealth and influence in the process, but for the most part Europe in the west was quiet, all nations just waiting for some ineffective lord to die or his son to come of age.

(1) The Andelovic brothers are descendants of the Angelos family that essentially destroyed the Byzantine Empire in the early thirteenth century.
 
Last edited:
CELTICEMPIRE, soon, but let's not be hasty, after all the POD is still less than a decade ago, and to have a state that has been in decline for 150 years and contains less than half a million people conquer territory from another much more powerful state would be very ASB without a proper internal reform, decent leadership, and an opportune situation. Money also helps:p
 
CELTICEMPIRE, soon, but let's not be hasty, after all the POD is still less than a decade ago, and to have a state that has been in decline for 150 years and contains less than half a million people conquer territory from another much more powerful state would be very ASB without a proper internal reform, decent leadership, and an opportune situation. Money also helps:p

I understand, but I was thinking that Mehmed can't continue fighting his war forever, and as as he is weakened over time, maybe the Byzantines could muster up enough troops and mercenaries to attack Ottoman lands in Bulgaria. But you probably know more than I on the subject.
 
Top