Nice update! Also, can I just say you may have one of the best named TLs on the board 
The Horde of the Lord: A History of Asiatic Judaism
- Thread starter Gosing
- Start date
The particular case mikegold was referring to was a standard case of medeival Europeans patching together a ridiculously inaccurate name for the king of a faraway land. But yeah, within a few centuries of the PoD there'll be massive linguistics-related butterflies; if I get that far, I'll either have to get a college-level linguistics textbook or enlist the help of a board linguistics expert.
The historic medieval Jewish community in China apparently went straight from Judaeo-Persian to Mandarin. So, no historic equivalent, sadly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews
Still, since everything from Yevanic (Judaeo-Greek) to Krymchak (Judaeo-Tartar) to Judaeo-Malayalam developed even IOTL, I think some sort of Judaeo-Mandarin is very likely, at least for literary and religious purposes. Unfortunately, I know Hebrew but I have zero Mandarin... wonder if any board members have that useful but unusual combination?
BTW, to what extent did the OTL Yuan Dynasty use Mongolian languages, as opposed to Mandarin, for official purposes? I know that the Qing used Manchu in foreign affairs, at least, until surprisingly late. This question may give us some clue as to the extent to which Hebrew may permeate the upper echelons of this "Jew-an" Dynasty.
FWIW, here's the short wiki page on the Judaeo-(Crimean)-Tartar language, Krymchak. This may give us a clue as to Judaeo-Mongol, if not Judaeo-Mandarin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krymchak_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krymchak_language
Although in this TL, rather than a small community of Jews who liguistically assimilated OTL, I think we are going to see a much larger Jewish presence in medieval Asia. Which is why I think there will be a viable hybrid language.
The Yuan used Mandarin and other Chinese dialects for purposes of bureaucracy---the bureaucracy was Chinese. But the leadership, Mongol, spoke Mongolian languages in large part in court. Kublai Khan never learned or tried to learn Mandarin.
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All of this sounds very interesting-it seems that you know your stuff! (Unlike me...)
I have a broad outline of the linguistics side of the TL for the foreseeable future, but not many details set in stone. If you want, I could PM you what I have so far.
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The Yuan and Qing Dynasties never led to a hybrid Sino-Mongolian or Sino-Manchu language, so why would Hebrew (or Yiddish, or any other language predominantly used by Jews) form its own language? It's not like all Mongols are going to be speaking this language either.
Let's just say that among the Diaspora, hybrid languages often developed or the Jewish community used the local language(s)-- Yiddish in the Rhineland Eastwards into Russia, Ladino in the Iberian peninsula, etc. Hebrew itself became a liturgical language well before medieval times, not the everyday tongue.
Well, I guess Hebrew could still be used as a liturgical language, but as was noted before, there was no Jewish hybrid historically in China, so why would one exist now? Sure, the Jewish community in China was small, but that's the case with many of the Jewish diaspora communities too.
Again, we are talking about (potentially, given where the TL might go) a much larger community. Instead of hundreds of Jews among hundreds of thousands we might be talking of hundreds of thousands among millions.
But who knows? Prognosticating linguistics is like doing the same for weather.
But who knows? Prognosticating linguistics is like doing the same for weather.
But who knows? Prognosticating linguistics is like doing the same for weather.
Indeed. There's no way to really know how the linguistics of this TL would pan out; I just tried to think of scenarios that were fun and plausible, and rolled with it.
I can promise, though, that there will be nothing like "and then the Mongols decided to get rid of their previous languages and start speaking a Hebrew-Yiddish hybrid." I'll try my best to maintain at least a veneer of plausiblity.
Atl asiatic jew hymn. Based loosely on Isaiah 51:11.
Wow...that fits in with my plans perfectly! Thought thief!
Update today...maybe. Maybe early tomorrow.
Atl asiatic jew hymn. Based loosely on Isaiah 51:11.
Why do I have a bizarre image of this having a Reggae rhythm?
Mek dem well bright Mongolia rise. Yeh nuh see
seh Jah Jah people a get wise.
Seriously, though, great hymn, Dathi!
Prologue Part II
The two years that Temujin spent as a slave to the Tayichiuds are perhaps the most mythologized part of one of history’s most mythologized lives. The only known sources for this period are the chronicles of Asiatic Jewish scholars, most notably the famous Works of the Conquerors. None of these record were written before a century and a half after Temujin’s death, and, even worse, most of the scribes in question cared more about providing a mythos for their religion (and justifying their rulers' positions) than recording hard historical fact. Thus, the narrative that begins in the next paragraph will be merely a paraphrased version of the tale told by those ancient manuscripts; a discussion of the story’s plausibility will follow.
As was the custom among the Tayichiuds, Temujin spent each day in the care and doing the work of a different family, most of the time in a yoke-like device called a cangue which vastly reduced his range of motion and prevented both escape and any maintenance of personal dignity. At first Temujin accepted his fate bravely, working hard while always alert to any possibility of escape; but as the months dragged on and the tribe just increased his load, he began to despair.
At last he had had enough. One day when he had returned from his duties and believed he was alone, he broke down into tears for the first time since he was an infant. Unbeknownst to him, he was observed by one person: Jochebed, a concubine of the (unnamed) high-ranking Tayichiud nobleman Temujinn was laboring for that day.
As her name suggests, Jochebed was Jewish, originally hailing from the north of China (traditionally Kaifeng, though the original texts don’t specify). The eldest daughter of a well-off family of merchants, at around age twenty-five she had been in a trade caravan that had gotten waylaid and raided; her parents were killed, and she was taken prisoner by the Tayichiuds.
As soon as she discovered the fate that was in store for her, she remembered the stories she had always been told about the cruelties of the northern barbarians; one night, when the Tayichiuds were camped by a river, she managed to slip out of sight, intending to drown herself. Just as she was readying for the jump, she heard a gentle voice say “shall the bringer of the deliverer throw away God’s gift?”
Surprised, she whirled around to find an “agent of the Lord” standing next to her on the bank of the river. He delivered a prophecy that soon she would see a mighty man weep; if she ignored him, the Covenant would be broken forever and the Chosen People would spend an eternity in chains, but if she seized the moment and converted him, the Temple would be restored within a century. Now, just a few months later, Jochebed found herself confronted with a weeping man who certainly looked mighty to her; unwilling to defy the word of the apparition, she showed herself and began to tell Temujin her story.
Up until this point, Temujin had not given much thought to religion; most peoples of the steppes followed a loose mess of superstition and shamanism that historians now refer to as Tengriism, named after Tenger, a personification of the Eternal Sky. Tengriism had virtually no dogma and no defined structure; people were free to believe what they wanted to believe.
Temujin reacted with confusion at the ideas he was being presented; though there was a sparse smattering of Abrahamic religion in Mongolia (one such group, the Keraitis, will play a large part in our tale that will begin shortly), Temujin had had next to no exposure to it. In particular, the idea of God as a being on somewhat the same scale as a man, rather than an actual part of the universe, boggled Temujin; it is likely that this conversation was the beginning of the idea of a pantheist Abrahamic God that would be codified over a century later by Shlomo Melech-Chonguo.
Though he was confused and lost at the majority of the ideas that this random concubine espoused in hushed tones while frantically looking around to see if someone was coming, Temujin understood the last thing she said quite clearly-with the aid of the Lord, he would escape from his bondage.
Jochebed (who had become a favorite of her husband’s) reported that Temujin had done an excellent job with his labors; more and more, Temujin found himself working for Jochebed’s master*. She would always find a way to speak to him alone for a short while, spending most of the time regaling him with theology and spending a brief time discussing plans for escape.
At last the Tayichiud came to the same (unnamed by the scribes) river where Jochebed had seen the agent of the Lord. As Temujin returned from a hard day’s labor, a guard came rushing up to him; identifying himself merely as a friend of Jochebed’s (traditionally held to be the father of Chilaun, one of Temujin’s future generals), he informed him that Jochebed’s husband believed that his wife and Temujin were having an affair, and that if Temujin stayed another night he would wake up without a head. The guard offered an escape plan-he would unlock Temujin’s cangue as soon as the camp went to bed, and the fugitive would hide in a nearby river crevice until the Tayichiuds gave up and moved on. When the time came and his cangue was unlocked, Temujin requested that the guard give his thanks to Jochebed; the guard replied that Jochebed had stated that “none of this was her doing…all that she has done, she has done as a vessel of the Lord.”
As Temujin was hiding deep in the crevice, a Tayichiud noticed the vague outlines of footprints in the rocks and curiously followed them down; suddenly, the river silently rose to fill the crevice and then swiftly pulled back out. The wayward Tayichiud was caught up in the current and drowned, but Temujin survived when his clothes snagged on a rock. After three days of eating the lichen on the rocks, he emerged and found the area empty. Temujin was free.
This is the traditional story. Most modern scholars believe it is actually quite plausible; by the 1170s there was a small but very well-established community of Jews in China, with Kaifeng in particular having a community of believers several centuries old. As they were a small minority, they were ignored by the Chinese government, and like many of their co-religionists they managed to prosper in wealth if not in power. And certainly if for some reason a wealthy merchant brought his caravan too far north he could expect to be raided, killed, and stripped of a daughter. Some geologists have even speculated that the episode in the crevice (slightly modified from the story) could have happened naturally.
Whether Jochebed was a real person, and if so to what degree she resembles the character of the story, is a point of great contention. It certainly seems that Temujin gained his first knowledge of the Abrahamic religions during his period of slavery, and by the time he emerged he was well on his way to conversion; that he was converted by a slave named Jochebed is unlikely, since there were no slaves named Jochebed in Mongolia at the time. All of the Chinese Jewish communities had ceased to give their children biblical names decades prior, preferring to assimilate and use common Chinese names. That Jochebed in particular is used is suspicious, as it seems to be a rather blunt way of reinforcing the story’s connection to the lifestory of Moses. But, in absence of a better theory supported by evidence, even the atheist historians have no choice but to accept that Temujin was put on the road to conversion by the Chinese Jewish concubine of a Tayichiud nobleman.
Only one thing is known for sure-by the summer of 1178, Temujin was a free man, wandering through the mountains with clothes on his back, revenge in his heart, empire on his mind, and religion in his soul.
*The reader should note that while in the original texts the nobleman is alternately referred to as "Jochebed's master" and "Jochebed's husband", Jochebed is always referred to as "The Slave", probably to further highlight the similarity to the story of Moses.
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what a wonderful conversion story
now I wonder how this is going to make things interesting
please continue posting!
now I wonder how this is going to make things interesting
please continue posting!
Why do I have a bizarre image of this having a Reggae rhythm?
Mek dem well bright Mongolia rise. Yeh nuh see
seh Jah Jah people a get wise.
Seriously, though, great hymn, Dathi!
Err... i just substituted the words ,horde, for ,redeemed, and ,victorious, for ,with singing,.. O, and i skipped a line. Oops.
The original is
Therefore the redeemed of the lord
Shall return
And come with singing
Unto Zion
And everlasting joy shall be upon there heads.
Its a very well known and widely sung praise song. I just swapped out a few words.