The Great Crusade (Reds! Part 3)

South American War 1941 Timeline
South American war 1941 Timeline



January 1st-21th: Two additional mexican divisions and a Central American one arrive in Colombia to help with the new years counter offensive, pushing the enemy advance back to Bogata and away from Medellin. American light tanks are crucial in helping to secure the advantage; having the ability to go toe to toe with the heavy Cockatrice armoured cars while light 76mm gun equipped assault guns help bring decisive firepower to the fray in “Operation Workman” while the first deployment of the Mexican first airborne division helps to push an enemy offensive at Monteria where the enemy was coming perilously close to being able to threaten Panama itself, surrounding and trapping the vanguard element of a Brazilian push to try and pincer Comintern forces.


January 4th-January 21st: In what is simply known as Operation Crush the Brazilian army pushes forward with a strike force of some three hundred thousand soldiers in a massive hammer blow meant to break apart the Chilean and Argentine armies before the American Southern Cone Expeditionary force can significantly bolster the heavily outnumbered Comintern. In a steamroller offensive the Brazilian second army group advances sixty kilometers towards Cordoba from its bases midway from Santiago del Estero. The chilean 29th division, an all mapuche fighting force is left to face the overwhelming onslaught when other formations before it withdraw, holding bridgeheads at the Primero river with grim determination despite being outnumbered by almost thirty to one. The second green guard division “titurador de osso” is finally committed to drive the Chileans from the bridge only for Argentine reinforcements and Haldeman’s expeditionary force can arrive; dragging the offensive to a halt in the indecisive battle at Cordoba.


January 22nd-February 27tth: In response to setbacks in the northern front, in a fury Salgado orders the nearby city of Sincelejo to be “laid to waste, let not even the smallest flower grow there ever again”, and the city is virtually demolished as it is looted of everything of military value; with even the structures being pulled down to utilize the building materials for military fortifications. In the meantime Bolivian forces effectively reclaim their pre-war of the pacific borders after months of heavy fighting. Even the threat of Chilean warships is not enough to prevent the Bolivian dictator from making a public spectacle of kissing the soil of the beach and proclaiming the fulfillment of Bolivia’s ambitions to once again be a maritime nation. Axis forces however, are in need of consolidation and pause offensive operations in the Andean front, with an order being given to dig in and regroup for the next set of offensives.

February 11th - March 3rd: The evacuation of Civilians and retreating troops from San Juan to Chile is harried by the Brazilian army as advanced motorized, cavalry, and air elements assault the civilian convoys for seemingly no reason beyond sheer spite as the Brazilian forces turn their efforts towards the massacre or capture of the convoy’s panicked and fleeing civilians. Aircraft of little use against military targets find that streams of civilians weighed down by their worldly possessions and exhausted Chilean-Argentine troops trying to defend them are a far easier target. In a vicious brazilian air attack against a village housing some resting elements of the Argentine army, the film maker Juan Mendoza takes a reel that captures the very nature of the war; a panicked little girl dropping her favorite doll into the rubble of her ruined home as Brazilian aircraft stitch the ground with weapons fire; an image that haunts Mendoza until his suicide after the war.

Feruary 23rd: Premier Reed announces an expansion of the Lend-Lease program to include the South American parts of the comintern drafted by himself, Franklin Delano Roosevelt of the DFLP, and others in the Central Executive Committee. The program is to provide an upswing in the allocation of war goods to the South American comintern; including modern tanks, aircraft, small arms, and food from both American and Mexican factories to make up for the devastating loss of much of the prime farmland in Colombia and Argentina to the enemy advance to keep them in the fight and avert mass famine as Salgado has the ample food production of the occupied territories; particularly in the Platine region, forwarded to his own holdings in a South American version of the hunger plan.

March 5th-24th: General Haldeman and his Argentine counterpart General Cortes make a plan known as operation “Five to one” to clear a path for critical Comintern supply convoys to reach the frontline and delay the Brazilian attempts to crush the Platine pocket and allow for a controlled withdrawal towards Patagonia rather than a mass rout. Spy efforts uncovered numerous roadblocks placed in an attempt to delay convoys put up by forward forces using faster assets to try and secure them before the heavier forces could arise; leading to the deployment of “Jeep fleets”, special forces driving American built jeeps accompanied only by the fastest of light tanks and armoured cars who would race into position to duel with these faster integralist elements and clear them from the supply lines. With the benefit of greater comintern access to radios, Haldeman and Cortes’ forces are able to lay out an ambush against the forces meant to link up with the advance elements of the integralist armies. Frustrated, Brazilian general Ordega launches a vicious counter-attack with heavier assets in the following week to try and close the supply routes; and while he makes advances, Comintern forces are able to withdraw in a fighting retreat, costing Ordega numerous tanks and armoured cars as Cortes calmly pulls his forces at the pace he sets.

March 26th: The Brazilian Navy sets sail with much of the Argentine fleet busy on other duties, including its entire battleship and heavy cruiser strength on an unknown mission. Arriving at 5 PM that day at the city of Necochea Admiral Rafael of the Brazilian fleet reveals the true nature of his orders as the Brazilian fleet turns its guns on the Argentine city and completely destroys the city in a three hour long bombardment; devastating not only the supply ports there but killing nearly seven thousand people.

March 28th: The Argentine and Chilean fleets set sail in an attempt to catch the Brazilian navy in battle to avenge the destruction dealt to Necochea

March 28th-June 16th: Renewed offensives occur across the Andean front as Bolivian and Brazilian forces have fully rested and prepared themselves for further advances. The Bolivians advance towards Santiago with the aim of capturing the city and forcing terms on the Chilean government while towards the north the Brazilian army presses hard against their outnumbered Peruvian and Ecuadorian counterparts. The fighting is some of the most miserable in the entire war, with biting cold and dangerous falls being the backdrop of many harerained offensive schemes that include the likes of rigging whole mountain tops to explode while other soldiers concentrate into bloody conflicts for controls of the valleys and plateaus they can find. Ground is given neither lightly nor cheaply and every inch that Axis forces advance is written in their own blood, and by the time that winter arrives in earnest Axis forces have been bled of some seventy thousand men to the Comintern’s fifty nine thousand for glory of advancing fifty kilometers over three months.

March 29th: The battle of the Platine River Gulf commences as Admiral Rafael engages with his Comintern counterpart; Admiral Lola; the first female admiral in chilean if not world history (with the exception of Artemisa). The engagement proves to be largely indecisive, but as the Brazilian fleet slinks away; aircraft from the American carrier Enterprise; too late to join the battle proper; deal crippling damage to the Brazilian Battleship Caxias; forcing it to spend months in repair and leading the Brazilian navy to become increasingly less active in the war.

April 1st-13th: In the “April fool’s” strike, Brazilian forces find their advance frustrated by numerous light formations of Jeeps, Armoured Cars and Light tanks racing ahead of the Comintern’s armed forces to take out numerous key bridges allowing for the crossing of many minor rivers; greatly slowing down the Brazilian advance as it tries to advance in the face of heavy artillery fire from enemy enemy forces before the advance has to come to a halt in Colombia; leaving them “stuck in their homes of mud” as one commander quipped as Brazilian tanks struggled to extricate themselves from the mud before him. The Jeep fleet tactic is perfected in these engagements, where roving fleets of Jeeps would race to engage Axis forces; either mounted or dismounted and depending on their availability; would often roll alongside Armoured Cars and Light Tanks for added firepower; and would retreat long before serious retaliation could catch them.

April 14th: Salgado organizes a secret commission to determine the costs and benefits of using chemical weapons in the war to try and speed the Axis advance and secretly orders the increase in the usage of indentured labor to man the factories, mines, and refineries of the Axis in the face of the enormous production capabilities of America which was producing an unimaginable amount of military material as it moved into a total war footing. The Green Guard, eager to engage their communist foe more often, is given permission to start taking on increasing frontline roles; with many in the Integralist government seeing the paramilitary as a means to advance their own careers by offering to supply them with all the best equipment Brazil could create.

April 15th-August 19th: Operation Smash is launched from the Axis with the aim of breaking the Comintern's will in the Southern front of the war. The westernmost formation of Axis troops pivots towards Chile with the intent of seizing as much of the country as possible and dealing a crushing defeat to the Comintern in the Andean front. Chilean forces, forewarned by message intercepts by Comintern spy rings pivot to hold against the two pronged offensive from the North and the East. In what is widely regarded as Chile's darkest hour, much of the Northern half of the country cracks under the weight of the third army group even as they take heavy losses in the face of Chile's favorable defensive terrain. However a heroic defensive effort allows for the Chilean army to withdraw to consolidate its supply lines even in the face of giving up so much land to the Axis hordes to avoid letting the majority of the country's military become encircled and the enemy is stopped at the coastal city of Chanaral under threat of fire from the guns of the Chilean navy.

April 17th-August 31st: Operation Ten to One is launched by the Integralists in the hopes of driving the Argentines to the brink of annihilation as the first troops trained in the prior year (primarily in the southern fall season before the start of hostilities) start coming into service and arrive at the front; increasing the presence of the Brazilian army in the field. The operation's name is a reference to the numerical superiority of the Brazilian army in certain sectors of the front. Three new divisions of the Green Guard also enter service at this time to join in the offensive. The ferocity of the attack sees the Brazilian army seize most of the Platine river basin and thus the vital farmland of Argentina and the penetration of Integralist forces into Patagonia as they try to outrun the move of Argentine factories southwards; an effort that ultimately fails. Some one million integralist troops take part in this massive offensive, but logistical issues and the increasingly stiff defenses of the enemy (along with some freshly arrived mexican divisions and the one token Soviet division given to Argentina as a mark of Soviet-Argentine friendship in summer of 1939-1940 which had finished its acclimation training) start to see the offensive begin to crack under its own weight.

August 5th-31st: The Battle of the Colorado river rages as Argentine forces under General Cortes; having been driven southwards by the overwhelming force of the Brazilian push against them out of the Platine entirely; make a stand at the northern borders of Patagonia after having pushed some tentative thrusts over the river back, meeting the main Integralist push in a titanic struggle; the largest of the first year of the war. Some three hundred thousand troops on the comintern side hold the line against twice their number in Integralist attackers. With their backs to the River and the fate of South America possibly on the line, the Comintern sees off waves of enemy attacks which must struggle with being at the very end of their supply lines and interservice conflicts between the Green Guard and the Military Establishment. The Comintern gradually wins air superiority over its Axis counterparts in the battle; the furious furballs of fighters engaging overhead giving the cover needed for well dug in defenders to blunt the thrust of the enemy's advance and soften them up for a counterpush once the 3rd Argentine tank division arrives at the scene and causes the over-extended Brazilians' lines to finally snap, forcing them to retreat a healthy distance from the Colorado river. With a total of two hundred and thirty thousand dead on both sides (one hundred thousand dead; sixty thousand Axis to forty thousand Comintern; thirty thousand missing; twenty thousand axis to ten thousand comintern; and another hundred thousand wounded with seventy thousand axis to thirty thousand comintern) the battle is the deadliest so far in the history of either nations and has resulted in the destruction of much of the outdated equipment in the Brazilian military; destroying nearly every pre-integralist regime military asset commited to the southern Cone; with an attempted breakout from Buenos Aires leading to the cancelation of operation Ten to One.

September 1st-December 13th: Operation Big foot begins in an attempt to drive the Axis back farther in a series of heavy hitting counter attacks on all fronts. The mexican and central American nations are at this point fully mobilized and move against their Brazilian and Venezuelan counterparts to bolster the fortunes of Colombia; working to push the enemy farther back from the Panama canal as the Enterprise's carrier group thwarts attempted air attack on the important waterway. The Argentine army makes significant headway into the platine river basin; making usage of rapid maneuver tactics to try to overwhelm the "Clumsy maneuvers of the enemy beast" while the Chilean and Peruvian armies do their best to put the squeeze on the andean front in two directions; with Ecuador's military committing increasingly to trying to push the Bolivians and Brazilians back from their points of advance. Despite the apparent exhaustion of the enemy's advance they manage to recover enough strength to not only eventually grind the Comintern advance to a halt but launch a counter-counter offensive meant to regain the ground lost over the months of Communist assault. Within a month of the recapture of Bogata, Axis forces re-recapture the city with the commitment of additional and freshly raised brazilian divisions to the front who take advantage of the overextension of a number of Central American divisions who grew overconfident in their pushes against Venezuelan forces.

December 3rd-January 4th: In a rage at the city's defiance of his forces, Salgado orders the entire city of Bogata to be completely destroyed "in a manner so that if the world is seen from the heavens they will see Bogata burning", with the Green Guard carrying out much of the acts of destruction from the generous applications of incendiaries and explosives with the famous images of flamethrower teams setting fire to the National Capitol of the Columbian government (before it was leveled with demolition charges and artillery fire) to the liquidation of people in the city who refused to come peacefully. By the end of the destruction efforts no buildings of the city are left standing and the city's population; if not killed outright; has been deported for indentured labor in Axis countries. Aerial reconnaisance of the city by Comintern forces lead to the lament that "not a single brick has been left unbroken" by the end of the orgy of destruction that is widely compared to Nanking as the Brazilian and Venezuelan armies fall upon the city's long suffering people in a horrific orgy of loot and slaughter. All items of value that do not disappear into the pockets and rucksacks of the soldiers are quickly transferred to Venezuela and Brazil, including many cultural artifacts that have yet to be returned to this day by Brazil or were taken by Americuban forces later in the war.

December 14th: The second battle of the Platine river basin takes place as the Brazilian fleet meets with its comintern counterparts that are attempting to break the blockade around the city of Buenos Aires once and for all. While the aging dreadnought Amazonia is sunk, along with a heavy cruiser; two light crusiers and three destroyers; the Argentines lose the Rivadavia, two heavy cruisers, a light cruiser, two destroyers, and two frigates; making the battle ultimately inconclusive. Many of the Sunk ships will be raised later; having been sunk in the very shallow waters of the River Basin.

December 13th-February 2nd: Little in the way of major advances are made on either side as the war settles into a months long meat grinder stage as both sides wage a brutal battle of attrition to try and advantage themselves in their planned future offensives. By now the pre-war formations have been joined by; and largely outnumbered by fresh troop formations called up since the beginning of the war and new soldiers throw themselves into the maelstrom of war. Some two and a half million casualties, two thirds of which have been civilians; have been produced in the first full year of the war and all economies are entering a total war stage as the leaders of each side recognize that this is likely to be a long and gruesome war. Drowned out in the violence taking place in China and in eastern Europe; the South American war is a war of ferocious savagery as the continent's war is as much a settling of national grievances from the prior century and prior regimes as it is a war of ideology.

December 31st: The Famous poem "río sangre" is composed by the Chilean soldier Hannah Diaz upon seeing the sight of a mountain stream stained red with the dead bodies of so many and most starkingly; the corpses of a village family just trying to get water before being gunned down by Brazilian soldiers before the battle started. This and other works inspired by the war do much to convince the world of the savagery of the Integralist army as the continent is torn apart by a war of a scale it has never seen before. Support for the integralists declines in Europe even in the face of trepidations regarding the advance of communism, and opposition figures in Britain and France such as Leon Blum, Churchill, and Attlee make statements condemning the "evil nature of the barbarian fascist regimes taking marching orders from a brutish little stick of a man who fancies himself the ruler of a continent" in the words of Churchill.
 
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Like OTL's Armata, the Champion was introduced in 2015 so very little is known about what the ECF's real intentions with it by the timeline's "end date".

Many expect that it's just a puff piece meant to scare people and the more numerous Cuirassier is to remain the MBT of the ECF.

Others think its a revival of the early cold war and war time era heavy tanks.

Some do legitimately think it's intended to be the new MBT.

The Soviet, Chinese, and American militaries of course have plans for any of the above.
I looked up the Armata, and even THAT THING weighs not even half as much as TTL's Champion.
 
I looked up the Armata, and even THAT THING weighs not even half as much as TTL's Champion.

Well,the Russians are pretty big on power-to-weight ratios.

How about the Comintern's standard tanks?I guess there would be some standardization but considering the UASR,USSR,RoC and their allies would have different priorities each.

What does the Comintern unified millitary command(if it exists)called?The InterCom?(welp)
 
The ECF has a population of about 300ish or so million assuming no divergent population growth. 120 million from the FBU metropole; 35 million from West Italy, 45 million from West Germany, roughly 40 million from Spain, 25 million from the Nordic countries, 27 million from Benelux, 5 million from Ireland, 10 million from Portugal, 10 million (very roughly) from Switzerland. Of course with likely attempts to encourage population growth in Europe that number may be closer to 350 or 400 million.

That's quite enough people for the ECF to field a substantial army on its own in Europe circa 2015.

The ECF is widely seen as basically an extension of the FBU; as either highly subordinate allies or essentially puppet states outside of the AFS. To the point that many thinkers basically label the Federation as basically a single country in terms of planning and diplomacy. The entire military structure is very tightly unified and the FBU sets most of the standards for the army and dominates its command.

Interesting. However, there's some things to remember.

Are they directed towards an assault on the Soviet Union? I mean, it's clear that the SU is the junior partner in the Comintern and the Americans are the big boss especially With the lax Soviet military size in 2015.

Western Europe invading the USSR would give them some political leverage over the rest of Europe, but they wouldn't really affect the UASR and Latin America.

WW3 OTL Europe was a major battlefield simply because of the massive Soviet presence in Eastern Europe. The deeply deflated USSR military effectively removes them as a serious threat to the FBU barring nukes. The vast Navy, Air Force, and Army of the UASR makes them quite a larger threat.

I think a more interesting conventional WW3 ITTL would be a war over resources in SouthWest Asia. I mean, if oil is still the life blood of the military, the FBU would need it pretty bad, similar to how the USSR needed it OTL. The Americans likely wouldn't need it, but the Soviets would, especially if the needed to get on a war footing. The Americans would more likely try to secure the oil for the Comintern that way the FBU would eventually implode on itself once it's military would run out of gas. As evidenced by the Gulf Wars, the geography is perfect for massive tank/infantry warfare.

As for the Comintern tanks looking like cold war Soviet Tanks, I'm not sure that's a very good idea, they were dominant for the first half of the cold war, however, once modern MBTs like the Chally and the Abrams came about, they lost any sense of superiority save numbers, which the Comintern doesn't have ITTL. Not to mention most late cold war Soviet MBTs were essentially cannon fodder for NATO tanks and they were useful for swarming enemies deep battle style, which by the time the 80s rolled around was essentially null and void due to NATO air power and Air-Land battle doctrine. Communist or not, no American commander would go for tanks like that, especially since they don't have the numerical superiority to back them up, not to mention their unwillingness to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of men to the guns of the British. They aren't a third world country guys.

It makes more sense for the American MBTs to be slightly heavier and with a more powerful gun than the ECF/FBU/AFS tanks save the Champion, since they can't realistically bring about enough forces to such a battleground to bring about an advantage in ground warfare, and the air war could go either way. They wouldn't be taking chances with having a tank on equal ground with their opponents, especially when he has a local numerical superiority.

It actually makes even more sense for the Champion to be a Nazi like overreaction to a heavier American tank with better armor and power than a Cuirassier.


I'm not trying to hijack your thread, I know my boundaries after all, but I hope you take my thoughts into consideration for future endeavors.

Also, from what I've seen, the Champion is gonna be like the Armata, a paper tiger designed to unnerve Comintern soldiers. Fuck, the damn thing will be so fucking slow the Comintern forces don't even have to fight em head to head, just clear the area and call in Arty or CAS.
 
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Interesting. However, there's some things to remember.

Are they directed towards an assault on the Soviet Union? I mean, it's clear that the SU is the junior partner in the Comintern and the Americans are the big boss especially With the lax Soviet military size in 2015.

Western Europe invading the USSR would give them some political leverage over the rest of Europe, but they wouldn't really affect the UASR and Latin America.

WW3 OTL Europe was a major battlefield simply because of the massive Soviet presence in Eastern Europe. The deeply deflated USSR military effectively removes them as a serious threat to the FBU barring nukes. The vast Navy, Air Force, and Army of the UASR makes them quite a larger threat.

I think a more interesting conventional WW3 ITTL would be a war over resources in SouthWest Asia. I mean, if oil is still the life blood of the military, the FBU would need it pretty bad, similar to how the USSR needed it OTL. The Americans likely wouldn't need it, but the Soviets would, especially if the needed to get on a war footing. The Americans would more likely try to secure the oil for the Comintern that way the FBU would eventually implode on itself once it's military would run out of gas. As evidenced by the Gulf Wars, the geography is perfect for massive tank/infantry warfare.

As for the Comintern tanks looking like cold war Soviet Tanks, I'm not sure that's a very good idea, they were dominant for the first half of the cold war, however, once modern MBTs like the Chally and the Abrams came about, they lost any sense of superiority save numbers, which the Comintern doesn't have ITTL. Not to mention most late cold war Soviet MBTs were essentially cannon fodder for NATO tanks and they were useful for swarming enemies deep battle style, which by the time the 80s rolled around was essentially null and void due to NATO air power and Air-Land battle doctrine. Communist or not, no American commander would go for tanks like that, especially since they don't have the numerical superiority to back them up, not to mention their unwillingness to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of men to the guns of the British. They aren't a third world country guys.

It makes more sense for the American MBTs to be slightly heavier and with a more powerful gun than the ECF/FBU/AFS tanks save the Champion, since they can't realistically bring about enough forces to such a battleground to bring about an advantage in ground warfare, and the air war could go either way. They wouldn't be taking chances with having a tank on equal ground with their opponents, especially when he has a local numerical superiority.

It actually makes even more sense for the Champion to be a Nazi like overreaction to a heavier American tank with better armor and power than a Cuirassier.


I'm not trying to hijack your thread, I know my boundaries after all, but I hope you take my thoughts into consideration for future endeavors.

Also, from what I've seen, the Champion is gonna be like the Armata, a paper tiger designed to unnerve Comintern soldiers. Fuck, the damn thing will be so fucking slow the Comintern forces don't even have to fight em head to head, just clear the area and call in Arty or CAS.

The Soviet military might not be the ridiculously bloated entity it became OTL (they were spending a quarter of their GDP on the military at times) but it's still quite necessarily large with worldwide commitments.

The intent of the European deployment is basically two fold. Overwhelm Comintern commitments to eastern Europe all the way up to the Soviet border and if possible force a peace treaty there; if not then go to Moscow and get the USSR to surrender and thus leave the UASR and Socialist Federation of China with no means to feasibly attack the ECF. Brazil is similarly deployed to try and quickly overwhelm the South American continent and push up to Panama and squat there (invasion fiction of course; has the cliche of Brazil, Cuba, and Belize, being a springboard to invade the UASR directly but the Empire's planners don't seriously consider that possibility), India and China will slapbox each other in the Himalayas while India makes a thrust into western Asia to try and overwhelm the Western Asian bloc while steamrolling Indochina; if necessary naval actions will be taken against the red trio (Japan, Korea, and China) with substantial amphibious assets in place to either quell attempted socialist revolution in Oceania or try to take the fight more directly to the enemy. Africa will quickly become a swirling maelstrom of chaos with the main hotspots being in the east, central africa, and southern Africa.

The intent is to leave China and America (identified as the least assailable members of the Comintern) without allies. Comintern war plans are kind of the reverse; with the intent to slow down and blunt initial offensives and then roll them back. India is generally regarded as the least attackable state; being surrounded by a ring of Capitalist nations across the Indian ocean with terrible options to attack it from any angle. So countering India would be more a holding action with feints to look like invasions are being considered when they're really not; though periphery states such as the Polynesian countries (including Indonesia and the Philippines) will of course be attacked once an advantage can be gained in the southern pacific. Brazil is to be conquered and the intent in Europe would be to try and dismantle the ECF with invading Britain being a last resort (due to the great logistical difficulties involved).

Of course this is all a lot of theorycrafting by generals and field marshals looking to have their big conventional war when in all likelihood the result would be "nukes fall, everyone dies."

The poor performance of the Iraqi Chinese and Soviet tanks was largely down to the majority of them being T-54s and Type 59s and thus hideously obsolete anyway, their modern second generation tanks being locally made knock offs, and the Iraqi military being blisteringly incompetent. It is very much the opinion of the generals who commanded operation desert storm that had they swapped equipment; the Coalition would have crushed the Iraqi military all the same because of how much of a clusterfuck the army was.

Vehicles such as the T-80u and the T-72A or B were very much capable of threatening (and in the T-80's case; outright overmatching) most anything that could be thrown at them. They're made to be compact so as to simplify logistics, but their armour is quite strong frontally (the T-80U in particular had pretty much the toughest armour around from the front) at the expense of lessening side armour relative to western MBTs. And against many western tanks; a great many of whom were still using 105mm rifled guns, the Soviet vehicles would have held the firepower advantage. Similarly, the sheer magnitude of Soviet air defenses would have made CAS a very dicey thing; NATO fully expected to lose basically its entire CAS inventory in the first few weeks of engagement to the teeth of Soviet air denial systems; and the calculus for this potential third world war is similar; both sides expect to basically lose their air cover very quickly as their air forces blast each other into mutual annihilation in the air and in the face of air defense systems; the intention is to get air superiority to use for those few weeks before attrition to modern AAA and SAM fire forces you to severely draw down operational tempo while you wait for new planes and new pilots.

The current model of the Cuirrasier is akin to planned upgrades of the Challenger II including the fitting of a 140mm smoothbore and newer armor. It's a heavy and tough beast but is outnumbered in the overall AFS army by the Indian Karna and the Brazilian Amazonia tanks (the Karna is based on OTL's Arjun while the Amazonia is very roughly similar to the modern LeClerc) which find their way into second stringer forces and in divisions that don't need the Cuirassier's 70-75 short ton mass and firepower (with a proper gas turbine engine though, the Cuirrasier is more comparable to the Abrams than the Challenger in mobility though).

I imagine the current comintern tank to use an unmanned turret and take Armata esque steps to ensure the protection and comfort of the crew (the crew basically sits in a metal cell that's easily escapable from and all crewmembers are sitting together) for both saving manpower and ensuring that crew is preserved in case of a hot war. As the UASR is; post-Canada; far away from any hot spots, its tanks also need to be easily transported in Cargo planes.

The champion has a pretty beefy engine but as it's revealed at more or less the end date of the setting you'll never get to see how it preforms outside of proving grounds, it's kind of a joke regarding the excesses of the Alliance of Free State's Military-Industrial complex's excesses to try and prove its superiority to the Comintern's very excellent and generally well managed R&D and procurement system.
 
How plans about Greece? It had the opportunity to become the "People's Republic". And I for some reason attracted to the idea of the Socialist Greece.
And yet - in the USSR still commissars?
 
So it's my birthday, and I thought I'd show you all what I made (with some help from my mom)
tumblr_ohb4oc8eNx1u2qn5jo1_1280.jpg

I cut up a red flag, a black flag, an East German flag, and an Angolan flag to make it. (and yes I know the hammer is backwards. I didn't realize that until it was already sewn)
 
The Soviet military might not be the ridiculously bloated entity it became OTL (they were spending a quarter of their GDP on the military at times) but it's still quite necessarily large with worldwide commitments.

The intent of the European deployment is basically two fold. Overwhelm Comintern commitments to eastern Europe all the way up to the Soviet border and if possible force a peace treaty there; if not then go to Moscow and get the USSR to surrender and thus leave the UASR and Socialist Federation of China with no means to feasibly attack the ECF. Brazil is similarly deployed to try and quickly overwhelm the South American continent and push up to Panama and squat there (invasion fiction of course; has the cliche of Brazil, Cuba, and Belize, being a springboard to invade the UASR directly but the Empire's planners don't seriously consider that possibility), India and China will slapbox each other in the Himalayas while India makes a thrust into western Asia to try and overwhelm the Western Asian bloc while steamrolling Indochina; if necessary naval actions will be taken against the red trio (Japan, Korea, and China) with substantial amphibious assets in place to either quell attempted socialist revolution in Oceania or try to take the fight more directly to the enemy. Africa will quickly become a swirling maelstrom of chaos with the main hotspots being in the east, central africa, and southern Africa.

The intent is to leave China and America (identified as the least assailable members of the Comintern) without allies. Comintern war plans are kind of the reverse; with the intent to slow down and blunt initial offensives and then roll them back. India is generally regarded as the least attackable state; being surrounded by a ring of Capitalist nations across the Indian ocean with terrible options to attack it from any angle. So countering India would be more a holding action with feints to look like invasions are being considered when they're really not; though periphery states such as the Polynesian countries (including Indonesia and the Philippines) will of course be attacked once an advantage can be gained in the southern pacific. Brazil is to be conquered and the intent in Europe would be to try and dismantle the ECF with invading Britain being a last resort (due to the great logistical difficulties involved).

Of course this is all a lot of theorycrafting by generals and field marshals looking to have their big conventional war when in all likelihood the result would be "nukes fall, everyone dies."

The poor performance of the Iraqi Chinese and Soviet tanks was largely down to the majority of them being T-54s and Type 59s and thus hideously obsolete anyway, their modern second generation tanks being locally made knock offs, and the Iraqi military being blisteringly incompetent. It is very much the opinion of the generals who commanded operation desert storm that had they swapped equipment; the Coalition would have crushed the Iraqi military all the same because of how much of a clusterfuck the army was.

Vehicles such as the T-80u and the T-72A or B were very much capable of threatening (and in the T-80's case; outright overmatching) most anything that could be thrown at them. They're made to be compact so as to simplify logistics, but their armour is quite strong frontally (the T-80U in particular had pretty much the toughest armour around from the front) at the expense of lessening side armour relative to western MBTs. And against many western tanks; a great many of whom were still using 105mm rifled guns, the Soviet vehicles would have held the firepower advantage. Similarly, the sheer magnitude of Soviet air defenses would have made CAS a very dicey thing; NATO fully expected to lose basically its entire CAS inventory in the first few weeks of engagement to the teeth of Soviet air denial systems; and the calculus for this potential third world war is similar; both sides expect to basically lose their air cover very quickly as their air forces blast each other into mutual annihilation in the air and in the face of air defense systems; the intention is to get air superiority to use for those few weeks before attrition to modern AAA and SAM fire forces you to severely draw down operational tempo while you wait for new planes and new pilots.

The current model of the Cuirrasier is akin to planned upgrades of the Challenger II including the fitting of a 140mm smoothbore and newer armor. It's a heavy and tough beast but is outnumbered in the overall AFS army by the Indian Karna and the Brazilian Amazonia tanks (the Karna is based on OTL's Arjun while the Amazonia is very roughly similar to the modern LeClerc) which find their way into second stringer forces and in divisions that don't need the Cuirassier's 70-75 short ton mass and firepower (with a proper gas turbine engine though, the Cuirrasier is more comparable to the Abrams than the Challenger in mobility though).

I imagine the current comintern tank to use an unmanned turret and take Armata esque steps to ensure the protection and comfort of the crew (the crew basically sits in a metal cell that's easily escapable from and all crewmembers are sitting together) for both saving manpower and ensuring that crew is preserved in case of a hot war. As the UASR is; post-Canada; far away from any hot spots, its tanks also need to be easily transported in Cargo planes.

The champion has a pretty beefy engine but as it's revealed at more or less the end date of the setting you'll never get to see how it preforms outside of proving grounds, it's kind of a joke regarding the excesses of the Alliance of Free State's Military-Industrial complex's excesses to try and prove its superiority to the Comintern's very excellent and generally well managed R&D and procurement system.



Interesting, Interesting. sounds like the Comintern has its work cut out for em. I still believe that the Middle East would get some action though because of the vast amounts of oil there.


While you are right about the Iraqi Armies tanks, it should be said that the T72s had a similar fate. I bring you to the battle of 73 easting. the Americans virtually annihilated the T72s (though none of Abrams being destroyed was likely because of the crap ammo the Iraqis had)

I'm sorry for this following rant, but the ROTC cadet in me is triggered. Your last bit about Soviet and Western tanks is totally and utterly false. It reeks so much of Soviet fanwankery it's almost borderline Leftist Wehraboo. The T80 and T72 were wholly inferior in almost every way. They had much worse armor protection (Chobham vs Soviet composite? Really?) they had gas engines which were less reliable than the Abrams and Chally, and they still had the dreaded autoloader, which made it a death trap when the protection failed as well as reducing its rate of fire to between a third and a half of it's western opponents.


What? They did not use the 105mm gun in the majority of the 80s. The Rheinmetall 120mm was used by both the M1A1 Abrams, the Challenger 1, and the Leopard 2, the main NATO tanks of the era. Said gun was superior in range, penetration, and rate of fire (thanks to the crappy Soviet autoloader which was necessary because of the undersized crew compartment of Soviet tanks) than the Soviet 2A46M 125mm gun, not to mention the ammo utilized by NATO was wholly superior as well. Combine this with the fact that you had extremely well trained Western crews against poorly trained Soviet conscript counterparts, and you get a completely inferior armored force than NATO save thier numerical superiority.

As for air support, I don't remember reading about NATO expecting that they would loose all their close air support, nor do I think they would let it happen. I mean, shit, NATO relied on air superiority, it was the only way they were gonna deny the Soviets their "Armored fist" of tanks. Shit, even tactical nukes were gonna come into play.

Now that that's out of the way, let's be friends again ;)

The AFS seems to be going for beefy tanks, but they are gonna be slow and a bitch to preserve logistically.
American tanks could be like the Armata (whose crew protection, in my opinion, is possibly the only really great thing about the new tank) but you might want to give the Comintern superior guns and ammo than the AFS, say, a 152mm rifled gun with Depleted uranium rounds, like Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFDS) so they could take on AFS tanks pretty well. Another thing you could have it do is function as a heavier self propelled artillery gun providing you gave it FRAG or the sub munitions that the MRLS uses. (Jesus, American MRLS's are gonna be OP as fuck ITTL) The Russians are actually thinking of doing this with the Armata in real life.



Armor wise, it would be best if you gave it a Chobham type reactive armor to soak up damage, though the tank would then likely be 50-52 tons. Still a lot lighter than the other tanks tough.

Now that I think of it, this American tank sounds a hell of a lot better than a heavier tank, especially for offense, as its lighter weight would allow it to be faster and exploit breakthroughs, and it's gun (providing the American MBTs have similar propellant pressure, accuracy, and penetration as OTL's Rheinmetall guns) could take out AFS tanks at great ranges as well as having the ability to act as arty support providing they are given FRAG or sub-munition rounds.
 
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Your posts are quite informative and that's a habit i picked up from facebook so yeah

Yeah, I know some military shit from my time in the Reserve Officer Training Corps. I must have been a really good cadet, because my superiors sent a letter to my local congressman saying that I should go to the Naval Academy.

Anyways, I'm glad somebody likes my posts.
 
Yeah, I know some military shit from my time in the Reserve Officer Training Corps. I must have been a really good cadet, because my superiors sent a letter to my local congressman saying that I should go to the Naval Academy.

Anyways, I'm glad somebody likes my posts.

Military AH is popular here,i think you should write your own TL someday here.

Well thanks,i guess such token appreciation have some impact personally.
 
Military AH is popular here,i think you should write your own TL someday here.

Well thanks,i guess such token appreciation have some impact personally.

I probably will, but for now, im simply enjoying this thread, and enjoying contributing to this thread. I'm also taking hospitality courses in College, so I'll contribute to any Cuisine related updates ITTL.

Make no mistake, even a simple "thank you" goes a long way. Take it from someone in the culinary industry.
 
So it's my birthday, and I thought I'd show you all what I made (with some help from my mom)
tumblr_ohb4oc8eNx1u2qn5jo1_1280.jpg

I cut up a red flag, a black flag, an East German flag, and an Angolan flag to make it. (and yes I know the hammer is backwards. I didn't realize that until it was already sewn)
Nice job. I really like it.
 
Interesting, Interesting. sounds like the Comintern has its work cut out for em. I still believe that the Middle East would get some action though because of the vast amounts of oil there.


While you are right about the Iraqi Armies tanks, it should be said that the T72s had a similar fate. I bring you to the battle of 73 easting. the Americans virtually annihilated the T72s (though none of Abrams being destroyed was likely because of the crap ammo the Iraqis had)

I'm sorry for this following rant, but the ROTC cadet in me is triggered. Your last bit about Soviet and Western tanks is totally and utterly false. It reeks so much of Soviet fanwankery it's almost borderline Leftist Wehraboo. The T80 and T72 were wholly inferior in almost every way. They had much worse armor protection (Chobham vs Soviet composite? Really?) they had gas engines which were less reliable than the Abrams and Chally, and they still had the dreaded autoloader, which made it a death trap when the protection failed as well as reducing its rate of fire to between a third and a half of it's western opponents.


What? They did not use the 105mm gun in the majority of the 80s. The Rheinmetall 120mm was used by both the M1A1 Abrams, the Challenger 1, and the Leopard 2, the main NATO tanks of the era. Said gun was superior in range, penetration, and rate of fire (thanks to the crappy Soviet autoloader which was necessary because of the undersized crew compartment of Soviet tanks) than the Soviet 2A46M 125mm gun, not to mention the ammo utilized by NATO was wholly superior as well. Combine this with the fact that you had extremely well trained Western crews against poorly trained Soviet conscript counterparts, and you get a completely inferior armored force than NATO save thier numerical superiority.

As for air support, I don't remember reading about NATO expecting that they would loose all their close air support, nor do I think they would let it happen. I mean, shit, NATO relied on air superiority, it was the only way they were gonna deny the Soviets their "Armored fist" of tanks. Shit, even tactical nukes were gonna come into play.

Now that that's out of the way, let's be friends again ;)

The AFS seems to be going for beefy tanks, but they are gonna be slow and a bitch to preserve logistically.
American tanks could be like the Armata (whose crew protection, in my opinion, is possibly the only really great thing about the new tank) but you might want to give the Comintern superior guns and ammo than the AFS, say, a 152mm rifled gun with Depleted uranium rounds, as well as Armor Piercing Fission Discarding Sabot (APFDS) so they could take on AFS tanks pretty well. Another thing you could have it do is function as a heavier self propelled artillery gun providing you gave it FRAG or the sub munitions that the MRLS uses. (Jesus, American MRLS's are gonna be OP as fuck ITTL) The Russians are actually thinking of doing this with the Armata in real life.



Armor wise, it would be best if you gave it a Chobham type reactive armor to soak up damage, though the tank would then likely be 50-52 tons. Still a lot lighter than the other tanks tough.

Now that I think of it, this American tank sounds a hell of a lot better than a heavier tank, especially for offense, as its lighter weight would allow it to be faster and exploit breakthroughs, and it's gun (providing the American MBTs have similar propellant pressure, accuracy, and penetration as OTL's Rheinmetall guns) could take out AFS tanks at great ranges as well as having the ability to act as arty support providing they are given FRAG or sub-munition rounds.

I have to admit I am rather displeased by how you seem to have ignored the update to continue this tangent but fair enough.

The T-72 used by the Iraqis was both used by incompetents and also a locally made knock off that was substantially inferior to the T-72B in use by the Soviet military at the time; made with substantially inferior quality materials (the ammunition used was very poor in particular).

The T-80B and beyond had frontal armour that was in terms of effective thickness very resilient. Its side armor was poor relative to the Leopard and M1 Abrams (the M1A1 was not introduced until 1986, by which point the chances of world war 3 were largely past due to Gorbachev's policy of detente, the 105mm equipped M1 Abrams would remain America's primary vehicle) but weight had to be saved somewhere. However the effective frontal armour thickness was upwards of 1,300 milimeters of steel; the "Soviet tanks were shitboxes" is a dumb meme that really needs to die and with ERA they could reasonably be expected to survive any frontal armour hits from any conceivable opponent. The T-72A was not expected to be able to take on dug in Leopards but Soviet vehicles were designed to win campaigns whereas NATO vehicles were (excluding the French as France was weird and always did its own thing) designed to win battles.

NATO's vehicles were made to win head to head duels while the Warsaw Pact's were made to destroy NATO's rear area infrastructure and as tank warfare is not based on honorable one on one duels, the Soviet doctrine was simply to not fight fair and maneuver around and overwhelm dug in positions with a combined arms fist of armoured vehicles and far more anti-tank missiles than the NATO vehicles would have been able to handle. (Both NATO and the Warsaw pact agreed that all NATO forces in West Germany were going to be destroyed and be destroyed very quickly, the disparity of force was simply insurmountable)

As for CAS; the entire inventory of A-10s was only expected to last three weeks before every single plane was destroyed by Anti-aircraft firepower. The Apaches were only expected to last a bit longer and a great number of the planes in airbases in Europe were expected to be neutralized by Warsaw Pact alpha strikes (you could pretty much write off every plane in West Germany as "probably not going to survive the first day). The Soviets expected that their Su-25 Frogfoots weren't going to be lasting much longer and everyone piloting them, just like the A-10s would be going in fully expecting to die. The CAS planes and their pilots were not expected to fight, they were expected to die, and with their deaths gain their side whatever advantage they could in whatever short weeks of life they had before they were inevitably slaughtered by anti-aircraft weaponry.

It's hard to emphasize the lethality of the expected third world war enough. Basically everyone in the starting armies on both sides was expected to be dead or in an infirmary by year one and it was likely that France and Germany were going to be radioactive parking lots from pissing around with tactical nuclear warheads. Of course; France was going to take things to strategic nuclear bombardment the moment the Warsaw pact crossed the Rhine and the Soviets would respond in kind; ergo meaning that world war three would probably end in about a week or two as the French army spots the first vehicle crossing the Rhine and then blows eastern Europe to Kingdom Come; and then promptly gets blasted into smithereens by the retaliation strike that annihilates western Europe, North America, and most of the rest of the world in the general nuclear exchange. As both sides were ultimately rational actors, they wisely decided to sit around and do nothing.

The calculus in the third world war in Reds is ultimately a matter of who makes the attack first; though in a long drawn out war the Comintern has the upper hand in terms of GDP and military production. The Soviets in all likelihood would go nuclear if Poland falls rather than ever relive the horror of the Axis invasion, and the FBU would similarly go nuclear if the counter-attack pushes past the Rhine and threatens France itself. Iran is also likely to go nuclear if the Indian tide proves to be insurmountable and the Iranian Red Army of course; fully expects that it cannot win in an all out engagement with the Indian army; just buy time for the USSR, Turkey, and China to defend central Asia. Palestine and Indochina; both lacking in Strategic depth are also likely to go nuclear. Brazil and Argentina are both likely to go nuclear if it seems that their falls are inevitable, India's liable to push the big red doom button if one of their flanks collapses to a Comintern offensive, and China would likely start to nuke attempted invasion through Southeast Asia rather than relive the Japanese invasion. The UASR would probably join in rather than start any general nuclear exchange but overall outside of the people who want to believe that they can have a winnable conventional third world war; the belief is that it would end in the destruction of human civilization very quickly.

It's rather unlikely that the T-14 is a bad vehicle, the Bundeswehr has regarded it as enough of a threat to give the go ahead to improve the Leopard II with a new 130mm gun with substantially superior penetration capability and work with France to come up with and produce a new weapons system; feeling that the T-14 has rendered their current stock of armoured vehicles obsolete without new improvements. Germany is frugal enough on their military spending (given that we don't really like the military) that they wouldn't go about engaging in an expensive series of upgrades for their own motor pool if they didn't feel the danger was real. NATO regards the vehicle as threatening, but the main question is whether Russia with its Italy sized economy can afford to replace the T-90 with it as their main battle tank. It's not really a question of if the T-14 is a new and dangerous vehicle, it's more a question if Russia has the money and the will to mass it.

In any case I'd like to stop on this cold war tangent and drag things back to the South American war which I plan to make another update for quite soon.
 
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I have to admit I am rather displeased by how you seem to have ignored the update to continue this tangent but fair enough.

The T-72 used by the Iraqis was both used by incompetents and also a locally made knock off that was substantially inferior to the T-72B in use by the Soviet military at the time; made with substantially inferior quality materials (the ammunition used was very poor in particular).

The T-80B and beyond had frontal armour that was in terms of effective thickness very resilient. Its side armor was poor relative to the Leopard and M1 Abrams (the M1A1 was not introduced until 1986, by which point the chances of world war 3 were largely past due to Gorbachev's policy of detente, the 105mm equipped M1 Abrams would remain America's primary vehicle) but weight had to be saved somewhere. However the effective frontal armour thickness was upwards of 1,300 milimeters of steel; the "Soviet tanks were shitboxes" is a dumb meme that really needs to die and with ERA they could reasonably be expected to survive any frontal armour hits from any conceivable opponent. The T-72A was not expected to be able to take on dug in Leopards but Soviet vehicles were designed to win campaigns whereas NATO vehicles were (excluding the French as France was weird and always did its own thing) designed to win battles.

NATO's vehicles were made to win head to head duels while the Warsaw Pact's were made to destroy NATO's rear area infrastructure and as tank warfare is not based on honorable one on one duels, the Soviet doctrine was simply to not fight fair and maneuver around and overwhelm dug in positions with a combined arms fist of armoured vehicles and far more anti-tank missiles than the NATO vehicles would have been able to handle. (Both NATO and the Warsaw pact agreed that all NATO forces in West Germany were going to be destroyed and be destroyed very quickly, the disparity of force was simply insurmountable)

As for CAS; the entire inventory of A-10s was only expected to last three weeks before every single plane was destroyed by Anti-aircraft firepower. The Apaches were only expected to last a bit longer and a great number of the planes in airbases in Europe were expected to be neutralized by Warsaw Pact alpha strikes (you could pretty much write off every plane in West Germany as "probably not going to survive the first day). The Soviets expected that their Su-25 Frogfoots weren't going to be lasting much longer and everyone piloting them, just like the A-10s would be going in fully expecting to die. The CAS planes and their pilots were not expected to fight, they were expected to die, and with their deaths gain their side whatever advantage they could in whatever short weeks of life they had before they were inevitably slaughtered by anti-aircraft weaponry.

It's hard to emphasize the lethality of the expected third world war enough. Basically everyone in the starting armies on both sides was expected to be dead or in an infirmary by year one and it was likely that France and Germany were going to be radioactive parking lots from pissing around with tactical nuclear warheads. Of course; France was going to take things to strategic nuclear bombardment the moment the Warsaw pact crossed the Rhine and the Soviets would respond in kind; ergo meaning that world war three would probably end in about a week or two as the French army spots the first vehicle crossing the Rhine and then blows eastern Europe to Kingdom Come; and then promptly gets blasted into smithereens by the retaliation strike that annihilates western Europe, North America, and most of the rest of the world in the general nuclear exchange. As both sides were ultimately rational actors, they wisely decided to sit around and do nothing.

The calculus in the third world war in Reds is ultimately a matter of who makes the attack first; though in a long drawn out war the Comintern has the advantage in GDP and military production capability to the Alliance's moderate advantages in total manpower (though much of the manpower could be considered unreliable in the face of attempted leftist revolution or sabotage). The Soviets in all likelihood would go nuclear if Poland falls rather than ever relive the horror of the Axis invasion, and the FBU would similarly go nuclear if the counter-attack pushes past the Rhine and threatens France itself. Iran is also likely to go nuclear if the Indian tide proves to be insurmountable and the Iranian Red Army of course; fully expects that it cannot win in an all out engagement with the Indian army; just buy time for the USSR, Turkey, and China to defend central Asia. Palestine and Indochina; both lacking in Strategic depth are also likely to go nuclear. Brazil and Argentina are both likely to go nuclear if it seems that their falls are inevitable, India's liable to push the big red doom button if one of their flanks collapses to a Comintern offensive, and China would likely start to nuke attempted invasion through Southeast Asia rather than relive the Japanese invasion. The UASR would probably join in rather than start any general nuclear exchange but overall outside of the people who want to believe that they can have a winnable conventional third world war; the belief is that it would end in the destruction of human civilization very quickly.

It's rather unlikely that the T-14 is a bad vehicle, the Bundeswehr has regarded it as enough of a threat to give the go ahead to improve the Leopard II with a new 130mm gun with substantially superior penetration capability and work with France to come up with and produce a new weapons system; feeling that the T-14 has rendered their current stock of armoured vehicles obsolete without new improvements. Germany is frugal enough on their military spending (given that we don't really like the military) that they wouldn't go about engaging in an expensive series of upgrades for their own motor pool if they didn't feel the danger was real. NATO regards the vehicle as threatening, but the main question is whether Russia with its Italy sized economy can afford to replace the T-90 with it as their main battle tank. It's not really a question of if the T-14 is a new and dangerous vehicle, it's more a question if Russia has the money and the will to mass it.

In any case I'd like to stop on this cold war tangent and drag things back to the South American war which I plan to make another update for quite soon.

"I'll admit I'm rather displeased about how you seemingly ignored the update in order to continue this tangent but fair enough"

Holy shit there was an update? How the fuck did I miss that? Shit, I must have forgotten all about it, cause I liked the post the update was in......


The T72 knockoff largely had the same armor as the regular T-72 IIRC, but lacked the targeting systems that made the Soviet tank effective, in any case KE penetration protection wasn't really existent on USSR tanks. I mentioned the poor quality of the ammo as well.

Actually, there was quite a bit of M1A1's shipped to Europe. Also, you don't seem to understand that it's not the size of the gun that counts, it's the ammo and the crew using it, which NATO was much better at than their Soviet counterparts. One of the biggest things to remember OTL is that the Soviets had "A" class divisions, "B" class divisions, and "C" class divisions, based on the training and equipment of each. The Soviet "A" divisions, whose crews were already inferior and had poorer morale than western ones, would have been chewed up pretty fast, and thier less than stellar reserve divisions would have been even worse. Another thing to mention is that most Conventional WW3 scenarios were meant to take place in the late 80's with extensive military buildups involved, so there would be massive NATO buildups in the area as well as a phasing out of M60A3 tanks to rearguard roles. Like ITTL, the notion of a conventional WW3 taking place is unrealistic, where it would likely involve a full blown nuclear exchange.

It's not a "dumb meme" per say and I don't know where you got the idea that anyone said Soviet tanks were bad outside Wehraboos. It's a pretty well known fact amongst military historians that Soviet tanks in the 1980's were inferior design wise (not tactics wise) to NATO counterparts. They were not designed with crew survivability or firepower advantage in mind. The Soviet's armor protection (ERA Kontakt-5) was really only effective against HEAT rounds, and completely ineffective against APFDS rounds that NATO employed, which overpenetrate like the wrath of the almighty working class itself. There's also the inferior reliability of said tanks, the inferior gun, and the autoloader, which is still a piss poor concept that hasn't been perfected yet. I'm not sure if the Armata has perfected this yet, but we will know soon enough.

As for tactics, yes I agree, the 1980's T-series is great for what it is intended to do. And as for CAS, I was unaware that that was the case. My question is, in a conventional WW3 with military buildups, how would it have gone? I think it would have been a stalemate.

As for the Armata, I don't think it's a bad tank. I think I meant "revolutionary" instead of "good" honestly.


In any case I'd also prefer to stop this Cold War turned hot tangent and continue my WFRMC revisions, though I might write a conventional WW3 scenario in the fanfic thread.
 
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