The Eurofighter Typhoon is still born?

Giant Man Eating Rabbits

Giant Man Eating Rabbits

Banned
A spin off from my previous "What is PANAVIA Tornado is still born?"

What if for some reason the Eurofighter Tornado isn't developed and as such is a still born project?

What are the sanity options for the OTL partners?
What would the UK do as they still need a fighter long range interceptor?
Would the UK license build another model straight off the shelf?, would the £££'s saved from not starting the project allow a more expensive aircraft to be built/purchased?
What would both Germany & Italy do?, would they both purchase either the F-16/F-18 or even the Mirage 2000?
Would a knock on effect allow Germany & Italy to join the French Rafale program?
 

CV12Hornet

The Rafale is the big winner. The Germans were very keen early on in the Eurofighter program on working with the French; no Eurofighter means the Germans would become a major subcontractor in the Rafale program. Conversely, the Brits were bound and determined not work with the French. They’ll try to go it alone with EAP; I suspect the Peace Dividend would force them to buy American.

Spain and Italy can either join the Rafale program or buy American, too.

Edit: Spain would be in the Rafale camp. Not sure about Italy.
 
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I lurk therefore I am

The final shape of the Typhoon was based on the Experimental Aircraft Prototype (EAP), which was privately funded by the UK. If the UK goes it alone, I suspect the Typhoon will a refined version of the EAP, so close to OTL.
 

michael1

Depends what you mean by still born. The British, French and Germans all had similar requirements, so if the British drop out the Germans join the Rafale project (they probably can't go alone) while the British either join the Rafale or go alone with something very like the typhoon, most likely the latter. Given the timelines involved in developing both of these planes, the obvious requirement and the desire to sustain the domestic defence industry it's going to take a set of butterflies spanning several governments not to have something developed in Europe rather than bought off the shelf or from outside Europe, and something even more dramatic to have nothing acquired.
 

flasheart

If the Eurofighter is stillborn then depending on how early in its development it is when this happens that might kill off the Rafale as we know it. The visible similarities between the Typhoon and Rafale are a result of the French dropping out of the Typhoon project and taking what had already been designed and going their own way with it as opposed to starting from scratch.
 

michael1

Giant Man Eating Rabbits said:
I was thinking that the UK gov't said no to funding it so it forces Germany, Italy and the RAF to look to other options.
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If the UK doesn't join the development team (or fund its own equivalent) the others stick with the French and produce something like the Rafale while a subsequent UK government buys something off the shelf. When the purchase is made depends on the UK political timeline (unless you want to abolish the RAF) and which plane is purchased depends on UK politics at the time. The UK aviation industry becomes a subcontractor.
 

aaronupright

The EF2000 can only feasibly be cancelled around the end of the Cold War .
Maybe if Labour wins in 1992, they cancel it.
All the countries go for JSF, or at least much more than they did OTL.
 
Lascaris

Lascaris

flasheart said:
If the Eurofighter is stillborn then depending on how early in its development it is when this happens that might kill off the Rafale as we know it. The visible similarities between the Typhoon and Rafale are a result of the French dropping out of the Typhoon project and taking what had already been designed and going their own way with it as opposed to starting from scratch.
Click to expand...
Rafale had start life as Dassault ACT... which no was not a knock off of EAP as can be seen in the images below from around 1980. Images courtesy here. So in the not entirely unlikely case the Germans manage to break up with Britain Rafale is not affected. Now what actually happens is an interesting question and does depend on the time of cancellation. The French and British likely go their own ways, the Spanish go for Rafale and the Italians for Typhoon probably (unless we talk about a post 1986 breakup which amounts to the Germans leaving)

The big question IMO are the Germans. For which depending on timing any of the options below could happen:

1. Rafale A (the plan was to have Rafale with F404 and German electronics for the Luftwaffe and with M88 and French electronics for AdA)
2. Some F-18 derivative like Northrop-Dornier ND-102
3. License building F/A-18 or F/A-18E... so called Hornet 2000 was being proposed as an alternative to the Eurocanards
4... Nothing. Have the Germans jump out late and I could very much see it continuing to use inherited MiG-29s and F-4F with no replacement. After all wars are not happening in Europe any more why should we bother with a new machine?


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Derek Pullem

Derek Pullem

Donor
The Wooksta! said:
Likelihood is UK goes with Grippen in the short term as BAe had a major stake in it.
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Cannot see that at all - surely F-18 is a more likely option until F-35 is available. Especially if the British kill it.

Even though BAe had an interest in Saab the delays in bringing it to market would have killed it as an option without a stop gap and by the time the problems are solved F-35 is on the testing runway.
 

Peg Leg Pom

There was a possible British alternative to what became the Typhoon. The Bae P.1216 ASTOVL aircraft, but that is likely to need US participation.
 

tomo pauk

Giant Man Eating Rabbits said:
A spin off from my previous "What is PANAVIA Tornado is still born?"

What if for some reason the Eurofighter Tornado isn't developed and as such is a still born project?

What are the sanity options for the OTL partners?
What would the UK do as they still need a fighter long range interceptor?
Would the UK license build another model straight off the shelf?, would the £££'s saved from not starting the project allow a more expensive aircraft to be built/purchased?
What would both Germany & Italy do?, would they both purchase either the F-16/F-18 or even the Mirage 2000?
Would a knock on effect allow Germany & Italy to join the French Rafale program?
Click to expand...

For an alt-history scenario, this lacks one important detail (same as the Tornado scenario):
- when it is stillborn?
 

tomo pauk

Giant Man Eating Rabbits said:
I'm thinking late 70's TP. The Gov't says "No money in the till!"
Click to expand...
Okay.
Delta wing + canards on Tornado, fly-by-wire, install EJ200 when available, ditto for more modern electronics. This way we also beat the French (Dassault with Rafale) to the punch, as well as the F-18E, also avoids the Peace Dividends past 1991 by the virtue of being earlier.
More LE features from 1990s, like improved intakes, anti-reflection coating, perhaps twin tail etc. Introduce parts of airframe made from composite materials as these mature.
 

CV12Hornet

tomo pauk said:
Okay.
Delta wing + canards on Tornado, fly-by-wire, install EJ200 when available, ditto for more modern electronics. This way we also beat the French (Dassault with Rafale) to the punch, as well as the F-18E, also avoids the Peace Dividends past 1991 by the virtue of being earlier.
More LE features from 1990s, like improved intakes, anti-reflection coating, perhaps twin tail etc. Introduce parts of airframe made from composite materials as these mature.
Click to expand...
How are they funding all this when there’s no money in the till. You’re basically trying to Super Hornet the Tornado and if there’s no money for the Typhoon there’s no money for something this extensive.

Okay, a late 70s death means a lot rests on when development money is made available again. Is this in the 1980s when most of the Eurofighter decision points were made? Or even later?
 
Electric Monk

Electric Monk

This is terrible for the JSF, I suspect.

If the Spanish and Italians are on board the Rafale M should (/will way faster than OTL) come with ski-jump capability to support their carriers (plus sales to India) and make for a bigger/cheaper buy for all parties. Heck the British might wind up buying Rafale eventually for their carriers.
 
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