Honestly I would prefer to see the Syracusan Empire limited to Greek-speaking Southern Italy ( territory that they already hold the majority ) and then to the Balkans, therefore with the rest of the former Angevin dominions which were independent Catholic states ( in Campania, Spoleto and Abruzzo ) but vassals of the Basileus, which act as practical buffer with the Latin world ( and the Papacy first and foremost ) this certainly does not prohibit occasional military campaigns against Rome or hostile neighbors, but only as a punitive action, certainly not long-term occupation or even definitive annexation ( which would be political suicide for the Lascaris, given that as I have already said several times, they do not have any population friendly to them in those regions that they can exploit to facilitate their government, indeed they would be extremely hostile to the Sicilian - Hellenic heretics, finally Syracuse would not even have the numbers to attempt a assimilationist policy if they tried to conquer further north than Salerno, then it would be much better to leave things as they are ( playing divide and conquer, the Latins among themselves, so that they cannot gang up against Syracuse ) eventually they can always decide to allocate a Naples rump ( aka the only Campania ) to one of their cadets who for the occasion is converted to the Catholic " heresy " , to avoid unnecessary problems
The eagle's left head
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Honestly I would prefer to see the Syracusan Empire limited to Greek-speaking Southern Italy ( territory that they already hold the majority ) and then to the Balkans, therefore with the rest of the former Angevin dominions which were independent Catholic states ( in Campania, Spoleto and Abruzzo ) but vassals of the Basileus, which act as practical buffer with the Latin world ( and the Papacy first and foremost ) this certainly does not prohibit occasional military campaigns against Rome or hostile neighbors, but only as a punitive action, certainly not long-term occupation or even definitive annexation ( which would be political suicide for the Lascaris, given that as I have already said several times, they do not have any population friendly to them in those regions that they can exploit to facilitate their government, indeed they would be extremely hostile to the Sicilian - Hellenic heretics, finally Syracuse would not even have the numbers to attempt a assimilationist policy if they tried to conquer further north than Salerno, then it would be much better to leave things as they are ( playing divide and conquer, the Latins among themselves, so that they cannot gang up against Syracuse ) eventually they can always decide to allocate a Naples rump ( aka the only Campania ) to one of their cadets who for the occasion is converted to the Catholic " heresy " , to avoid unnecessary problems
To be fair, late Pope excommunications, notwithstanding, the Sicilian Basileus and at least his Italian and Sicilian subjects, are the Mediaeval version of the 'Uniates', so technically, if lifted the excommunication/'reconciled', they still, would be in 'communion' with the Roman Catholic Church...
Ofc, that if the Vatastez, if the chance to do so, would happen in the future, if they still will be interested, it would be an entirely different matter...
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in fact this is the crux of the matter, it all depends on what they want to do in Syracuse, if they want to conquer the rest of the South and perhaps even beyond ( then conversion would be necessary, given that they would find themselves with millions more Latin Catholics to govern, without forgetting the possibility of playing creator of Popes ( 1 ), which in OTL was tempting many in Europe ( even after the spread of the Reformation, is that it was one of the reasons why the French monarchs and the Habsburgs were not really interested in Protestant ideas, except to use them as an excuse to scare Rome and gain even more control in the curia, given that between choosing to have your own small confession or the possibility of indirectly governing the entire Catholic hierarchy of Europe, it is easy to understand which of the two options was the tastier one ... ) otherwise, i.e. in the scenario in which they are satisfied with a secure border ( using the remains of the Angevin kingdom, as a practical buffer ) then all this is not relevant
1 ) this in particular is one of the three most important errors that I believe Federico II committed in Otl, when he could exploit the death of Gregory IX in 1241, to force the conclave to elect a Pope more friendly towards him ( perhaps by presenting himself with the army outside the Leonine walls or by entering the city alone by leveraging the strong Roman Ghibelline faction ) together with not besieging Milan in 1237 ( given that the city was defenseless, therefore more than willing to negotiate with the Stupor Mundi, even at the cost of suffering a draconian peace, a fact that would have guaranteed him a period of respite from the clashes against the Lombard league, which had its main leadership in Milan, so as to free him for other projects ) and not making another trip to Germany in the years between 1235 and his death in Otl ( thus favoring the strengthening of the Guelph faction among the princes to the detriment of the government of his son Conrad IV )
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This all also depends on whether or not Lascarid Sicily remains a distinctly Greek, Eastern Orthodox state. Syracuse seems to occupy a position in between the worlds of East and West (Europe), and I could very well see it becoming something of a bridge between the two, if the author wants to take it in that direction. Southern Italians may not be quite so opposed to Italo-Greek rule proclaiming a doctrine of a Union of Churches.
If the Lascarids are a threat to Rome, I doubt the papacy would definitely move back from Avignon. If they become one in the future, chances are that the Pope will simply move back to Avignon.
What's interesting is how this is going to impact the western schism.
What's interesting is how this is going to impact the western schism.
A Europe where Italy is part of the protestant-catholic schism with the orthodox church being a relatively autocephalous church would form an important part of protestant thought: Barlaam and the orthodoxy should be something that would be remembered by the orthodox churches in Italy and their knowledge flowing into Europe from Sicily.
Sctually you are right, in the event of a Lascaride threat towards Rome it is very probable that the papal court will move back to Avignon until the waters calm down, but we must consider that the objective of the French pontiffs, even in Otl, was to immediately regain the full control of the papal state and in particular of Rome, which was becoming the nerve center of the Ghibelline movement ( along with Milan and Verona ) therefore the return to the City will always be a priority for a pontiff, even if I can imagine that the reforming faction of the curia , can be strengthened by this situation, making the internal power struggle between the cardinals and the Pope last, which in OTL was expressed with the conciliar movement ( with perhaps an anticipated expansion of the presence of non-Italian cardinals within the curia, so as to strengthen the possibility of European monarchs to influence papal policy internally ) even if I don't see any of the great Latin powers ( mainly France and HRE Emperor, with England, Hungary and Castile following ) or the Italian actors themselves turning to an ATL version of Protestantism, after all in OTL and even in this scenario, they would have more to lose than to gain, by breaking with Rome, given that with an even weaker Papacy than Otl, it literally means that he will be forced to ask for the help of said powers for his purposes, having to make huge concessions to convince them, in practice it is almost as if each of them could actually try to put his Pope in Rome without him subsequently trying to oppose since he would be too weak to try, in short, a situation very similar to the Papacy post-Protestant Reformation, which was almost a toy of France and Habsburg
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Part 72
Buda, April 1368
The first meeting between Ioannis V and Louis I of Hungary had not gone well. Louis had not taken well to the emperor refusing to dismount first from his horse when they had met, and Ioannis had been faced with the demands by Louis for the unconditional surrender of the Greek church to the pope. Ioannis V would continue his journey to Europe empty handed.
Chalkis, July 1368
Vettor Pisani signaled to his ships to retreat. His fleet had pressed on trying to reach Chalkis and failed. Philanthropenos taking advantage of the proximity of the coast had loaded over a thousand additional infantrymen on his galleys. Between his fleet and catapults, archers and crossbowmen emplaced in field fortifications along both coasts the Venetians and their allies had been forced to turn back. Meanwhile, while Chalkis still held on, Philanthropenos troops were ranging all over the rest of the island carrying everything before them.
Crete, September 1368
Kallergis men were forced into one more retreat, Cypriot and Venetian troops had doubled the territory under their control since the start of the year with over a quarter of the island under their control by now. Were it not for Sicilian supplies and men things would had been far worse for the Cretans. As it were they held most of the island. On the Cypriot and Venetian side Peter had to deal with increasing discontent among his own men and wasn't all too happy with the progress of the war himself. But he was committed to the war and understood that to win it he had to stick to a common strategy with Venice. Which meant first crushing the Cretan revolt...
Chalkis, October 29th, 1368
The town was forced to surrender to Philanthropenos forces. For the first time since 1304 the entirety of Euboea was back in Greek hands. But further to the south the Venetians were still holding fast in Methone and Korone.
Adrianople, November 1368
Sultan Murad was back to his capital. His armies had seized Sozopolis in the Black sea coast and North Thracian plain up to it with neither the Bulgarians not the Byzantines being able to offer effective resistance. Meanwhile Ioannis V was still away in Western Europe begging for help from anyone willing to hear him.
Methone, February 1369
Alexandros Philanthropenos moved against Methone and Korone at the head of nearly 14,000 men and 38 Greek and Genoese galleys. The garrisons under Carlo Zeno were too weak at the moment to hold out for long if not reinforced.
Candia, March 1369
Vettor Pisani received the few news managing to slip out of the Venetian castles in the Morea with increasing concern. His fleet of 25 galleys was too weak to be able to directly challenge Philanthropenos, not without reinforcements and this were unlikely to come from Venice. Young Maniakes, was so far proving much more of a nuisance than his father had been over the years with his squadron operating variously out of Corfu, Bari and Otranto keeping the hands of the Venetian Adriatic squadron full. Peter had agreed with him for the need for the Cypriots to arm as many ships as they could but this was coming at a cost with Peter having to release part of his army.
Methone and Korone, May 1369
Forty-one Venetian, Cypriot and Hospitaller galleys helped by favorable winds entered the ports bringing over a thousand Turkish mercenaries along with supplies. The Sicilian sieges of the two Venetian fortresses would continue but the going would become much tougher.
Thrace, June 1369
The Ottomans had turned their attentions to the remaining Byzantine holdings in Thrace taking Saranta Ekklisies and Vizye. At the same time the campaign against the Bulgarians continued with several fortresses falling to the Ottomans.
Crete, September 1369
The campaign was proving too frustrating for king Peter's tastes. His joint army was only slightly numerically superior to Kallergis who had kept his advances checked. With increasingly bad news from Cyprus where the Turks had pushed the Cypriots out of their holdings in the Anatolian coast, renewed plague had hit the island and there was growing unrest against the absent king and the regency of his brother John, the king would decide to return to Nicosia to set things in order during the winter before he could return to pursue the war.
Rome, October 1369
Ioannis V kissed three times the feet of pope Urban V and proclaimed acceptance of the union of the churches or rather subordination of the Greek Church to the pope. It was humiliating but it was not as if the basileus could do much given the tragic situation of the empire.
Palermo, December 1369
It had taken some work to arrange the meeting, the empire might had dropped out of the war with Sicily but no formal peace had been arranged yet. Ioannis V would had been normally loath to come begging hat in hand the Sicilians. But it was not as if he had much option with the Turks running amok in Thrace conquering everything in sight. The regent who had come all the way from Syracuse looked at him coldly.
"So you are coming here, to seek help?
"It is needed. The Turks, have conquered most of Thrace, invaded Bulgaria, attack the Serbs, they are a danger for all of us. Including you"
"And what are we to do, stop the war with Venice, throw the Cretans to the wolves and instead come marching to Constantinople's aid?"
"Venice holds Crete for the last 160 years. Do a bunch of unruly peasants matter to you more than the Turks threatening Constantinople and all of us?"
"Actually they do, my late father in in law was very careful to teach me how much this poor peasants matter. He had been taught that from his own father. This is why this realm has kept prospering while the lands your great-grandfather had taken from Theodore's cousin had not. But is doesn't matter. The truth is I don't give a shit about your current predicament?"
"What?" that Ioannis V had been taken aback by the language was an understatement.
"You helped kill my husband, after attacking his envoys and now you expect me to come to your aid? That is NEVER going to happen. Now please do all of us a favor and leave."
The audience was over.
Nicosia, January 1370
The three knights barged into the kings bedroom killing Peter I in front of his mistress. The unpopular plans of the late king for one more campaign in the west, coupled with the multitude of adulteries with nobles wives and daughters had proven a lethal combination.
Otranto straits, March 1370
The Venetian Adriatic squadron slipped south past Sicilian patrols to link up with that of VettorPisani. The Council of Ten had taken seriously the letters of Pisani that with the Cypriots out of the war his fleet was now severely outnumbered. But the Venetians would be sighted further south and the Sicilian fleet in Greek waters would be ordered by Philanthropenos away before it could be trapped between the two enemy fleets and hole up in Piraeus to wait for their Sicilian brethren to come to their aid.
Sapienza, July 1370
The two fleets were about evenly matched in numbers. Philanthropenos and Ioannis Maniakes, the younger man tended to use the second surname, reminding his illustrious ancestor, had 56 galleys, the Genoese had refused to renew their contract. The Venetians had 49 with 6 more provided by the Hospitallers. But the Sicilians could draw on more marines thanks to the proximity of their army and Pisani was well aware that the Venetian manpower reserves were nearly exhausted. With casualties nearing 3,000 on each side and the Sicilians showing no signs of retreating, the Venetian fleet would disengage first. But eith Venice potentially exposed Pisani would take his fleet back north...
Methone, August 28th, 1370
The fortress surrendered under terms to Alexandros Philanthropenos, the Venetian garrison would be allowed to leave for Crete. Korone would follow two weeks later. And with the Venetian fleet now away the Sicilians could attack the minnor Aegean islands with relative impunity. By the end of the year Samos, Ikaria and Kos had been recovered, annd Kythera and Karpathos, held by Venetian feudatories since the 4th crusade would fall to the Greeks.
Crete, November 1370
With the Cypriot army gone after the death of Peter I, the Venetian army in the island had found itself on the defensive. Kallergis troops had puhed the Venetians out of most of their gains in the past two years.
Avignon, December 1370
Pierre Roger de Beaufort became pope Gregory XI following the death of Urban V. When the news of the election of yet another French pope would reach Italy they would not be received.
The first meeting between Ioannis V and Louis I of Hungary had not gone well. Louis had not taken well to the emperor refusing to dismount first from his horse when they had met, and Ioannis had been faced with the demands by Louis for the unconditional surrender of the Greek church to the pope. Ioannis V would continue his journey to Europe empty handed.
Chalkis, July 1368
Vettor Pisani signaled to his ships to retreat. His fleet had pressed on trying to reach Chalkis and failed. Philanthropenos taking advantage of the proximity of the coast had loaded over a thousand additional infantrymen on his galleys. Between his fleet and catapults, archers and crossbowmen emplaced in field fortifications along both coasts the Venetians and their allies had been forced to turn back. Meanwhile, while Chalkis still held on, Philanthropenos troops were ranging all over the rest of the island carrying everything before them.
Crete, September 1368
Kallergis men were forced into one more retreat, Cypriot and Venetian troops had doubled the territory under their control since the start of the year with over a quarter of the island under their control by now. Were it not for Sicilian supplies and men things would had been far worse for the Cretans. As it were they held most of the island. On the Cypriot and Venetian side Peter had to deal with increasing discontent among his own men and wasn't all too happy with the progress of the war himself. But he was committed to the war and understood that to win it he had to stick to a common strategy with Venice. Which meant first crushing the Cretan revolt...
Chalkis, October 29th, 1368
The town was forced to surrender to Philanthropenos forces. For the first time since 1304 the entirety of Euboea was back in Greek hands. But further to the south the Venetians were still holding fast in Methone and Korone.
Adrianople, November 1368
Sultan Murad was back to his capital. His armies had seized Sozopolis in the Black sea coast and North Thracian plain up to it with neither the Bulgarians not the Byzantines being able to offer effective resistance. Meanwhile Ioannis V was still away in Western Europe begging for help from anyone willing to hear him.
Methone, February 1369
Alexandros Philanthropenos moved against Methone and Korone at the head of nearly 14,000 men and 38 Greek and Genoese galleys. The garrisons under Carlo Zeno were too weak at the moment to hold out for long if not reinforced.
Candia, March 1369
Vettor Pisani received the few news managing to slip out of the Venetian castles in the Morea with increasing concern. His fleet of 25 galleys was too weak to be able to directly challenge Philanthropenos, not without reinforcements and this were unlikely to come from Venice. Young Maniakes, was so far proving much more of a nuisance than his father had been over the years with his squadron operating variously out of Corfu, Bari and Otranto keeping the hands of the Venetian Adriatic squadron full. Peter had agreed with him for the need for the Cypriots to arm as many ships as they could but this was coming at a cost with Peter having to release part of his army.
Methone and Korone, May 1369
Forty-one Venetian, Cypriot and Hospitaller galleys helped by favorable winds entered the ports bringing over a thousand Turkish mercenaries along with supplies. The Sicilian sieges of the two Venetian fortresses would continue but the going would become much tougher.
Thrace, June 1369
The Ottomans had turned their attentions to the remaining Byzantine holdings in Thrace taking Saranta Ekklisies and Vizye. At the same time the campaign against the Bulgarians continued with several fortresses falling to the Ottomans.
Crete, September 1369
The campaign was proving too frustrating for king Peter's tastes. His joint army was only slightly numerically superior to Kallergis who had kept his advances checked. With increasingly bad news from Cyprus where the Turks had pushed the Cypriots out of their holdings in the Anatolian coast, renewed plague had hit the island and there was growing unrest against the absent king and the regency of his brother John, the king would decide to return to Nicosia to set things in order during the winter before he could return to pursue the war.
Rome, October 1369
Ioannis V kissed three times the feet of pope Urban V and proclaimed acceptance of the union of the churches or rather subordination of the Greek Church to the pope. It was humiliating but it was not as if the basileus could do much given the tragic situation of the empire.
Palermo, December 1369
It had taken some work to arrange the meeting, the empire might had dropped out of the war with Sicily but no formal peace had been arranged yet. Ioannis V would had been normally loath to come begging hat in hand the Sicilians. But it was not as if he had much option with the Turks running amok in Thrace conquering everything in sight. The regent who had come all the way from Syracuse looked at him coldly.
"So you are coming here, to seek help?
"It is needed. The Turks, have conquered most of Thrace, invaded Bulgaria, attack the Serbs, they are a danger for all of us. Including you"
"And what are we to do, stop the war with Venice, throw the Cretans to the wolves and instead come marching to Constantinople's aid?"
"Venice holds Crete for the last 160 years. Do a bunch of unruly peasants matter to you more than the Turks threatening Constantinople and all of us?"
"Actually they do, my late father in in law was very careful to teach me how much this poor peasants matter. He had been taught that from his own father. This is why this realm has kept prospering while the lands your great-grandfather had taken from Theodore's cousin had not. But is doesn't matter. The truth is I don't give a shit about your current predicament?"
"What?" that Ioannis V had been taken aback by the language was an understatement.
"You helped kill my husband, after attacking his envoys and now you expect me to come to your aid? That is NEVER going to happen. Now please do all of us a favor and leave."
The audience was over.
Nicosia, January 1370
The three knights barged into the kings bedroom killing Peter I in front of his mistress. The unpopular plans of the late king for one more campaign in the west, coupled with the multitude of adulteries with nobles wives and daughters had proven a lethal combination.
Otranto straits, March 1370
The Venetian Adriatic squadron slipped south past Sicilian patrols to link up with that of VettorPisani. The Council of Ten had taken seriously the letters of Pisani that with the Cypriots out of the war his fleet was now severely outnumbered. But the Venetians would be sighted further south and the Sicilian fleet in Greek waters would be ordered by Philanthropenos away before it could be trapped between the two enemy fleets and hole up in Piraeus to wait for their Sicilian brethren to come to their aid.
Sapienza, July 1370
The two fleets were about evenly matched in numbers. Philanthropenos and Ioannis Maniakes, the younger man tended to use the second surname, reminding his illustrious ancestor, had 56 galleys, the Genoese had refused to renew their contract. The Venetians had 49 with 6 more provided by the Hospitallers. But the Sicilians could draw on more marines thanks to the proximity of their army and Pisani was well aware that the Venetian manpower reserves were nearly exhausted. With casualties nearing 3,000 on each side and the Sicilians showing no signs of retreating, the Venetian fleet would disengage first. But eith Venice potentially exposed Pisani would take his fleet back north...
Methone, August 28th, 1370
The fortress surrendered under terms to Alexandros Philanthropenos, the Venetian garrison would be allowed to leave for Crete. Korone would follow two weeks later. And with the Venetian fleet now away the Sicilians could attack the minnor Aegean islands with relative impunity. By the end of the year Samos, Ikaria and Kos had been recovered, annd Kythera and Karpathos, held by Venetian feudatories since the 4th crusade would fall to the Greeks.
Crete, November 1370
With the Cypriot army gone after the death of Peter I, the Venetian army in the island had found itself on the defensive. Kallergis troops had puhed the Venetians out of most of their gains in the past two years.
Avignon, December 1370
Pierre Roger de Beaufort became pope Gregory XI following the death of Urban V. When the news of the election of yet another French pope would reach Italy they would not be received.
I think that after to be forced to swallow his pride, yet he managed to squander any and all, even if remote, chances that he would have to request help from the acting ruler from the one power more closer and capable to deliver any posible effective military help...
That's quite the understatement...
Woah, I am loving these unexpected update days! Just when I think I got the new rhythm down @Lascaris, ya gotta throw these curveballs!
On a cartographers note though, would Molos and Alonnisos have also fallen with Euboea in 1368? Or would they have been reconquered in 1370 with the other islands?
On a cartographers note though, would Molos and Alonnisos have also fallen with Euboea in 1368? Or would they have been reconquered in 1370 with the other islands?
I am surprised he didn’t turn to Adrienne the elder instead of Blanche.Ioannes’ father helped get her out of the marriage with the Serbian dude and she technically is still a Palaiologos. It probably wouldn’t end well seeing as she will likely be pissed over his role in the war(and likely her own father for making her a sex slave to this dirty old man), not to mention the Lascarid Empire is still busy with their own wars, but at the same she was the one who advocated non-violent means to respond to Ioannes’ killing of the Sicilian emissary, so she’s probably still partial to her Palaiologian relatives.
I think the venetians will have to seek terms. Constanople will revolt and call in the sicilians. Then with the sicilians at full strength a combined force fights the Turks. They conquer the Balkans. Stabilize everything. Then tamerlane. Then the reconquest of a devastated anatolia.
Time to place a Lascarid creature on the papal throne in Rome that legitimises all their demands like a degree of autonomy, Greek rites , right to appoint their own bishops etc(like the Gallician Church) ?
I can understand the reaction of Agnes/Blanche, but she could have been a bit more diplomatic, something like "we are not able to send assistance now, maybe later, in exchange for Gallipoli (Kallipoli), when it will be recovered from the Ottomans." Or to send just a token force.
an Angevin/Aragonese/Staufen King in Otl, would have really seized on this intolerance on the part of the Roman people to try to pull off a clever trick like this, knowing that the rest of Italy could agree ( provided that he is a compromise candidate accepted by all local actors )
Why should she do that?If the Lascarid Empire is in any position to send any forces, they could just take everything for themselves, including Constantinople.
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Especially as, technically, the Palaiologos are nothing but usurpers and the Lascarids are the legitimate Imperial Dynasty!
How would that be different from the current, 14th century, practices? Appointing your own bishops was I believe already a more or less informal practice, which was piece and center of the investiture controversy. As for Gallican church? Perhaps you meant Anglican. Gallican church was, I understand, more an informal epithet to the informal political autonomy of the French clergy, but that did not cover liturgical or theological autonomy.
Back in the middle ages, the (proto)national monarchs already appointed their "candidates" to the bishoprics, and the pope confirmed them if the relations were good enough, or excommunicated the whole kingdom if not.
So, in the Lascarid case, or more precisely for the Basilian dominated church in the Lascarid empire, the question is not so much about the right to appoint bishops, which every other powerful monarch in Europe did as they see fit, but the liturgical question, ie the Greek rite and language, and their acceptance or not as a part of the Catholic christendom, as opposed to being crypto-orthodoxes.
Of course, this does compound with the traditional power struggle over appointments of bishops and church revenues, and does seriously amplify it.