The Dakai Dynasty: Rise of the Heavenly Kingdom

[Sabot Cat]

So what happened to running your updates by me beforehand?

I didn't want to wear you out. D:

I will send you the draft for the next chapter though.

Interesting update though . Some thoughts:

I'm wondering how they could *get* Yixuan to Beijing, seeing as it's surrounded by Taiping territory.

By Russian ship. =)

That's a fast promotion! Good choice though.

He was offered a rather prestigious position due to his skills in OTL, a little later.

This is going to have a massive long-term impact, both in the quality of the civil service, but also with the potential for later reform/revolution. I've heard it said by many people that the reason traditional Chinese civil service exams focused on how to write pleasing poems in the classical style was more to select for people who were capable of obeying instructions and pleasing authority figures.

I've heard as much too, and this might be an ulterior motive to challenging that, considering Yung Wing's pro-democracy advocacy in our timeline [Also, all of his reform ideas are taken nearly ad verbatim from his OTL proposals to the Taiping Kingdom, documented in his autobiography. It's good reading!]

 

[eliphas8]

So subscribed!

 

[eliphas8]

So from the looks of things the taiping are going to be making a lot of fairly radical shifts back and forth in their ideology.

 

[MonAngel]

Subscribed.

Very interesting TL. Earlier fall of Qing Dynasty better for Mongolia.

The new and improved map, featuring the leaders of each region:

Author's Note- The italicized states are vassals of the Taiping Kingdom; quotes around "East Turkestan" because no one in that time period called the entire region that. Russian territorial annexations aren't shown, and neither are direct colonial holdings other than the international areas.

I think region around Hailaar up to Great Hinggan Mountain should be Mongolian land unless it is annexed by Russia. Region is heavily populated by Mongolians. One of the military leaders of 1911 independence movement Damdinsuren and Haisan gun was ablle to take control of region but had to concede the region under pressure from Russian Empire and Chinese as Manchurian Railway was passed through.
Since in 1858 there is no Trans Siberian Railway thus regions importance is not so much.

I'm curious why Mongolia rebelled against the Qing dynasty in TTL - from what I've read, there weren't any uprisings in the same period, and indeed several of the generals fighting against the Taiping and Nian rebels were Mongolian nobility - Senggelinqin, Jirhangga, etc. Considering that they seemed invested in the Qing dynasty, what caused Mongolia to break off?

Also, no sign of Yaqub Beg in Xinjiang ITTL?

I don't think they are rebelled. Its just because Qing Dynasty is no longer able to control them and Mongolians see Qing Dynasty is finished thus they are now independent. While there was some pro-Manchu nobles most Mongolians were more pro-independence.
Mongolians were always pro-independence. Even initial submission to Qing Dynasty was more of vassalization than direct submission.

 

[Sabot Cat]

So subscribed!

Yay, I hope I don't disappoint~

So from the looks of things the taiping are going to be making a lot of fairly radical shifts back and forth in their ideology.

Certainly; Taiping ideology in this timeline is nothing if not dynamic.

Subscribed. Very interesting TL.

Much obliged! =)

Earlier fall of Qing Dynasty better for Mongolia.

They certainly have more territory at least!

I think region around Hailaar up to Great Hinggan Mountain should be Mongolian land unless it is annexed by Russia. Region is heavily populated by Mongolians. One of the military leaders of 1911 independence movement Damdinsuren and Haisan gun was ablle to take control of region but had to concede the region under pressure from Russian Empire and Chinese as Manchurian Railway was passed through.
Since in 1858 there is no Trans Siberian Railway thus regions importance is not so much.

I'll see what I can do to investigate the borders here more and change the map accordingly; this has been the trickiest part of the map, as originally I showed all of Inner Mongolia as a part of the Mongolian state, but some thought it would be more plausible if this was a part of the Qing rump state.

I don't think they are rebelled. Its just because Qing Dynasty is no longer able to control them and Mongolians see Qing Dynasty is finished thus they are now independent. While there was some pro-Manchu nobles most Mongolians were more pro-independence.
Mongolians were always pro-independence. Even initial submission to Qing Dynasty was more of vassalization than direct submission.

Yep, that's precisely the situation.

 

[MonAngel]

They certainly have more territory at least!

Indeed... Also much better development.

I'll see what I can do to investigate the borders here more and change the map accordingly; this has been the trickiest part of the map, as originally I showed all of Inner Mongolia as a part of the Mongolian state, but some thought it would be more plausible if this was a part of the Qing rump state.

More natural border would be Greater Hinggan Mountain, but I'm Ok with your map.

Yep, that's precisely the situation.

I think they will be more like Russian Empire semi-protectorate. While 1858's Mongolia wasn't pro Russia like 1911, they need external patron to survive, economically and otherwise.

 

[Sabot Cat]

Indeed... Also much better development.

It would be certainly interesting to see how Mongolia develops with an earlier independence.

More natural border would be Greater Hinggan Mountain, but I'm Ok with your map.

I'll see if I can find a basemap with more natural features detailed on it to use as a reference.

I think they will be more like Russian Empire semi-protectorate. While 1858's Mongolia wasn't pro Russia like 1911, they need external patron to survive, economically and otherwise.

I'm not sure if Russia is actively supporting them because of the conflict of interest with their Qing puppet state, but it's not unlikely they support its existence to prevent it from being swayed by the Taiping Kingdom.

 

[eliphas8]

I think they will be more like Russian Empire semi-protectorate. While 1858's Mongolia wasn't pro Russia like 1911, they need external patron to survive, economically and otherwise.

Situated where they are they're fully capable of playing their neighbors off against each other to have more earnest independence.

 

[MonAngel]

It would be certainly interesting to see how Mongolia develops with an earlier independence.

They will be more susceptible to Russian economic and cultural inflience, thus to European culture. SIcne nomads are more adaptive to new culture, they will openly accept Western culture than other East Asian countries. Only problem, Mongolia is extremely poor. So they need a lot of external funding.

I'm not sure if Russia is actively supporting them because of the conflict of interest with their Qing puppet state, but it's not unlikely they support its existence to prevent it from being swayed by the Taiping Kingdom.

I think they would... Nikolay Muravyov-Amursky then General Governor of Far East was major supporter of makiing Mongolia under Russian protectorate. By source I read (http://www.amazon.com/dp/9992900385) he prepared plan for making Mongolia independent from China then swallow it.

For strategic term Mongolia was very important for Russia. Mongolia was very useful buffer for its Far east. Once Mongolia falls to hostile power, Russian Far East can become cut off from Moscow.

 

[Sabot Cat]

MonAngel, the fate of Mongolia shall be revealed... in the next installment! Or two.

But in all seriousness, I appreciate your input, and I'll incorporate some of the information you've given me into the chapter I'm writing.

 

[MonAngel]

MonAngel, the fate of Mongolia shall be revealed... in the next installment! Or two.

Most likely it will divided....

But in all seriousness, I appreciate your input, and I'll incorporate some of the information you've given me into the chapter I'm writing.

If you need help I'm glad to provide you...

 

[Sabot Cat]

Most likely it will divided....

Don't be so sure.

If you need help I'm glad to provide you...

Thank you for the offer, but I'm okay for the time being~ =)

 

[Rich Rostrom]

A new political crisis soon emerged however, due to events unfolding abroad. Abolitionist
President William Seward...

Seward was anti-slavery, but not an abolitionist (which had a very specific meaning in the U.S. at the time.

of the Republican Party was elected in November 1860, and one by one the slave-holding states succeeded...

ITYM seceded. Also, it is highly unlikely that all the slave states would declare secession, or that they would do it "one by one"; OTL four slave states never declared secession, and there were two distinct waves of secession.

In any case... I recommend strongly against this, unless you want to write a full TL of American history from 1860 onward as well as this Chinese history. And that would be enormous work. Plus by implication, a full TL of European history, and Latin history, and ...

One needn't declare a butterfly trap, but minimizing changes outside the scope of your TL subject seems prudent. It also avoids the pitfall of inventing events and personalities for milieus one isn't familiar with, and committing historical howlers.

 

[06294086]

I still have reservations about this "Taiping Kingdom" but you do make a good job of writing this ATL as if reading the OTL timeline where Western powers encroaching China's sovereignty in the late era of Qing dynasty.

So far, I don't think the situation for China is significantly better than in OTL in fact it's even worse by becoming protectorate(s) to foreign powers.

Let's see whether the "Taiping Kingdom" can regain China's real sovereignty and recover the "lost" lands.

 

[Rich Rostrom]

So far, I don't think the situation for China is significantly better than in OTL in fact it's even worse by becoming protectorate(s) to foreign powers.

It's substantially better. The corrupt, incompetent, reactionary Qing are effectively gone, including the Dowager Empress, whose bad influence can scarcely be overstated. Also, the demented Tai Ping founder has become a harmless martyr, sparing China most of the horrific damage of the OTL Tai Ping wars. China has a sane, competent, benevolent ruler, something it lacked throughout this period.

China, like Japan OTL, and even before Japan ATL, is poised to open its mind and start learning from the West - about 35 years earlier than OTL.

 

[eliphas8]

It's substantially better. The corrupt, incompetent, reactionary Qing are effectively gone, including the Dowager Empress, whose bad influence can scarcely be overstated. Also, the demented Tai Ping founder has become a harmless martyr, sparing China most of the horrific damage of the OTL Tai Ping wars. China has a sane, competent, benevolent ruler, something it lacked throughout this period.

China, like Japan OTL, and even before Japan ATL, is poised to open its mind and start learning from the West - about 35 years earlier than OTL.

Benevolent is going a bit far. Any absolute monarchy is essentially working towards it's own self interest over all else. This one is just better than the Qing because it's primary goal isn't about preventing internal overthrow and is instead focused on fighting external dangers and modernizing.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

It's fascinating to imagine a China split up into ethno-religious states. Though to be fair, both East Turkestan and Yunnan/Ningxia are on the periphery, not to mention Tibet and Mongolia. That is one huge East Turkestan.

 

[Sabot Cat]

Seward was anti-slavery, but not an abolitionist (which had a very specific meaning in the U.S. at the time.

ITYM seceded. Also, it is highly unlikely that all the slave states would declare secession, or that they would do it "one by one"; OTL four slave states never declared secession, and there were two distinct waves of secession.

All fixed, thanks for pointing these out.

[This is what happens when Selecus doesn't read over my chapters first, haha]

In any case... I recommend strongly against this, unless you want to write a full TL of American history from 1860 onward as well as this Chinese history. And that would be enormous work. Plus by implication, a full TL of European history, and Latin history, and ...

One needn't declare a butterfly trap, but minimizing changes outside the scope of your TL subject seems prudent. It also avoids the pitfall of inventing events and personalities for milieus one isn't familiar with, and committing historical howlers.

I'm more familiar with the United States than China, and I'm not really going to be focusing on that region. I just want to imply differences in the wider world, a la For Want of a Nail. They will not be getting that much of the focus [however they will be briefly mentioned and outlined in a logical fashion, of course].

I still have reservations about this "Taiping Kingdom" but you do make a good job of writing this ATL as if reading the OTL timeline where Western powers encroaching China's sovereignty in the late era of Qing dynasty.

Thanks.

So far, I don't think the situation for China is significantly better than in OTL in fact it's even worse by becoming protectorate(s) to foreign powers.

Let's see whether the "Taiping Kingdom" can regain China's real sovereignty and recover the "lost" lands.

We shall see.

It's substantially better. The corrupt, incompetent, reactionary Qing are effectively gone, including the Dowager Empress, whose bad influence can scarcely be overstated. Also, the demented Tai Ping founder has become a harmless martyr, sparing China most of the horrific damage of the OTL Tai Ping wars. China has a sane, competent, benevolent ruler, something it lacked throughout this period.

China, like Japan OTL, and even before Japan ATL, is poised to open its mind and start learning from the West - about 35 years earlier than OTL.

Not sure if I agree that the Dowager Empress or the Qing are responsible for China's condition during this period, but yes, the Taiping infrastructure right now puts them a bit ahead of the curve than OTL in terms of economics, education, technology, and military.

Benevolent is going a bit far. Any absolute monarchy is essentially working towards it's own self interest over all else. This one is just better than the Qing because it's primary goal isn't about preventing internal overthrow and is instead focused on fighting external dangers and modernizing.

Yep.

It's fascinating to imagine a China split up into ethno-religious states. Though to be fair, both East Turkestan and Yunnan/Ningxia are on the periphery, not to mention Tibet and Mongolia. That is one huge East Turkestan.

It's definitely made me appreciate the diversity of China more, at least. It's not as homogeneous as the West likes to make it out to be.

 

[King of the Uzbeks]

Interesting (In the Chinese Sense). I know nothing about China and I hope to Learn.

 

[Sharunaku]

Interesting (In the Chinese Sense). I know nothing about China and I hope to Learn.

Well, first, "interesting" in Chinese has no such special meanings, so you may as well say interesting in the English sense


Why's there an awkward corridor of Yunnan betweew Sichuan and Tibet?