The Dakai Dynasty: Rise of the Heavenly Kingdom

First, a map, please.

Secondly, if the U.S. allies with the Taiping kingdom, this will have major ramifications for the latter half of the 19th century. Granted, the US will probably still win the Civil War, but this will be...interesting, to say the least.

How far are you going to take this?
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
First, a map, please.

I have one prepared, but because I'm not a very experienced in map making, it's mostly a fill-in-the-blanks type thing. I'm in the process of making a better one, and I'm also still triple-checking the status of the northwestern provinces, and the likely relations of the peoples there.

Secondly, if the U.S. allies with the Taiping kingdom, this will have major ramifications for the latter half of the 19th century. Granted, the US will probably still win the Civil War, but this will be...interesting, to say the least.

Indeed, and I hope you follow the story to that point~ ;)

How far are you going to take this?

Timeline draft runs to about the 1880's, with pre-planning going into the 20th Century. :)
 
This site seemed to have a favourable opinion of the Taipings, but I would rather hope groups like the Nian, or the Heaven and Earth Society, or the Black Flag Army could take amid the Taiping War chaos, not the Taiping themselves.

The worst side of the Taipings was their theology, which was 1) extreme and intolerant 2) very personal. Some of them may be Qing propaganda, but the fact that the Heavenly Kingdom suffered a hell lot of infighting partly due to their theology, hints that it would likely continue doing so after they win, not mentioning potential religious conflict with the Chinese masses, the minorities and the foreigners.

I hope Shi Dakai would change that, to gradually shed its religious aura, and assume the traditional cultural role of a Chinese Son of Heaven. Just like the Ming emperor shifted away from the Ming Cult. (A rebellion based on a polytheist cult was more likely to do this than Taiping.)

After all, according to Zuo Zongtang, Shi Dakai was not familiar with Taiping religious terminology, and probably wasn't interested in their religion after all.

3. The word "Shangdi" has been used since at least the Shang dynasty and the word "Huangdi" which means "emperor" has been used since Qin dynasty.

Every Chinese know their difference and I don't see any reasons why Shi Dakai choose to not use the term "Huangdi" and use the term king (Wang) instead.

There is no reason at all to say that the term emperor cannot be used since it is supposedly reserved to "God"; just because the two terms happen to use the same character "di".

You could ask OTL's Hong Xiuquan why he used 'Tian Wang' instead of 'Huangdi'; it was an original Taiping Kingdom custom.

How to name the supreme monarch was a problem as old as China itself.

It was "di" in the Shang Dynasty, but the Zhou Dynasty change it to "wang" because they believed that "di" should only be reserved for the divine, an act the Taiping theology found themselves sympathetic with. (Yes, the God-Worshiping Society did use Chinese traditions to justify their entirely new religion, and I hope ITTL Shi Dakai could use make use of this to reconcile with the traditions).
 
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Nice revision :) Is the theology/revision appendix going to come in a future update?

Kulja, Priamurye, and Primorye were annexed outright

Kulja? As in Yining/Gulja, in Xinjiang? This could do with a bit more elaboration. It's unlikely the Qing would have any control over it still what with the loss of authority, and likely Hui/other Muslim rebellion/independence in western China, so did the Russians co-opt the local population or just march in and conquer? (They'd also be concerned about spread of radicalism to their own Muslim minorities.) How much of Xinjiang ended up falling into Russian hands?


Furthermore, all non-citizens of nations the Taiping Kingdom was not at war with would have the right to extraterritoriality, as well as free travel and trade at designated treaty ports; this provision was negotiated specifically to deter any European power from challenging the entire arrangement.
This is an extremely broad-sweeping move. If nothing else, I'd think they'd restrict it to just European/Western nations at least.
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
Nice revision :)

Thanks, it wouldn't have been possible with your help! :)

Is the theology/revision appendix going to come in a future update?

I wanted to work on it more before release, and because further revisions made it more spoiler-y; however, it is forthcoming.

Kulja? As in Yining/Gulja, in Xinjiang? This could do with a bit more elaboration. It's unlikely the Qing would have any control over it still what with the loss of authority, and likely Hui/other Muslim rebellion/independence in western China, so did the Russians co-opt the local population or just march in and conquer? (They'd also be concerned about spread of radicalism to their own Muslim minorities.) How much of Xinjiang ended up falling into Russian hands?

"Kulja" is not actually controlled by Russia de facto, but de jure; the same treaty gave them full access to Beijing for instance, even though it's not in their control.

This is an extremely broad-sweeping move. If nothing else, I'd think they'd restrict it to just European/Western nations at least.

Oops, I accidentally deleted that bit while rewording the prose; I'll restore it. :)
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
This site seemed to have a favourable opinion of the Taipings, but I would rather hope groups like the Nian, or the Heaven and Earth Society, or the Black Flag Army could take amid the Taiping War chaos, not the Taiping themselves.

I am neutral to the Taipings in this timeline, and have a somewhat unfavorable view of them in OTL. I personally have little sympathy for a theocracy that supports capital punishment for non-violent crimes, nearly complete sex segregation, and had such a transparently opportunistic ruling class. This timeline's kingdom is not that one.

The worst side of the Taipings was their theology, which was 1) extreme and intolerant 2) very personal. Some of them may be Qing propaganda, but the fact that the Heavenly Kingdom suffered a hell lot of infighting partly due to their theology, hints that it would likely continue doing so after they win, not mentioning potential religious conflict with the Chinese masses, the minorities and the foreigners.

I hope Shi Dakai would change that, to gradually shed its religious aura, and assume the traditional cultural role of a Chinese Son of Heaven. Just like the Ming emperor shifted away from the Ming Cult. (A rebellion based on a polytheist cult was more likely to do this than Taiping.)

In my opinion, that unique religious aura and zeal are a part of what makes them a fresh, new, revolutionary movement which shakes up the pre-existing order in favor of whoever shows loyalty to them.

Nonetheless, you're correct that King Shi Dakai has had a moderating influence on the movement, as well as the officials he's surrounded himself with. I have an appendix dedicated to their theology and religious practices which will be posted with the next installment which will illuminate this.

After all, according to Zuo Zongtang, Shi Dakai was not familiar with Taiping religious terminology, and probably wasn't interested in their religion after all.

I was under the impression he was a rather pragmatic and open-minded administrator, who would take that approach with the religious sphere. Shi Dakai is himself quiet on most of these matters, unlike his Chancellor. So, yes, this characterization is the one I'm going for. :)


How to name the supreme monarch was a problem as old as China itself.

It was "di" in the Shang Dynasty, but the Zhou Dynasty change it to "wang" because they believed that "di" should only be reserved for the divine, an act the Taiping theology found themselves sympathetic with. (Yes, the God-Worshiping Society did use Chinese traditions to justify their entirely new religion, and I hope ITTL Shi Dakai could use make use of this to reconcile with the traditions).

He has indeed. For instance, much like the OTL Taiping movement, his land-reforms have similarities with those ascribed to the utopian state of The Rites of Zhou. I also want to say that Mohist philosophy will become in vogue again among the scholarly classes, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how much was known of the Mohist canon in the mid-19th Century.
 
The Dakai Dynasty: Rise of the Heavenly Kingdom

Preface: Stagnation and Struggle in the Qing Dynasty's China
This seemed over the top, but the ATL PoV is very cleverly insinuated.
In the face of this catastrophe, Shi Dakai took on the mantle of leadership, and rallied the troops against the Qing in the memory of their martyred leaders.

So the PoD is the replacement of Hong Xiuquan with someone sane (and very capable). The question on this is: Hong Xiuquan was enormously charismatic, from what I've read. That's what held the Tai Ping together. Does Shi Dakai have comparable gifts?

[Author's Note: Pinyin was butterflied of course, but I'm using unhistorical orthography because I'd rather not inflict Wades-Giles upon you all. I'm also not a personal supporter of the Qing conquest theory, but it has more backers in this timeline. Updates will be weekly. :)]

Wade-Giles would be butterflied too. And there'd be no point in inventing a new system of your own, because no one could read it.

Will follow this eagerly.
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
This seemed over the top, but the ATL PoV is very cleverly insinuated.

I'm glad that came across; it can be a kind of off-putting introduction honestly, but again, it's a part of the point. ^_^;

So the PoD is the replacement of Hong Xiuquan with someone sane (and very capable).

Hit the nail on the head, yep.

The question on this is: Hong Xiuquan was enormously charismatic, from what I've read. That's what held the Tai Ping together. Does Shi Dakai have comparable gifts?

I believe he does. He had an incredible amount of popularity in OTL despite never ascending to similar heights of power, at the very least.

Wade-Giles would be butterflied too. And there'd be no point in inventing a new system of your own, because no one could read it.

Ah, I thought it was slightly older; I'll note Legge romanization instead. :)

Will follow this eagerly.

Much obliged! :)
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
The new and improved map, featuring the leaders of each region:

6hgyWFK.png


Author's Note- The italicized states are vassals of the Taiping Kingdom; quotes around "East Turkestan" because no one in that time period called the entire region that. Russian territorial annexations aren't shown, and neither are direct colonial holdings other than the international areas.
 
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In my opinion, that unique religious aura and zeal are a part of what makes them a fresh, new, revolutionary movement which shakes up the pre-existing order in favor of whoever shows loyalty to them.
Fanaticism is a double-edged sword. Hopefully one edge is to be minimized while the other edge can cut through and make a difference.

One practice Shi must reverse was Hong Xiuquan's tendency to censor books. My favourite example was how the Heavenly King changed Sun Tzu's Art of War Chapter VIII Nine Variations to Eight Variations, deleting the phrase "There are commands of the sovereign which must not be obeyed". :eek: If such attitude continued, Taiping would be a cultural disaster.

I also want to say that Mohist philosophy will become in vogue again among the scholarly classes, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how much was known of the Mohist canon in the mid-19th Century.

All the best with Mohist revival! Officially subscribed.

Mid to Late Qing scholars spent their time to study almost every Chinese classical canon inside out, so don't worry about any lack of familiarity. There is a list of book titles studying Mozi here, and the first six of them was before or during OTL Taiping. I'm sure there were more before the wars.

On the other hand, I found Zhang Zhidong spending time criticizing Mohism in his Quan Xuan Pian. He wouldn't need to do so if the philosophy did not have some following IOTL.
 
My initial worry about Shi Dakai in this timeline was that like many historical figures, we don't have that great information about them OTL, and what we do have reads like an idealized/stylized heroic version that's been whitewashed (it does make sense for him to be glamorized as such in contrast to the other far more brutal/intolerant Taiping), so there's always the concern of author projection and making him into a magical amorphous fix-everything construct.

But I think the author is doing a pretty good job of avoiding that, thus far at least. :)
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
Fanaticism is a double-edged sword. Hopefully one edge is to be minimized while the other edge can cut through and make a difference.

True, and it has thus far. :)

One practice Shi must reverse was Hong Xiuquan's tendency to censor books. My favourite example was how the Heavenly King changed Sun Tzu's Art of War Chapter VIII Nine Variations to Eight Variations, deleting the phrase "There are commands of the sovereign which must not be obeyed". :eek: If such attitude continued, Taiping would be a cultural disaster.

Such censorship never really got started in this state, as Dakai had a more military-oriented administration.

All the best with Mohist revival! Officially subscribed.

Yay, welcome aboard! :D

Mid to Late Qing scholars spent their time to study almost every Chinese classical canon inside out, so don't worry about any lack of familiarity. There is a list of book titles studying Mozi here, and the first six of them was before or during OTL Taiping. I'm sure there were more before the wars.

On the other hand, I found Zhang Zhidong spending time criticizing Mohism in his Quan Xuan Pian. He wouldn't need to do so if the philosophy did not have some following IOTL.

Ah, okay, thank you very much; expect Neo-Mohism soon, then. :)

My initial worry about Shi Dakai in this timeline was that like many historical figures, we don't have that great information about them OTL, and what we do have reads like an idealized/stylized heroic version that's been whitewashed (it does make sense for him to be glamorized as such in contrast to the other far more brutal/intolerant Taiping), so there's always the concern of author projection and making him into a magical amorphous fix-everything construct.

But I think the author is doing a pretty good job of avoiding that, thus far at least. :)

Thank you, I'm trying to depict him as realistically as possible, although some of his military deeds and personal habits would be implausibly good if he were a completely fictional personage. Nonetheless, he has flaws, which will be exposed later on. No spoilers though. ;)
 
I'm curious why Mongolia rebelled against the Qing dynasty in TTL - from what I've read, there weren't any uprisings in the same period, and indeed several of the generals fighting against the Taiping and Nian rebels were Mongolian nobility - Senggelinqin, Jirhangga, etc. Considering that they seemed invested in the Qing dynasty, what caused Mongolia to break off?

Also, no sign of Yaqub Beg in Xinjiang ITTL?
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
I'm curious why Mongolia rebelled against the Qing dynasty in TTL - from what I've read, there weren't any uprisings in the same period, and indeed several of the generals fighting against the Taiping and Nian rebels were Mongolian nobility - Senggelinqin, Jirhangga, etc. Considering that they seemed invested in the Qing dynasty, what caused Mongolia to break off?

The Qing Dynasty fell, and in the intervening time Mongolia declared independence because they didn't recognize the new Taiping regime; there was no one else they could evidently ally with at the time. The new Qing kingdom is also little more to them than a Russian puppet based out of Manchuria, so they're keeping their distance.

Also, no sign of Yaqub Beg in Xinjiang ITTL?

Not yet, no. ;)
 

Sabot Cat

Banned
Chapter 3: The Twin Palaces of Beijing

"The wise man who has charge of governing the empire should know the cause of disorder before he can put it in order. Unless he knows its cause, he cannot regulate it."

-Mozi

Taiping-Qing enmity would intensify on August 7th 1857, when the Russian quadrant of Beijing hosted Emperor Yixuan at the former Summer Palace; ten days later, North Prince Wei Changhui of the Taiping Kingdom arrived at the Old Summer Palace in the American quadrant. Both the Taiping and the Qing refused to recognize the presence of the other in the city, and this unstable state of affairs, combined with the frightening display of Western power in the Battle of Beijing, swallowed up lingering feelings of conservatism in the Dakai court.

King Dakai promptly promoted Ambassador to the U.S. Yung Wing to Minister of Education, a newly created post; Minister Wing had long-standing desires for reform of the Taiping Kingdom, and was given a better hand to do so with the current situation after he returned from the United States. The autumn and winter of 1857-1858 saw the establishment of the following in the Taiping Kingdom, at least on paper:

1. The standardization and codification of the Heavenly Army's military organization, which consisted of princedoms, armies, divisions, regiments, and companies under princes, generals, division-generals, colonels, captains, lieutenants, sergeants, and privates, as well as three classes of brigades depending on time spent in service.
2. The foundation of the Heavenly Navy, with ranks modeled on the United States Navy, and further, complete subordination to the King with no princely intermediates.
3. The creation of the Taiping Kingdom Military Academy and the Tianjing Naval Academy for training.
4. The broadening of civil service exams to include knowledge pertinent to one's position, such as science, mathematics, economics, geography, engineering, etc.
5. The establishment of the metric system as the standards for weight and measure for the Tianjing Banking Corporation, as well as all regulated trade and travel.
6. The opening of graded schools for the people, with locations first opening in Tianjing, Guangzhou, Wahau, et. al. Its structure was modeled after American schools, while content was geared toward scientific and Biblical civil service exams.
7. The creation of industrial schools to teach trades and care for neglected children.

To fulfill his lofty goals, Ambassador Yung Wing organized a mission to send hundreds of Chinese students abroad to learn in American schools, while Western professionals to head institutions of higher education, and to advise in various ministries.

In the spring of 1858, the Taiping Kingdom saw massive gains in other areas. Local Hui and Salar Muslim revolutionaries in the western provinces of Shaanxi, Gansu, Qinghai, Ningxia and Xinjiang ousted remaining Qing troops and officials, loosely under the command of Ma Hualong, leader of the Sufi order Jahriyya. Ma Hualong financed the war through the profits of the caravan trade that went through Jahriyya's headquarters in Jinjipu, although their victories were also made possible through support from the neighboring Pingnan Guo sultanate, and by having capable generals like Ma Zhan'ao of Linxia, Ma Guiyuan of Xining, and Ma Wenlu of Suzhou.

King Shi Dakai confirmed Ma Hualong as the regional leader of the area that would come to be known as East Turkestan. Ma Hualong and his generals reciprocated by pledging loyalty to the Taiping Kingdom. Expeditions were sent to Greater Mongolia, which had established independence from the Qing after their collapse under the regional Mongolian Buddhist leader, the seventh Jebtsundamba, named Agvaanchoyjivanchugperenlaijamts. His officials radiated an aura of disinterest and possibly disrespect with the Taiping diplomats, maintaining a line of neutrality in the Taiping-Qing conflict. The Mongols were thus the exception to the generally harmonious relations curried with the regional cliques that had emerged in the post-revolutionary order.

The Tianjing Banking Corporation meanwhile was receiving sizable funding from dues on trade and travel with their client states as well as foreign merchants. Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong in particular were all quickly becoming sources of profit, as the Taiping Kingdom taxed European and American exports into the Chinese mainland. These financed Wing's educational reforms, as well as the building of a more stable civil government.

One of the biggest problems for the kingdom discovered by this new civil administration at the time was the enforcement of the tobacco, alcohol and opium prohibitions, as well as the prevention of gambling and prostitution. King Dakai was warned that the heavy-handed manner in which some Princes were enforcing these laws, up to and including capital punishment, was detrimental to the image of the Taiping Kingdom. Further, criminal networks starting to emerge to distribute these goods and services.

In September 1859, a royal decree was promulgated to address these concerns, legalizing alcohol, tobacco and gambling but levying a large excise tax upon them. Opium and prostitution were still prohibited, and thus illegal trade remained. Bribery was rampant among enforcement officials because of it, but King Dakai was completely unwilling to moderate his policies. On November 10th 1859, the court was shocked when Prince Li Xiucheng was stabbed to death in broad daylight by opium dealing bandits.

Prince Chen Kunshu, Minister of Justice, suggested that the murder was a result of the populace not knowing the difference between what is right [shi] and what is wrong [fei] saying, “our people require models [fa] of upright action, and it is the duty of the benevolent man to seek to promote what is beneficial, and eliminate what is harmful.” Prince Kunshu had been influenced by Mohist philosophy, and helped to engender a neo-Mohist revival among members of the court in the aftermath of the Prince Xiucheng's assassination. King Dakai decreed an excise tax for 'books that promote wrong' on the advice of Chancellor Rengan in November 1859, as many Ministers and Princes started to oppose decadent musical performances and elaborate burial practices on the basis that they 'did not benefit the people', as they needed to provide better models for them. Prince Kunshu did not, however, adopt a harder stance in regards to criminal punishment as Minister of Justice. This was because Mozi had stated that heavy-handed justice was one of the four disasters that unrighteous rulers inflict upon their subjects, and thus Prince Kunshu felt that the opiate trade would be mitigated once the people were furnished with better standards to conform upwards to.

Chancellor Rengan believed this to be a mistake, and suggested the creation of a secret police force to stem the tide of corruption and maintain the integrity of the banking system, which was suffering from the growing opiate trade. In March 1860, he founded the Heavenly Jinyiwei, which were given autonomy to arrest, interrogate, and punish anyone. They were to be royal guards, political commissars, and prosecutors of the enemies of the sovereign, distinguished from other police and military groups by their ever present firearms. The same year, Chancellor Rengan also presided over the Heavenly Navy's first fleet at Formosa, while the size of the civil government grew with the new educational standards.

A new political crisis soon emerged however, due to events unfolding abroad. Anti-slavery President William Seward of the Republican Party was elected in November 1860, and in a wave the slave-holding states seceded and formed the Sovereign States of America, sparking the American Civil War. The U.S. Navy left from the shores of Taiping Formosa, and the Royal Navy swept in after them.
 
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Sabot Cat

Banned
President William Seward?

The butterflies are flapping, I see.

Yep! Based on how he was pretty much the forerunner for the Republican primaries and was thiiiiis close to winning them. In this timeline, he did. The Confederate States of America also have a slightly different name on the same token. I think 'Sovereign States of America' sounds better anyway. They can be the SS to the US. :p

Waiting for more, of course.

Thanks, more is definitely coming; I have nearly completed drafts up to Chapter 7 or so. :) [However, this doesn't mean I won't take suggestions! Commentators might help steer content.]
 
So what happened to running your updates by me beforehand? ;)

Interesting update though :) . Some thoughts:

Taiping-Qing enmity would intensify on August 7th 1857, when the Russian quadrant of Beijing hosted Emperor Yixuan at the former Summer Palace;

I'm wondering how they could *get* Yixuan to Beijing, seeing as it's surrounded by Taiping territory.

King Dakai promptly promoted Ambassador to the U.S. Yung Wing to Minister of Education, a newly created post; Minister Wing had long-standing desires for reform of the Taiping Kingdom, and was given a better hand to do so with the current situation after he returned from the United States.
That's a fast promotion! Good choice though.

4. The broadening of civil service exams to include knowledge pertinent to one's position, such as science, mathematics, economics, geography, engineering, etc.

This is going to have a massive long-term impact, both in the quality of the civil service, but also with the potential for later reform/revolution. I've heard it said by many people that the reason traditional Chinese civil service exams focused on how to write pleasing poems in the classical style was more to select for people who were capable of obeying instructions and pleasing authority figures.
 
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