Sports What Ifs.

[Sigma7]

If Hill is healthy in 70, what does that mean for Mr Enigma, Duane Thomas?

And, if they win in 70, do they repeat the next year, or come up short?

On Thomas...I don't know. It's always good to stockpile at high risk positions, like running back, perhaps they still take him with their first round pick in the 1970 draft. Walt Garrison and Dan Reeves weren't getting any younger, so I think they still take him.

Now, on to Super Bowl V.

If a healthy Calvin Hill plays that game, I think the Cowboys win with a three-headed monster on the run: Garrison, Hill and Thomas and that could create a HUGE butterfly:

Craig Morton probably doesn't throw as often as he did in OTL SBV, so that reduces the chances of him throwing any one of those three picks.

That's not to say he doesn't get picked at all, but I think, with the ground game eating the field out from under the Colts with a steady cycle of fresh legs coming out of the backfield, it opens up the passing game and Morton might have a big day passing too; perhaps not so much in the number of passes thrown or total yardage, but in completion percentage and quality (and timing) of those passes.

If he has a big game and the Cowboys win, Morton becomes the guy not only did what Don Meredith couldn't do (Get them to a Super Bowl) but now he also becomes the guy who got them to their first Super Bowl and also won and looked good doing it.

The 800 lb. gorilla in the room now becomes: Morton has just become the face of the franchise and Staubach may very well be done, at least in Dallas.

1971 draft...Dallas picks 26th instead of 25th and I'm not sure that makes much difference in picks, UNLESS, they trade up in the draft and use Staubach to do it.

Now, obviously, if they're giving up Staubach, I'm favoring Staubach to factor in to some sort of package for LA for the Rams two first round picks (specifically, the SAME two players the Rams took with those two picks; LB Isiah Robertson at 10th and DE Jack Youngblood at 20th); perhaps the Cowboys find a taker among the first three picks that year: the Pats, Saints or Oilers, to give them one of the first three picks in the draft, plus some more picks (2nd and 3rd rounders either in the '71 or '72 drafts) or something to that effect, but there's probably plenty of other deals they could come up with with all sorts of teams.

Personally, I like Staubach as the Cowboys QB of Legend, but if Morton has that kind of offensive machine to work with to keep the passing game open, and can stay healthy, the team is his after they win Super Bowl V and repeat in Super Bowl VI.

That's kinda why I favor a combo of PODs when I ponder my 'Dallasty':

1. Staubach graduated by the USNA but the USN declines to commission him and grants him a discharge in June of '64, allowing him to sign with Dallas out of college.
2. Calvin Hill stays healthy.
3. Craig Morton still taken at #5 in 1965 and then traded for picks after Staubach wins the starting job (possibly taking it from Meredith by '66 or '67) that help the Cowboys build up BIG for a dominant run through the late 60's to the late 70's.

But I'm a Cowboys fan...even if I DO hate Jerry Jones, feel Jason Garrett coaches with the passion of a wet sponge and would rather they trade Tony Bromo to KC or Phoenix for picks, swipe Alex Smith AND Tim Tebow from the Hells those two are stuck in, and make Rob Ryan their head coach. (He's crazy, but passionate. That goes a long way with me!)

 

[AltSptHst]

On Thomas...I don't know. It's always good to stockpile at high risk positions, like running back, perhaps they still take him with their first round pick in the 1970 draft. Walt Garrison and Dan Reeves weren't getting any younger, so I think they still take him.

Now, on to Super Bowl V.

If a healthy Calvin Hill plays that game, I think the Cowboys win with a three-headed monster on the run: Garrison, Hill and Thomas and that could create a HUGE butterfly:

Craig Morton probably doesn't throw as often as he did in OTL SBV, so that reduces the chances of him throwing any one of those three picks.

That's not to say he doesn't get picked at all, but I think, with the ground game eating the field out from under the Colts with a steady cycle of fresh legs coming out of the backfield, it opens up the passing game and Morton might have a big day passing too; perhaps not so much in the number of passes thrown or total yardage, but in completion percentage and quality (and timing) of those passes.

If he has a big game and the Cowboys win, Morton becomes the guy not only did what Don Meredith couldn't do (Get them to a Super Bowl) but now he also becomes the guy who got them to their first Super Bowl and also won and looked good doing it.

The 800 lb. gorilla in the room now becomes: Morton has just become the face of the franchise and Staubach may very well be done, at least in Dallas.

1971 draft...Dallas picks 26th instead of 25th and I'm not sure that makes much difference in picks, UNLESS, they trade up in the draft and use Staubach to do it.

Now, obviously, if they're giving up Staubach, I'm favoring Staubach to factor in to some sort of package for LA for the Rams two first round picks (specifically, the SAME two players the Rams took with those two picks; LB Isiah Robertson at 10th and DE Jack Youngblood at 20th); perhaps the Cowboys find a taker among the first three picks that year: the Pats, Saints or Oilers, to give them one of the first three picks in the draft, plus some more picks (2nd and 3rd rounders either in the '71 or '72 drafts) or something to that effect, but there's probably plenty of other deals they could come up with with all sorts of teams.

Personally, I like Staubach as the Cowboys QB of Legend, but if Morton has that kind of offensive machine to work with to keep the passing game open, and can stay healthy, the team is his after they win Super Bowl V and repeat in Super Bowl VI.

That's kinda why I favor a combo of PODs when I ponder my 'Dallasty':

1. Staubach graduated by the USNA but the USN declines to commission him and grants him a discharge in June of '64, allowing him to sign with Dallas out of college.
2. Calvin Hill stays healthy.
3. Craig Morton still taken at #5 in 1965 and then traded for picks after Staubach wins the starting job (possibly taking it from Meredith by '66 or '67) that help the Cowboys build up BIG for a dominant run through the late 60's to the late 70's.

But I'm a Cowboys fan...even if I DO hate Jerry Jones, feel Jason Garrett coaches with the passion of a wet sponge and would rather they trade Tony Bromo to KC or Phoenix for picks, swipe Alex Smith AND Tim Tebow from the Hells those two are stuck in, and make Rob Ryan their head coach. (He's crazy, but passionate. That goes a long way with me!)

I thought we talked about Morton being traded. In that scenario I presented, that is how they get G Doug Wilkerson to get more O-line help.

If Morton wins that Super Bowl, though, and they make that trade with the Rams, I wonder what the Rams do with Gabriel? Maybe they trade him to the Redskins or something.

 

[Custard Cream Monster]

Someone mentioned an Armstrong, here's one about a more famous one ...

What if Lance Armstrong were to have been busted in 2004 or 2005?

 

[Sigma7]

I thought we talked about Morton being traded. In that scenario I presented, that is how they get G Doug Wilkerson to get more O-line help.

If Morton wins that Super Bowl, though, and they make that trade with the Rams, I wonder what the Rams do with Gabriel? Maybe they trade him to the Redskins or something.

Separate scenario from Calvin Hill staying healthy.

OR, say we go with the 'Morton traded' scenario AND 'Calvin Hill stays healthy'.

I think the result remains the same (as outlined above with Morton and an uninjured Calvin Hill) for Super Bowls V and VI.

Beyond that...hard to say.

If Hill's still running strong in '75, along with the increased protection on the O-line, it may very well tip Super Bowl X towards the Cowboys.

If Hill's still running strong into the mid 70's, do the Cowboys still trade for the #2 pick in the '77 Draft to take Dorsette?

If the Cowboys don't trade for the #2 pick, I have to figure the Seahawks take the Heisman winner that just dropped in their laps when the Bucs take Ricky Bell.

Or would the Seahawks have simply found someone else to trade the pick to, possibly for a better price than a late first rounder and three second rounders?

 

[AltSptHst]

Separate scenario from Calvin Hill staying healthy.

OR, say we go with the 'Morton traded' scenario AND 'Calvin Hill stays healthy'.

I think the result remains the same (as outlined above with Morton and an uninjured Calvin Hill) for Super Bowls V and VI.

Beyond that...hard to say.

If Hill's still running strong in '75, along with the increased protection on the O-line, it may very well tip Super Bowl X towards the Cowboys.

If Hill's still running strong into the mid 70's, do the Cowboys still trade for the #2 pick in the '77 Draft to take Dorsette?

If the Cowboys don't trade for the #2 pick, I have to figure the Seahawks take the Heisman winner that just dropped in their laps when the Bucs take Ricky Bell.

Or would the Seahawks have simply found someone else to trade the pick to, possibly for a better price than a late first rounder and three second rounders?

Yeah, someone else would have acquired Dorsett. Maybe the Jets trade their first rounder (4th overall) and a second rounder to the Hawks for Dorsett.

Imagine Dorsett in that offense with Wesley Walker, Jerome Barkum, Lam Jones, and Mickey Shuler. Pretty scary!

Then, in 81, they either draft Ken Easley, Dennis Smith, or Hanford Dixon (depending on where they are drafting) to shore up their secondary.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I like these...

(I do have to wonder how you persuade him to drive for a non-British team, tho...)

Which means Prost becomes World Champion.


I'd add:

• Gilles avoids hitting the back of Mass' March at Zolder & so isn't killed (or, at least, isn't killed), & goes on to be World Champ
• Gilles quits Ferrari (for Williams?) in '81 & avoids the Zolder accident completely
• The March 2-4-0 actually races.

Lauda would have still remained Champion due to Martin Brundle winning his first race at the alternate 1984 Detriot Grand Prix, while Moss did race for Maserati for a few seasons along with Mercedes-Benz in 1955.

I agree with you on Gilles Villeneuve, would have been interesting to see how he would have fared had he not died at Zolder as well as on the March 2-4-0 actually competing in F1 for a season or two.

 

[phx1138]

Lauda would have still remained Champion due to Martin Brundle winning his first race at the alternate 1984 Detriot Grand Prix

I've always understood a Prost second at Monaco that year, on full points (for 2/3 distance), would have given him enough to win the title. Are you presuming Senna wins before that, & it gets called anyhow?

Moss did race for Maserati for a few seasons along with Mercedes-Benz in 1955.

Recall is playing tricks again. I thought he'd refused to drive for any non-Brit team. Was that Graham Hill, then?

I'd also like to see rotaries & 4wd allowed. And wings banned entirely after '69. (Slow the cars down with smaller displacement & higher weight & narrower rubber.)

 

[Masked Grizzly]

I've always understood a Prost second at Monaco that year, on full points (for 2/3 distance), would have given him enough to win the title. Are you presuming Senna wins before that, & it gets called anyhow?

Recall is playing tricks again. I thought he'd refused to drive for any non-Brit team. Was that Graham Hill, then?

I'd also like to see rotaries & 4wd allowed. And wings banned entirely after '69. (Slow the cars down with smaller displacement & higher weight & narrower rubber.)

Senna's win at Monaco, together with Martin Brundle's win at Detriot and his Tyrrell team being more competitive (due to not being disqualified and completing the remaining 3 races) with Stefan Bellof finishing second in Monaco (in front of Prost but behind Senna) instead of 3rd prior to being disqualifed in OTL, would mean that Prost misses out on the title by 2 points.

Rotaries would be interesting though thinking about the Cosworth F1 4WD, I am not sure how 4WD would have been beneficial in Formula One.

 

[phx1138]

Senna's win at Monaco, together with Martin Brundle's win at Detriot and his Tyrrell team being more competitive (due to not being disqualified and completing the remaining 3 races) with Stefan Bellof finishing second in Monaco (in front of Prost but behind Senna) instead of 3rd prior to being disqualifed in OTL, would mean that Prost misses out on the title by 2 points.

Gotcha.

I am not sure how 4WD would have been beneficial in Formula One.

Not sure it is, either. I just think it would be cool to allow it.

 

[AltSptHst]

Bill Walsh

Here's a what-if for you:
A slightly different 1979 draft class for the Chicago Bears in their first four picks:
1a (4). Dan Hampton, DE
1b (9). Kellen Winslow, TE
2 (39). Mark Gastineau, DE
3 (66). Joe Montana, QB

Historically, it was Hampton and Al Harris in the first, wide receiver Rickey Watts in the 2nd round, and running back Willie McClendon in the 3rd.

How does this change NFL history?

Here's another Bear What if:

What if George Halas wouldn't have stopped Jim Finks from trying to hire Bill Walsh around 1978? Finks wanted Walsh, but Halas wasn't interested.

 

[athleticsfan2kx]

What If Tony Gwynn led the Padres from the winning 1984 and 1998 World Series?

 

[fb111a]

Here's another Bear What if:

What if George Halas wouldn't have stopped Jim Finks from trying to hire Bill Walsh around 1978? Finks wanted Walsh, but Halas wasn't interested.

Walsh puts together the Montana-Payton combo in `79. That 1-2 punch is frightening good. Payton starts averaging 60 receptions a season. But that alone doesn't turn the Bears around

Real question: Does Walsh in Chicago butterfly away Buddy Ryan and the "46" defense that the Chicago Bears used through the `80s.

Montana-Payton on offense plus the "46" would make the Bears unstoppable - up to and including winning Super Bowls XIX, XX, XXI, XXII, and XXIII. Take one or the other away, and there's fewer rings.

 

[AltSptHst]

Walsh puts together the Montana-Payton combo in `79. That 1-2 punch is frightening good. Payton starts averaging 60 receptions a season. But that alone doesn't turn the Bears around

Real question: Does Walsh in Chicago butterfly away Buddy Ryan and the "46" defense that the Chicago Bears used through the `80s.

Montana-Payton on offense plus the "46" would make the Bears unstoppable - up to and including winning Super Bowls XIX, XX, XXI, XXII, and XXIII. Take one or the other away, and there's fewer rings.

Ryan was brought in by Halas in 1978, the same year that Walsh could have been hired. If Walsh would have accepted Ryan on his staff, those two could have been devastating together.

 

[Sigma7]

Troy Aikman doesn't break his ankle during the Oct. 19, 1985 game with Miami.

No broken ankle, one butterfly is the loss of the starting QB gig and transfer to UCLA...which means he's heading for the '88 draft, rather than the '89 draft.

Where does he fall and who gets him?

 

[AltSptHst]

Troy Aikman doesn't break his ankle during the Oct. 19, 1985 game with Miami.

No broken ankle, one butterfly is the loss of the starting QB gig and transfer to UCLA...which means he's heading for the '88 draft, rather than the '89 draft.

Where does he fall and who gets him?

Good question. However, how much does OU's system hold him back? If it does somewhat, maybe he isn't #1 overall, but he falls to around the 10-26 range, where a team like the Chargers (Fouts just retired, and they traded for Epic Fail from the Steelers), Patriots (Eason wasn't exactly setting the world on fire), or Steelers (they did have Bubby waiting in the wings, but he wasn't a sure thing) could have grabbed him up.

Here is another QB question, though:

What if Jeff George would have manned up and went down to the U to compete for the starting job around 1987 instead of going to Illinois because they handed it to him on a silver platter?

If he did, maybe some time away from mommy and under Jimmy Johnson would have helped him grow up, and he would have been a better QB in the NFL.

Then, he comes out in 89, and he is taken #1 overall by Jimmy Johnson and the Cowboys instead of Aikman.

And it gets better, Sigma: With George, Jimmy would have known more about what he had, and Walsh isn't available to take with the Supp pick. So, the Boys have a 1990 first rounder in the top-5 (along with their other first-rounder from the Walker deal which still probably happens), and they can add an impact defensive player like Tez or Junior.

 

[Sigma7]

Good question. However, how much does OU's system hold him back? If it does somewhat, maybe he isn't #1 overall, but he falls to around the 10-26 range, where a team like the Chargers (Fouts just retired, and they traded for Epic Fail from the Steelers), Patriots (Eason wasn't exactly setting the world on fire), or Steelers (they did have Bubby waiting in the wings, but he wasn't a sure thing) could have grabbed him up.

Cowboys are picking at 11 though, they could trade up (Herschel Walker Trade sooner and to a different team) because White's gone and Pelleur is clearly not the answer.

Irony her could be trading up to get Aikman, but then missing out on one of his favorite targets (Michael Irvin) in the process...unless they pull off the Herschel Walker trade and get to keep the 11 pick as well.

Even better Aikman what if: He goes to Oklahoma State instead of Oklahoma.

Yep.

Aikman and Barry Sanders on the same team.

THAT would be something to see.

Here is another QB question, though:

What if Jeff George would have manned up and went down to the U to compete for the starting job around 1987 instead of going to Illinois because they handed it to him on a silver platter?

If he did, maybe some time away from mommy and under Jimmy Johnson would have helped him grow up, and he would have been a better QB in the NFL.

Then, he comes out in 89, and he is taken #1 overall by Jimmy Johnson and the Cowboys instead of Aikman.

And it gets better, Sigma: With George, Jimmy would have known more about what he had, and Walsh isn't available to take with the Supp pick. So, the Boys have a 1990 first rounder in the top-5 (along with their other first-rounder from the Walker deal which still probably happens), and they can add an impact defensive player like Tez or Junior.

Lessee....

1st round '88: Michael Irvin
1st round '89: Jeff George
1st round '90: Tez AND Emmit.
1st round '91: Eric Turner, Alvin Harper and still take Pritchett and deal him to Detroit for the picks that secure Dixon Edwards and pieces that never panned out OR take someone else?

Could be interesting...and a cap buster.

But they'd certainly look good doing it!

Until Jimmy leaves.

Then Jerry manages to alienate George, Irvin still ends up messed up on coke, Barry 'I see NUTHINK!' Switzer maybe wins another Super Bowl but the team blows apart just like OTL in the late 90's.

In theory, I could see them POSSIBLY Three-peating in '91, '92 and '93 under Johnson with Tez and Turner in the defense.

Nice one.

 

[AltSptHst]

Aikman

Cowboys are picking at 11 though, they could trade up (Herschel Walker Trade sooner and to a different team) because White's gone and Pelleur is clearly not the answer.

Irony her could be trading up to get Aikman, but then missing out on one of his favorite targets (Michael Irvin) in the process...unless they pull off the Herschel Walker trade and get to keep the 11 pick as well.

Even better Aikman what if: He goes to Oklahoma State instead of Oklahoma.

Yep.

Aikman and Barry Sanders on the same team.

THAT would be something to see.



Lessee....

1st round '88: Michael Irvin
1st round '89: Jeff George
1st round '90: Tez AND Emmit.
1st round '91: Eric Turner, Alvin Harper and still take Pritchett and deal him to Detroit for the picks that secure Dixon Edwards and pieces that never panned out OR take someone else?

Could be interesting...and a cap buster.

But they'd certainly look good doing it!

Until Jimmy leaves.

Then Jerry manages to alienate George, Irvin still ends up messed up on coke, Barry 'I see NUTHINK!' Switzer maybe wins another Super Bowl but the team blows apart just like OTL in the late 90's.

In theory, I could see them POSSIBLY Three-peating in '91, '92 and '93 under Johnson with Tez and Turner in the defense.

Nice one.

Yeah, I heard that Aikman almost went to Stillwater. If he did, maybe he leads the Cowboys to the National Title game by 87, but they lose to the Canes in the Orange Bowl.

With a good year, though, Troy comes out after his junior year, and is the #1 overall pick by the Chiefs, who swap picks with Atlanta (they took Chris Miller in the first round the year before).

Aikman sits a bit behind DeBerg his first year, but by 89, he takes over the job outright, and eventually leads KC to a Super Bowl by 92 or 93.

With Aikman in KC, where does Montana go in 93, though? Arizona?

 

[mello man 59]

Len Bias lives!

We know that Len Bias from the University of Maryland was drafted second in the 1986 NBA Draft by the Boston Celtics. He died at the age of 22 only two days later of cocaine intoxication.
WHAT IF Bias lived? Coming off a world championship just weeks before, the Celtics would have continued their dominance over the Lakers and the rest of the NBA.
Without Bias, they managed to get back to the Finals anyway ... but lost to the Lakers. The Detroit Pistons were the kings of the Eastern Conference in 1989 and won championships in 1990 and 1991.
If Bias lived, the Celtics would have continued their dominance over the NBA.

 

[Aztinca]

Just adding some baseball, don't mind me.

1985: The Kansas City Royals fail to keep up the pressure on the St Louis Cardinals and their pitchers in Game 7, losing 9-10 in the 12th (extra) inning.


1990: Defending World Series holder and the favored team, the Oakland Athletics manage to cage "The Nasty Boys" in Game 7 in the World Series. The Reds claimed games 1,2,3 until the A's inched ahead in games 4,5,6, and 7 and becoming the first team to make such a comeback (0-3 deficit). The "Amazing A's" would continue with their winning ways until being swept in the ALCS by the Minnisota Twins (1991 Baseball Season).


2012: The San Fransisco Giants defeat the Detroit Tigers in Game 7 to lay claim to the World Series. Game 1 saw Starting Pitcher Just Verlander shutout the Giants in 9 innings for a 3-0 win for the Tigers. Games 2 (2-0) and 3 (2-0) were claimed by the Giants, until the Tigers clinched Game 4 (4-3). Game 5 (13-9) went into extra innings, the Giants defeating the Tigers in the 15th inning [with a two men on base HR from Buster Posey], and marking the new longest WS game, the last being the 2005 World Series with Game 3 (14 innings). The Tigers denied the Giants victory in Game 6 (7-4) but failed to keep the momentum in Game 7 [Giants Win] (9-8).

 

[High Plains Drifter]

We know that Len Bias from the University of Maryland was drafted second in the 1986 NBA Draft by the Boston Celtics. He died at the age of 22 only two days later of cocaine intoxication.
WHAT IF Bias lived? Coming off a world championship just weeks before, the Celtics would have continued their dominance over the Lakers and the rest of the NBA.
Without Bias, they managed to get back to the Finals anyway ... but lost to the Lakers. The Detroit Pistons were the kings of the Eastern Conference in 1989 and won championships in 1990 and 1991.
If Bias lived, the Celtics would have continued their dominance over the NBA.

By the 86-87 season, the Celtics front court wasn't old, but it wasn't young either. Bird was 30, McHale was 29, and Robert Parish was 33. Each played a lot of minutes per games that season: Bird 40.6, McHale 39.7, and Parrish 37.4. There are minutes to spread around to a rookie Bias, probably to get him into the low 20s per game. Anymore than that and the veterans are going to start bitching big time. Reasonable to suggest the Celtics have an excellent shot at winning the Championship. But no guarantee, the Pistons took them to 7 games in the Eastern Conference Finals, and that only happened because of the miracle steal by Bird at the end of game #5. And the Lakers weren't exactly slouches.

What do the Celtics do in 87-88. Will Bias stay as the super sub? Will one of the veterans give up even more minutes to Bias? Will the veterans bitch to managment/media about reduced playing time? Can the Celtics afford to pay everyone? Does management trade McHale or Parrish to free up room for Bias to be a starter? Parrish is the oldest. McHale would bring more value back in trade. But trading Parrish forces McHale to become the fulltime center, how does that impact his play? Regardless of who gets traded, the other two front court veterans aren't getting any younger. And neither is 33 year old point guard Dennis Johnson.

Does Larry Bird's back still go in the 88-89 season? IOTL he only played 6 games that year. The man played a lot of minutes per game in his career up till that point.

Ainge left after the 88-89 season. Dennis Johnson after the 89-90 season. Is Reggie Lewis being available in the 87 draft for the Celtics butterflied away? If they get Lewis, does he still tragically die in the summer of 93, or does that get butterflied sooner or later? Are Brian Shaw and Dee Brown still the not too exciting replacements for Dennis Johnson at point guard?

Having a live Bias who played up to his apparent potential (Hall of Famer, Top 50 ever) would only be a postive result toward the Celtic's chances of winning. But there are a lot of roster possibilities to take into consideration about a Bias-ed Celtics team. And the Lakers, Pistons, Bulls, Cavaliers, Jazz, and Trail Blazers were all high, high quality teams at points during an ATL Bias-ed Celtics. A slam dunk multiple repeat championship team is far from an automatic.