Sports What Ifs.

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Dave, Nov 7, 2006.

  1. mello man 59 Active Member

    Dec 13, 2012
    How about this format: The number one seeds in both conferences play the number two seeds with the winners getting byes in the second week. The winners would then host their conference championship games.

    Then the NFL playoffs starting tomorrow would be:

    AFC: New England at Denver (winner gets bye week on Jan. 12-13).
    Cincinnati at Houston
    Indianapolis at Baltimore

    Bengals/Texans winner plays Colts/Ravens winner on Jan. 12-13.

    Winner plays at Patriots/Broncos winner on January 20.

    NFC: San Francisco at Atlanta (winner gets bye week on Jan. 12-13.
    Minnesota at Green Bay
    Seattle at Washington

    Vikings/Packers winner plays Seahawks/Redskins winner on Jan. 12-13.
    Winner plays at 49ers/Falcons winner on January 20.

    On February 3, the AFC Champions will play the NFC Champions in the Super Bowl in New Orleans.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  2. The Dude Bro Well-Known Member

    Aug 28, 2011
    Under this system this year's playoffs would be:


    Pittsburgh Steelers @ New England Patriots

    Cincinnati Bengals @ Baltimore Ravens

    Indianapolis Colts @ Houston Texans

    San Diego Chargers (or Dallas Cowboys) @ Denver Broncos

    The AFC is interesting because two second place teams finish with sub-.500 records - the Miami Dolphins and San Diego Chargers. However, only one team qualifies to cross over - the Pittsburgh Steelers, with their 8-8 record. In this case, the San Diego Chargers win out due to having a better conference record (4-2 to 2-4) and Miami is disqualified.

    However, to throw a wrench in this system, the Dallas Cowboys finished with an 8-8 record, which would qualify them for the playoffs under the "crossing over" rules. But, they are in the NFC, so this depends on whether the NFL would allow teams to cross conferences in addition to divisions.


    New York Giants @ Washington Redskins

    Minnesota Vikings @ Green Bay Packers

    Chicago Bears @ Atlanta Falcons

    Seattle Seahawks @ San Francisco 49ers

    Chicago Bears cross over to play the NFC South Atlanta Falcons due to second place Carolina finishing 7-9 (the Chicago Bears are 10-6).

    I'm going to develop this further and look into posting a season-by-season playoff list sometime soon.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2013
  3. The Dude Bro Well-Known Member

    Aug 28, 2011
    Also, would anyone be opposed to either stickying a sports what ifs thread at the top to go with the pop culture thread, or splitting the thread according to sport (such as football what ifs, soccer what ifs, etc. etc.)
  4. AltSptHst Well-Known Member

    Jan 22, 2009
    Maybe we should save the 5 most recent pages of this thread, delete the rest, and then make this a sticky thread at the top.
  5. AltSptHst Well-Known Member

    Jan 22, 2009
    Do you think that Gannon and Tim Brown would have actually retired in that scenario? I am not sure about that. I could also see Gruden coming back again, and those three going for a repeat that they would have gotten.

    After that, I maybe could see each of them retiring (or leaving in Gruden's case)

    If Jon leaves one year later, though, where does he go?
  6. fb111a Well-Known Member

    Nov 10, 2007
    A baseball what-if:

    Two trades in the 1979 offseason:

    Milwaukee sends OF Larry Hisle to Atlanta for RP Steve Bedrosian and C/OF/1B Dale Murphy

    Milwaukee trades 3B Sal Bando to Oakland for OF Rickey Henderson
  7. AltSptHst Well-Known Member

    Jan 22, 2009
    If they make those trades, and if they still get C Ted Simmons and closer Rollie Fingers a few years later, I see them winning two straight World Series titles in 1981 and 82.

    However, what happens next depends on how they keep that team together. Also, the AL East was tough, with the 83 Orioles, 84 Tigers, the Yankees, the upstart Blue Jays, and the 86 Sox.
  8. High Plains Drifter Well-Known Member

    Apr 20, 2011
    Washington DC Metropolitan Area
    - Rickey Henderson becomes the everyday leftfielder.
    - Dale Murphy splits catching duties with Charlie Moore. He occasionally DHs and plays 1B.
    - Ben Oglivie shifted from left to primary DH.
    - Jim Ganter becomes the everyday Thirdbaseman.
    - Steve Bedrosian spends year in minors as starting pitcher.
    - The Brewers finish in 3rd place in the AL East with a 94-68 record (8 more wins than IOTL).

    - Brewers do NOT make IOTL trade with Cardinals for Ted Simmons, Rollie Fingers, and Pete Vuckovich.
    - Dale Murphy becomes the primary catcher getting 80 starts, with occasional DHing.
    - Opposite of OTL, Ganter stays at 3B and Molitor stays at 2B.
    - Steve Bedrosian gets his first taste of the majors in September working out of the bullpen.
    - Strike shortened season with extra round of playoffs still occurs.
    - Brewers win both half seasons of the AL East and face the Baltimore Orioles in the first round of the playoffs. The O's win in 5 games.

    - Steve Bedrosian takes the long reliever/part time starter role which Bob McClure had IOTL 1982.
    - Brewers win the World Series defeating the Cardinals in 6 games.

    - Steve Bedrosian is full time starter for the entire season.
    - With a 94-68 record, the Brewers finish in 2nd place in the AL East to the Orioles.

    - Brewers do NOT make IOTL trade with Rangers for Jim Sundberg.
    - Dale Murphy injures his knee and misses half the season.
    - Brewers finish in 6th place with a 75-87 record.

    - By the end of the season Dale Murphy has taken the everyday right fielder position from Sixto Lezcvano.
    - Robin Yount plays his first season as the everyday centerfielder.
    - Ernest Riles is now the shortstop.
    - Bill Schroeder is now the regular catcher.
    - Bedrosian heads a rotation that includes Danny Darwin, Teddy Higuera, and Moose Haas.
    - Rickey Henderson wins the MVP.
    - Dale Murphy wins comeback player of the year with a .275 batting average and 30 home runs.
    - Brewers finish in 4th place with a 81-81 record.

    - Rickey Henderson signs with the New York Yankees as a Free Agent.
    - Brewers acquire Rob Deer from the SF Giants and he becomes the regular left fielder.
    - Bedrosian is traded to the Phillies for Pete Smith and Ozzie Virgil. Virgil replaces Schroeder as the regular catcher.
    - Brewers finish in 6th place with an 80-82 record.

    - Brewers trade Dale Murphy to the Chicago Cubs for Rafael Palmiero.
    - Cecil Cooper replaces the retiring Ben Oglivie as the regular DH.
    - Palmiero becomes the everyday firstbaseman.
    - Glen Braggs replaces Dale Murphy as the rightfielder.
    - Brewers finish in 3rd place with a 91-71 record. Thus ends the first season without any of the ATL players on the Brewers roster.
  9. fb111a Well-Known Member

    Nov 10, 2007
    Don't see it happening. The Brewers don't have that big a need for Simmons. Bedrosian would obviate the need for Fingers, and as a closer, probably dominates from 1981-1989. From 1986-1989, he and Dan Plesac shut down opponents of the Brewers after the 7th inning.

    Murphy also solves the question of "who bats fourth?" - Molitor (2B), Yount (SS), Cooper (1B), Murphy (RF), Oglivie (LF) (figure his playing time increases with Hisle gone - in @, he emerged due to Hisle's injury, in this case, he emerges due to the trade), Thomas (DH), and Money (3B) becomes potent from 1-7. Henderson is in center, and bats ninth. So, at catcher, the Brewer may stick with Charlie Moore at catcher.

    Note - in the 1979 offseason, the Brewers trade IF Lenn Sakata to the Orioles for RHP John Flinn. Now, imagine, with their lineup settled, that trade gets bigger: IF Lenn Sakata, OF/1B David Green, and OF Sixto Lezcano (who is shunted aside due to a surplus of outfielders) to the Orioles for Flinn and SS/3B Cal Ripken.
  10. The Dude Bro Well-Known Member

    Aug 28, 2011
    Here's a question that might have been discussed already, but what if the CFL kept by it's originally plan for "CFL USA", focusing on cities near the border ignored by the NFL instead of cities in the Deep South of the United States?

    The cities originally planned for expansion were:

    - Columbus, Ohio

    - Rochester, New York

    - Hartford, Connecticut

    - Milwaukee, Wisconsin

    - Boise, Idaho

    - Portland, Oregon

    With the ultimate plan for 10 Canadian and 10 American teams. As there were nine teams at the time, I guess the 10th team for Canada is the long-though about Halifax/Atlantic Schooners.
  11. High Plains Drifter Well-Known Member

    Apr 20, 2011
    Washington DC Metropolitan Area
    How does Bedrosian miraculously become the closer. He never relieved in the minors. The Brewers needed quality starters more than they needed a reliever.

    How does Murphy get to RF? By shifting Oglivie to DH you can squeeze in Henderson. They have Gorman Thomas and Lezcano playing very good defense in the other two OF spots with excellent bats. Murphy has never played the OF before. He has caught, and catcher is the weakest position on the Brewers (see OTL Simmons trade). Murphy is going to be the catcher. Also, as a catcher now playing in a pitchers park, instead of Atlanta, his offensive numbers are going to drop significantly. Some Allstar appearances in his future, but no MVPs.

    The biggest problem the Brewers had in this era was crappy pitching, not the offense.
  12. fb111a Well-Known Member

    Nov 10, 2007
    The Brewers made some free-agent moves for their pitching staff in 1979: Signing Jim Slaton and Reggie Cleveland.

    Here is the Opening Day lineup in 1979:
    2B Molitor
    SS Yount
    1B Cooper
    C Murphy
    DH Oglivie
    CF Thomas
    3B Money
    RF Moore
    LF Henderson

    SP Mike Caldwell

    Catcher is interesting. Current Brewers catchers (prior to 1979) are Charlie Moore and Buck Martinez. Moore hit around .270, but with little power. Martinez is more of a liability at bat. Murphy has power, and has split time at catcher and first base. Cooper emerges as an everyday player, though, so Murphy starts out at catcher, but it is soon obvious that while he is a good power hitter, he is a liabilty defensively, so the Brewers stick him in left field, and go with an Oglive/Lezcano platoon in right, with Henderson holding down center field.

    Their pitching looks strong on paper going into 1979: The Brewers' 1979 rotation as planned is headlined by Mike Caldwell (22-9, 2.36 ERA in 1978) and Lary Sorenson (18-12, 3.21 ERA) with Jim Slaton returning as a free agent and Bill Travers taking the next two slots, with Moose Haas as the 5th starter, unless the Crew decides to stick with Jerry Augustine (13-12, 4.54 in 1978). So their rotation is going to be in good shape entering that season.

    The bullpen may be a bigger question, since Bill Castro (5-4, 1.81 ERA, 8 saves) leads the bullpen. Castro may be underrated as a closer - note the 1.81 ERA. Bob McClure's also not shabby, either (4-7, 3.10 ERA, 15 saves combined in 1977-1978). Augustine and Andy Repogle could fill bullpen slots. The Brewers also have free-agent acquisition Cleveland (5-8, 3.08 ERA, 12 saves in 1978). So their `pen doesn't have big names, but Cleveland, Castro, and McClure look to be serviceable, with Augustine and Repogle as inning-eaters.

    The 1979 bullpen is still catch-as-catch-can, but by the end of 1979, the Brewers have a few spare parts they could conceivably dangle for pitching. Murphy will have probably shown by the end of 1979 that he is an answer in the outfield. Oglivie will also have earned a spot as well - probably full-time (as he did in @ 1979). In 1979, Charlie Moore emerges as a solid contact hitter (.300 batting average). So catcher is less of a concern than it was at the start of the season.

    The Brewers will be looking to unload Sixto Lezcano and Dick Davis at the very least - maybe Jim Gantner as well. They also start to view OF/1B David Green, their top prospect, as likely trade bait instead, and begin to start looking for a third baseman of the future to replace Money, who is 32.
  13. AltSptHst Well-Known Member

    Jan 22, 2009
    With that many teams, maybe the CFL would have become sort-of a minor league for the NFL in that they would be getting more players from that league than they were before with 20 teams instead of what they have today. The Cameron Wakes and Philip Hunts would be a little more common.

    Also, Dude, I will bring up an idea that you posed earlier on this page. I think that this "Sports What-ifs" thread should be stickied at the top like the pop culture thread. Either propose "what ifs" or have links to timelines. And, I think that all the pages of this thread should be deleted except for the first page and the last 5 pages.
  14. The Dude Bro Well-Known Member

    Aug 28, 2011
    I would propose starting a new one entirely, if we're deleting pages, since a pinned topic would bring more fresh eyes onto these what ifs, and if they are proposed again we could have new, more exciting discussions with more members. I feel sports what ifs could become bigger, especially with people like me who are getting bored/feeling a little dirty talking about all those war alt hists.

    As for the CFL: I'm not really sure if the league would be okay functioning as a minor league. Since the 80s, the league has had a bit of an inferiority complex when it comes to the NFL, a lot of it being the NFL having a much larger advantage when it comes to television exposure. I could see the NFL proposing such a plan, and the CFL promptly rejecting it. This could result in a legal battle that ends with the CFL agreeing perhaps to limit their American franchises to the six locations already mentioned.

    I think the CFL would still want 20 franchises, though, since it's a nice, even number and I feel the league could support it, American franchises or not. In this case, I see Quebec City, London, and Windsor recieving new franchises, and the Alouettes being started up again in Montreal relatively quickly. These are large cities, and I feel that they wouldn't significantly cut into other fanbases/media markets enough to cause a stir among the existing CFL teams.

    So now we have six American and eleven Canadian franchises. This is where it gets a bit trickier. The next two cities that seem most interested in a franchise are Moncton and Saskatoon, but, in both cases this would be causing problems for what are in this timeline established teams. Moncton and Halifax are the two largest cities in Atlantic Canada, and both seem to be insistent that they, and only they, be the ones to recieve the long-discussed Schooners franchise. If Halifax has recieved it already (and at the time they were more likely to) then Moncton might be a dead letter. The problem with Saskatoon is that it's basically slicing the already small Saskatchewan Roughriders market in half. Saskatoon is also twice as large as Regina, where the Roughriders are located, so it might even be a larger loss than simply half.

    At this point, the best choices for expansion might be again in the United States. Anchorage, Alaska, and Fargo, North Dakota are good, out of the way places, and I doubt the NFL would care to see those markets go when it's base is obviously the continental United States and usually not right on the border. This brings us up to 19. For a 20th team, perhaps a second one in the Toronto area? Waterloo could probably support a team, unless they decide to double up in Atlantic Canada.

    So by 2000 the CFL looks like this:

    Eastern Conference:

    Northern Division:

    Halifax Schooners

    Montreal Alouettes

    Ottawa Renegades (*)

    Quebec City, Quebec (Rebelles?)

    Toronto Argonauts

    Southern Division:

    Columbus, Ohio (Tigers?)

    Hamilton Tiger-Cats

    Hartford, Connecticut (Colonials?)

    Rochester, New York (???)

    Windsor, Ontario (????)

    Western Conference:

    Eastern Division:

    Edmonton Eskimos'

    Fargo, North Dakota (Liberty?)

    Milwaukee, Wisconsin (Maurauders?)

    Winnipeg Blue Bombers

    Saskatchewan Roughriders

    Western Division:

    Anchorage, Alaska (???)

    BC Lions

    Boise, Idaho (???)

    Calgary Stampeders

    Portland, Oregon (Breakers?)

    The Ottawa Rough Riders are probably still going to fold, but if "CFL USA" is more successful there will be more money to start the franchise up sooner. I gave them the name of the franchise that did replace the Ottawa Rough Riders in this world.

    Names in parenthesis are my guesses at team names, mostly based on previous team that existed at that location.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2013
  15. High Plains Drifter Well-Known Member

    Apr 20, 2011
    Washington DC Metropolitan Area
    Here is the OTL Brewer's 1978 lineup which finished 3rd in the AL East with a 93-69 record:

    C - Martinez (age 29), 256 AB, .219 ave, .255 obp, .277 slg
    C - Moore (age 25), 268 AB, .269 ave, .300 obp, .358 slg
    1B - Cooper (age 28), 407 AB, .312 ave, .359 obp, .474 slg
    2B - Molitor (age 21), 521 AB, .274 ave, .301 obp, .372 slg
    3B - Bando (traded per POD prior to 79 season)
    SS - Yount (age 22), 502 AB, .293 ave, .323 obp, .428 slg
    LF - Hisle (traded per POD prior to 79 season)
    CF - Gorman (age 27), 452 AB, .246 ave, .351 obp, .515 slg
    RF - Lezcano (age 24), 442 AB, .292 ave, .377 obp, .459 slg
    DH - Davis (age 24), 218 AB, .248, .273 obp, .372 slg
    LF/RF/1B/DH - Oglivie (age 29), 469 AB, .303 ave, .370 obp, .497 slg
    1B/2B/3B/DH - Money (age 31), 518 AB, .293 ave, .361 obp, .440 slg
    UI - Gantner (age 25), 97 AB, .216 ave, .269 obp, .258 slg

    Here are Murphy and Henderson's 1978 stats:

    Henderson (age 19) OF in AA, 455 AB, .310 ave, .417 obp, .358 slg, 81 SB

    Murphy (age 22) 1B/C in ATL, 530 AB, .226 ave, .284 obp, .394 slg

    A 20 year old Henderson is NOT starting 1979 in the majors. IOTL he didn't make his debut till June 24, and the A's had a lot weaker outfield than Lezcano, Thomas, and Oglivie.

    Murphy is NOT the starting catcher or rightfielder in 1979. His catching is weak and he hits worse (though with more power and more potential) than Moore. He's never played the OF and the Brewer's have Lezcano in RF who hits for average with power and threw out 18 base runners in 78.

    The regular starting 9 in the first half of the 1979 season are:
    C – Moore
    1B – Cooper
    2B – Molitor
    3B – Money
    SS – Yount
    LF – Oglivie
    CF – Thomas
    RF – Lezcano
    DH – Davis/Murphy

    Murphy will catch at least twice a week to spell Moore. He will spot start for Cooper against tough lefties or when Cooper is given a day off/plays DH. If Murphy hits well enough, he will push out Davis at DH and he might gain an extra start a week at catcher. IOTL in 1979 Murphy only hit .257 ave, .305 obp, .421 slg away from the friendly confines of Atlanta. And Milwaukee is a big time pitcher’s park, so it is VERY difficult to see him hitting so amazing he can force one of the other starters out of a regular job. (Historically IOTL Murphy hit .281 ave, .368 obp, .499 slg at home; but only .250 ave, .324 obp, .440 slg away. Any career playing for the Brewers is going to result in much lower overall career numbers for Murphy.)

    The second half of the 1979 season will see the introduction of Rickey Henderson as the everyday left fielder. IOTL in 71 at AAA in 1979 he hit .309 ave, 430 obp, 448 slg. There is no keeping him down he is that good.

    The regular starting 9 in the second half of the 1979 season are:
    C – Moore
    1B – Cooper
    2B – Molitor
    3B – Money
    SS – Yount
    LF – Henderson
    CF – Thomas
    RF – Lezcano
    DH – Oglivie

    Murphy will get a good amount of playing time split between catcher, first base, and DH. But he won’t be a “regular”. IOTL Moore, Cooper, Molitor, Oglivie, Thomas, and Lezcano all had really, really good years with the bat. I just can’t see where Murphy becomes a regular, everybody he can replace is better than he is in 1979. If he is lucky, the manager Bamberger (who did seem very open to adjust lineups and positions), will give Murphy a shot as a spot starter in the outfield. That might expand his playing time in later years.
  16. The Dude Bro Well-Known Member

    Aug 28, 2011
    Here's a very fascinating what if: let's say that, in 1915, instead of ruling that baseball (and, by extension, sports teams) do not count as interstate commerce and thus do not fall under the provision of the Sherman Antitrust Act, the Supreme Court rules the exact opposite, perhaps going as far as ordering the breakup of Major League Baseball for violating the Sherman Antitrust Act?
  17. Unknown Member

    Jan 31, 2004
    Corpus Christi, TX
    WI the 49ers draft Aaron Rodgers instead of Alex Smith?
  18. Rojodi Member

    Feb 7, 2012
    That would be an excellent topic to discuss. What effect would it have on minor league baseball? Would the Federal League have survived for a third year, with the Kansas City Packers moving to New York? Would a southern major league be formed in the '20s?

    So many ways to take this.
  19. FDW Banned

    Jun 27, 2009
    San Francisco
    Aaron Rodgers does just as badly, if not more so, given that Rodgers was even less pro-ready than Alex was, and the Niners quite literally had no offense in 2005. Also, Nolan really disliked Aaron Rodgers and thought that the two couldn't co-exist together if that ends being the case then we'll be seeing Nolan bomb out much sooner than OTL.

    As for Alex, he'll either be drafted by the Packers or Redskins (who had QB needs). If he goes to the Packers, then he'll probably replace Favre a year earlier than Rodgers did (and given the good GM office and filled out supporting squad) while also doing everything Rodgers did and then some. Chances are we'd be talking about Alex as being in the same Elite category as Manning and Brady here.

    Now if Alex goes to the Redskins, he'll probably spend some time sitting behind Mark Brunell, eventually coming in 2006. Alex would probably marginally improve the Redskins during this period, but the sheer dysfunction of the franchise would weigh him down, and he probably would've been traded to another team.

    Now, lastly we have to consider Jason Campbell on the Packers. Jason Campbell would end up doing just as well as Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith would've, for the same reasons.
  20. The Dude Bro Well-Known Member

    Aug 28, 2011
    I could perhaps see, across all American major sports, a tendancy towards more leagues, with a smaller number of teams, or perhaps instead less pay for players. So, to use the example of baseball, we could have the National League, American League, Federal League, Continental League, and as many as five more leagues, all between, say, 6-16 teams. Multiple teams in each city as well, probably, since there would be no single league to decide which teams go where, meaning that media space is cramped.

    I could also see, instead of one owner for each team, the league owning all the teams in the league as one single property, in order to avoid constant relocations and foldings to deal with fighting for fans in cities.

    Probably no further World Series or any cross-league/college conference championships/bowls, unless they adopt a college football system, and who wants to ponder that horrible outcome?