Spanish-Portuguese War 1910

Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, this Portugal is going to be different from OTL's Portugal. In OTL, Portugal was political and economical instable. In ATL, the Republic is going to be stronger and more stable, with British support. Also, now we have a veteran Republican Portuguese Army and a Republican-supporters Navy.

I also see a multy-faction Civil War in Spain. Perhaps Germany would support Alphonso XIII.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
TimeStorm said:
Well, this Portugal is going to be different from OTL's Portugal. In OTL, Portugal was political and economical instable. In ATL, the Republic is going to be stronger and more stable, with British support. Also, now we have a veteran Republican Portuguese Army and a Republican-supporters Navy.

I also see a multy-faction Civil War in Spain. Perhaps Germany would support Alphonso XIII.

Hmmm, did Portugal become a great power again after the Peninsular War of OTL ? Not really. These kind of things sap its energy. And about the navy, far more likely that the indigenous navy has been sunk, and what remains is a couple of squadrons sold cheap by Britain coz they could spare them.

So, the king is discredited because the Spanish used him ? Something like that ? Its why I asked for a summary/synopsis

Grey Wolf
 
After seeing my 9th grade History book, it was the Navy that led the revolution, in comand a Navy oficial called Machado do Santos, after the suicide of Admiral Candido dos Reis. So the Navy was Republican from the beginning.

About Portugal itself, in OTL, between 1910-1926, Portugal had 46 governments and 8 Presidents due the political and economical problems created by the monarchists and right-wing parties. In ATL, the Republicans would be more stronger. So, Portugal would be more political and economical stable.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
TimeStorm said:
After seeing my 9th grade History book, it was the Navy that led the revolution, in comand a Navy oficial called Machado do Santos, after the suicide of Admiral Candido dos Reis. So the Navy was Republican from the beginning.

About Portugal itself, in OTL, between 1910-1926, Portugal had 46 governments and 8 Presidents due the political and economical problems created by the monarchists and right-wing parties. In ATL, the Republicans would be more stronger. So, Portugal would be more political and economical stable.

Hmm, well maybe the navy was just narky then, they certainly led the anti-republican uprising both during the war and soon after it

Grey Wolf
 
After some research, I discovered that even before the revolution the Navy was pro-Republican and only part of the Army was pro-Monarchy. That's why the first Republican government had so many Navy officers (also pro-Republican Army officers). That is strange, I know. ;)

Edit: I found a good site with the history of the Republic between 1910-1919. The only problem is that you have to translate from portuguese. http://www.arqnet.pt/portal/portugal/liberalismo/lib1910.html
 
Okay, to summarize events:

Portugal has a revolution and Spanish King D. Alfonso XIII hatches a plot to restore the Portuguese monarchy under Spanish tutelage. With German material aid, the Spanish invade Portugal to this end and rather successful, even tricking the ex-Portuguese King into returning to Portugal under the guise of aiding in peace negotiations between the republicans and monarchists and the ex-King is basically captured by the Spanish and installed (under duress) as the restored monarch. Republican Portugal calls for help and eventually Britain gets involved as does Brazil (the world's other Portuguese speaking republic). French volunteers also help the republican Portuguese. Overseas, the Spanish had sent an expedition from Spain and Spanish Guinea to capture Portuguese West Africa (other Atlantic Portuguese island colonies having been captured already) and the British organize a South African led imperial force of South Africans, Indians and British to aid the Portuguese in regaining their colonies. Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians are also organized by Britain to fight in Spain and Portugal. The British take the Balearic Islands and invade southern Spain from Gibraltar as well as liberate sections of Portugal. After a bit of a stalemate caused by a Spanish rally against the British invasion of southern Spain the republican Portuguese, French volunteers, British Empire and Brazil (the Allies) eventually achieve victory over Spain and the Portuguese monarchists (especially after the Portuguese and British invade Spain from Portugal).

So having seen the war in review do you still think WWI will occur or might the Moroccan Crisis of 1911 erupt into war between Germany and France?

I like your ideas for the Spanish Civil War and initially I was only going to leave it to the realm of discussion or maybe write it in epilogue style, but maybe I will write on it instead or perhaps you would like to try your hand at it or collaborate with myself and Timestorm (if he is interested) on it?

As you can see the ex-King of Portugal is not discredited (being under duress) and only wants to live his life peacefully in Portugal and Britain. The Portuguese republic is strengthened because it received aid in its infancy against a foreign backed monarchist restoration attempt. The monarchists are discredited because they collaborated with the Spanish invasion and occupation and I can easily see the monarchists being called "Spanish lackeys" or "Spanish dogs" (maybe "Cocker Spaniels"?) in the future and not being taken seriously.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Sean thanks :) Very interesting. Whilst of course I don't agree with the 'most probable' aspect of some of this, I am quite happy to concede the 'possible' and work with that.

One question that comes to mind, is why are Australia and New Zealand involved ? Its a minor point, but AFAIK they played no part in eg the Boer War. Maybe I am wrong. I can see why South Africa is involved in Africa, and India too as they are under direct control (see Alexandria and Tel el Kebir) but not sure why the Oceania dominions are involved - unless of course they want to be ! I suppose East Timor makes a nice little prize for Australia...

Regarding Spain, Amedeo died in 1890 but his son, Emanuele Filiberto, the Duke of Aosta is alive and well, and IIRC often viewed himself as SUPERIOR to the King of Italy. He could well lead a strong faction in favour of intervention in Spain, with personal ambitions to reclaim his family's 'right' to the kingship, but more openly stating that Italy's national interests are at stake.

I would still ask how is Portugal going to recover and be BETTER off from all this as Timestorm desires ? Its not only just fought a civil war, its had its own territory devastated. Presumably there will be major British investment, but that defeats the point he made - that Portugal could be a GAIN for Britain in any conflict. Yes, Portugal could be set on its feet again but if it is to be useful to Britain then it can only be done with British money.

I think your idea that Morocco will blow up greater is probably the way to go. There's a Spanish Civil War on, with Italy and Britain involved, presumably some degree of French involvement too. It will look to Germany like they can push and push and get their way, and don't forget this is only a couple of years after Russia backed down after Austria-Hungary's annexation of Bosnia-Hercegovina. Germany could well look on this and risk war...and get it, much to their surprise !

Grey Wolf
 
Well Grey, I'm almost sure some Australians (though maybe not New Zealanders) were involved in the Boer War. All the dominions at this point in time still regard themselves as "British" rather than distinctly "Canadian" or "Australian" or "New Zealander" (only South Africa being an exception where the local whites regard themselves as either "Boer" or "British"). Australia and New Zealand were involved in WWI even though that war started out as a European war and after the quick campaigns in the Pacific they sent soldiers to Europe. That was because they wanted to, out of a sense of being loyal and "British" so when the UK goes to war, they go too. Same applies here. I don't think I made Portuguese Timor a price of British intervention, insofar as the Portuguese would still rule it, but I suspect Australian influence in the half-island colony will be extremely strong after 1911.

"Regarding Spain, Amedeo died in 1890 but his son, Emanuele Filiberto, the Duke of Aosta is alive and well, and IIRC often viewed himself as SUPERIOR to the King of Italy. He could well lead a strong faction in favour of intervention in Spain, with personal ambitions to reclaim his family's 'right' to the kingship, but more openly stating that Italy's national interests are at stake."

So we would have an Italian duke claiming the throne of Spain...would this bring about a de facto Italo-Spanish union kingdom? Also this would mean Italian involvement in Spain and war against Turkey...


Well, Portugal is going to be better off and stronger, not materially (at least not yet), but institutionally, as from 1911 there is now very little chance of potentially destabilizing coups and counter-coups and there will not be 46 governments in 16 years as Timestorm stated happened in OTL (that gives a rate of 2.87 or basically 3 governments per year- now that's unstable any way you slice it). I would wager on Portugal having now at most 8 governments or maybe even 4 or 6 in the next 15-16 years.
Surely Portugal is now devastated and I would wager that it would not recover to pre-war levels before 1913 at earliest, but the British now have a small stake in Portugal and have earned preferential trading rights with the Portuguese empire (which still has lots of valuable raw materials such as diamonds, sugar, etc.) and can now establish bases in Portuguese territory (so the Aussies can set up shop across the sea in Portuguese Timor and the British can set up bases in Portugal, the Azores, Madeira, and the colonies that in OTL became Angola, Mozambique and Guinea-Bissau.

As you said earlier, the Portuguese contribution to any WWI (which now seems less likely to occur in 1914 like it did in OTL as you said, but maybe in 1911) will probably be more of a strain on Britain than any help, but Portugal will probably not require direct British support to transport their soldiers as they would have borrowed, bought for cheap or maybe bought at standard price, old Royal Navy and Marine Nationale (French) transports, cruisers and battleships. The Portuguese will probably also now buy the new British and French weapons that have developed as a result of this war, so Britain will not need to exhaust herself too much in equipping the Portuguese Army (which is now experienced).
The Portuguese contribution will probably not be as good as I imagined, but it would probably be better than you stated for OTL Portugal (which is now different).

"I think your idea that Morocco will blow up greater is probably the way to go. There's a Spanish Civil War on, with Italy and Britain involved, presumably some degree of French involvement too. It will look to Germany like they can push and push and get their way, and don't forget this is only a couple of years after Russia backed down after Austria-Hungary's annexation of Bosnia-Hercegovina. Germany could well look on this and risk war...and get it, much to their surprise !"

Could do yes, only thing is I need to find out when the Moroccan crisis erupted in OTL.
Hmm..I wonder how a 1911 Franco-German war would play out? Isn't Schlieffen still alive? If Germany invades through Belgium then Britain may get involved as in OTL. But I am not sure if Russia will get involved (although it is probable). Austria-Hungary will probably side with Germany, but oddly enough Serbia may escape the flames as A-H has no real beef with it for now. The Balkans may be oddly peaceful, or the OTL states of the Balkan League may take this opportunity to beat up on Turkey as a separate war from the Moroccan Crisis one (or maybe the Balkan League, containing a number of Russian proteges will join the Allies).
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Well, I don't think Italy will win but I can see them intervening, with Aosta hoping things go well enough to see him on the throne whereas the official Italian position is different.

The anarcho-syndicalists could well rise up and declare little mini republics and then have these put down violently by whoever is around

I haven't really thought the details out yet

One things to notice is that Libya will remain Ottoman if Italy is engaged elsewhere. Whatever happens in the Balkans, Libya is safe for now. Without an Italo-Turkish War, the Ottoman army and navy will be stronger in the Balkans so the states may not find it an opportune moment to act. Of course, if there is a world war on then the removal of Austrian and Russian attention may compensate for this

Grey Wolf
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Note to Gray Wolf, Australian/New Zealand troops in Boar War Called Imperial Horse i think. Also see film "Breaker Morran " tells story of Aus shot by Brits for killing Boar Prisoners.
 
I like this TL however I would add a couple of things.

In the first years of the TL you speak of a basque uprising, that would have never happened. Basque nationalism was extremely weak then, however you could have a carlist uprising. That would add another faction to the oncoming spanish civil war and a candidate to the throne after Alfonso's fall.

I think WWI would start as soon as GB or Germany get involved in the war.
 
Time8ter said:
Anyone has an idea of how WWI is going to happen in this TL?
as soon as england or germany or france get involved. if the idea of restoring the portuguese king is acepted even rusia will side by the absolute monarchies (spain, germany, austria and italy). against democracies (france, england and the us). and france will be the one to fight in two fronts in he east against germany and in the west against spain.
 
I think that conflict could turn into an earlier WW 1, if Britain decides to interfere militarily. The Central Powers would be a bit stronger... strong enough to win? But what happens after the Allies fight down Spain and Spain has to leave the war?
 
Galbatorix said:
as soon as england or germany or france get involved. if the idea of restoring the portuguese king is acepted even rusia will side by the absolute monarchies (spain, germany, austria and italy). against democracies (france, england and the us). and france will be the one to fight in two fronts in he east against germany and in the west against spain.

Italy was fairly liberal at the time, would not automatically side with CP.

Not sure you can mount a serious threat against France from Spain. Spain is very weakened, torn by a civil war, vulnerable from Portugal where British forces are stationed, and you have te Pyrenees to cross... The weakness of Spain could actually be a good bait for Italy to get involved on the side of the Entente to grab some colonies in North or Equatorial Africa, maybe even the Baleares.
 
benedict XVII said:
Italy was fairly liberal at the time, would not automatically side with CP.

Not sure you can mount a serious threat against France from Spain. Spain is very weakened, torn by a civil war, vulnerable from Portugal where British forces are stationed, and you have te Pyrenees to cross... The weakness of Spain could actually be a good bait for Italy to get involved on the side of the Entente to grab some colonies in North or Equatorial Africa, maybe even the Baleares.
Yes, but France would still have to face two fronts...
 
Condottiero said:
Yes, but France would still have to face two fronts...

For 4 weeks, and they can wait behind the Pyrenees with a small screen until the Brits and Portuguese pound them down. Not much more of a distraction than the Eastern front was OTL for French resources. And German U-boats will lose the coaling stations they were using secretly OTL.
 
I like this TL

But, I was hoping for a Spanish win, so that the Germans and Spanish could clean-up in World War I.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top