Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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I think as far as British commanders go ittl, the Germans and Italians consider Sir Richard O'Connor as their best commander
Yes, but he out-Rommeled Rommel, before Rommel was known to be Rommel.
(Sits down with a headache from thinking about that)
12 June 1941. Operation Battleaxe. Day 5.
allanpcameron
Donor
12 June 1941. Operation Battleaxe. Day 5.
The 11th Hussars, with all the miles they had travelled, their Morris C9 armoured cars were close to worn out. The Valiant I* tanks of 4th CYL (Sharpshooters) and the 11th Prince Albert Victor's Own Cavalry (Frontier Force) had, in their stead, probed forward beyond Wadi Harawah, seeking information about where the next defensive position was. Other than some interference from the Luftwaffe they found almost nothing. The LRDG had gone further and were beginning to suspect that Sirte was where the main line of resistance was set.
The arrival at Ras El Ali of elements of 6th Infantry Division, and many of the wounded from all the forces, including Italians and Germans, was in danger of overwhelming the field hospitals of the RAMC. The arrival of first tranche of coasters which unloaded their supplies, were turned into impromptu hospital ships on the way back via Benghazi. As each of the 6th Division’s troop carriers were unloaded, after a short interval to refuel and do a quick maintenance check, their lorries were turned around with the men of 26th Brigade of 9th Australian Division were loaded up and sent westwards. The rest of the 9th Australian Division were concentrating at Ras El Ali, ready to be brought forward to take the place of 6th Infantry Division.
Occasional air raids by the Luftwaffe interrupted all the work that was being done by all the various elements of the army. The RAOC and RASC were busy moving supplies forward to create new Field Supply Depots around Nofilia. The Royal Engineers were doing all sorts of jobs to improve the communications links between Ras El Ali and Nofilia. The need to unload the coasters was just another role, in which the Pioneer Corps played an important role in this crucial job.
The 7th Armoured Brigade spent much of day sorting themselves out. There was a lot of maintenance to be done on the running tanks: water, fuel and ammunition to be loaded, and the men given some time to look after themselves and their own equipment. The temperature during the day made being around armour very difficult, so having a rest in the afternoon was a welcome relief. Some very lucky parties even managed a swim in the Mediterranean. The Light Aid Detachments didn’t have the same privilege. Getting some of the heavier repair jobs done was difficult in the heat, and they concentrated on getting those tanks moving that they could with the tools and spares at hand. The Royal Navy were sending some of their A Lighters to Ras El Ali so that some of the tanks that needed to go back to the Delta Depots for major work could be sent by sea. As many tank transporters as could be gathered were on their way to pick up the tanks that needed to go back to the RAOC Divisional Workshop and Armoured Corps Workshop south of Bardia.
There were ironic cheers whenever another tank arrived from the rendezvous point. These had usually had some kind of breakdown or had got stuck in unforgiving terrain. One of 7th Armoured Brigade’s Light Aid Detachment had been retracing the route the Armoured Division had taken trying to help the crews fix up their mechanicals. There were some tanks that were considered write-offs, there was just no way of getting them from where they’d broken down back to a depot, at least not without a herculean effort. Some tanks, very few, at most five, were missing. Driving over the desert at night, it wouldn’t take much to go off on the wrong heading and get completely lost. A couple of RAF Lysanders were flying over the route searching for missing or isolated men, dropping supplies and radioing their position to those searching for them. Before setting off the 7th Armoured Division and 4th Indian Division had undergone an intensive course from the LRDG on desert survival skills, and very vehicle had set off with enough extra water to last them a week, if properly rationed. The ‘Jerry Cans’ that had started appearing in large numbers were a godsend for this task. The two Divisions had received much more than their fair share of these to allow water and diesel to be carried without too much leakage.
The men and tanks of 7th Tank Brigade which had been transferred to the Armoured Brigades, since both were using the Valiant I Infantry Tank Mark III, and were men of the Royal Tank Regiment, made the transition fairly easily. Where possible, troops and squadrons that were used to working together stayed together. There was a lot of retuning of radios to be done, and some banter between the two lots of men about the difference between coming from an ‘armoured’ or a ‘tank’ Brigade. The distinction in the Middle East was so minor that everyone was just happy to get on with their jobs.
Before the end of the day, most of the dead had been collected and graves dug. The padres had been busy all day, and before sunset, funeral services were conducted with as much ceremony as possible. The Indian troops had taken care of their own dead in their own ways. The Italian and German dead were treated with as much respect, and laid to rest in their own plots, alongside the British. The work of informing the Red Cross of the German and Italian dead, wounded and POW would take many hours of work to sort through identity disks and papers. In tents not far off, the Intelligence men were going through the treasure trove of papers, maps and other information that had fallen into their laps. Another group of Intelligence men were working with those sorting out the POWs, especially the officers. It was noted, for example, that the Italians and German prisoners were insistent on being kept separated, there was obviously some bad blood between them about the way the Italians had been left as the Panzers pulled out.
The 11th Hussars, with all the miles they had travelled, their Morris C9 armoured cars were close to worn out. The Valiant I* tanks of 4th CYL (Sharpshooters) and the 11th Prince Albert Victor's Own Cavalry (Frontier Force) had, in their stead, probed forward beyond Wadi Harawah, seeking information about where the next defensive position was. Other than some interference from the Luftwaffe they found almost nothing. The LRDG had gone further and were beginning to suspect that Sirte was where the main line of resistance was set.
The arrival at Ras El Ali of elements of 6th Infantry Division, and many of the wounded from all the forces, including Italians and Germans, was in danger of overwhelming the field hospitals of the RAMC. The arrival of first tranche of coasters which unloaded their supplies, were turned into impromptu hospital ships on the way back via Benghazi. As each of the 6th Division’s troop carriers were unloaded, after a short interval to refuel and do a quick maintenance check, their lorries were turned around with the men of 26th Brigade of 9th Australian Division were loaded up and sent westwards. The rest of the 9th Australian Division were concentrating at Ras El Ali, ready to be brought forward to take the place of 6th Infantry Division.
Occasional air raids by the Luftwaffe interrupted all the work that was being done by all the various elements of the army. The RAOC and RASC were busy moving supplies forward to create new Field Supply Depots around Nofilia. The Royal Engineers were doing all sorts of jobs to improve the communications links between Ras El Ali and Nofilia. The need to unload the coasters was just another role, in which the Pioneer Corps played an important role in this crucial job.
The 7th Armoured Brigade spent much of day sorting themselves out. There was a lot of maintenance to be done on the running tanks: water, fuel and ammunition to be loaded, and the men given some time to look after themselves and their own equipment. The temperature during the day made being around armour very difficult, so having a rest in the afternoon was a welcome relief. Some very lucky parties even managed a swim in the Mediterranean. The Light Aid Detachments didn’t have the same privilege. Getting some of the heavier repair jobs done was difficult in the heat, and they concentrated on getting those tanks moving that they could with the tools and spares at hand. The Royal Navy were sending some of their A Lighters to Ras El Ali so that some of the tanks that needed to go back to the Delta Depots for major work could be sent by sea. As many tank transporters as could be gathered were on their way to pick up the tanks that needed to go back to the RAOC Divisional Workshop and Armoured Corps Workshop south of Bardia.
There were ironic cheers whenever another tank arrived from the rendezvous point. These had usually had some kind of breakdown or had got stuck in unforgiving terrain. One of 7th Armoured Brigade’s Light Aid Detachment had been retracing the route the Armoured Division had taken trying to help the crews fix up their mechanicals. There were some tanks that were considered write-offs, there was just no way of getting them from where they’d broken down back to a depot, at least not without a herculean effort. Some tanks, very few, at most five, were missing. Driving over the desert at night, it wouldn’t take much to go off on the wrong heading and get completely lost. A couple of RAF Lysanders were flying over the route searching for missing or isolated men, dropping supplies and radioing their position to those searching for them. Before setting off the 7th Armoured Division and 4th Indian Division had undergone an intensive course from the LRDG on desert survival skills, and very vehicle had set off with enough extra water to last them a week, if properly rationed. The ‘Jerry Cans’ that had started appearing in large numbers were a godsend for this task. The two Divisions had received much more than their fair share of these to allow water and diesel to be carried without too much leakage.
The men and tanks of 7th Tank Brigade which had been transferred to the Armoured Brigades, since both were using the Valiant I Infantry Tank Mark III, and were men of the Royal Tank Regiment, made the transition fairly easily. Where possible, troops and squadrons that were used to working together stayed together. There was a lot of retuning of radios to be done, and some banter between the two lots of men about the difference between coming from an ‘armoured’ or a ‘tank’ Brigade. The distinction in the Middle East was so minor that everyone was just happy to get on with their jobs.
Before the end of the day, most of the dead had been collected and graves dug. The padres had been busy all day, and before sunset, funeral services were conducted with as much ceremony as possible. The Indian troops had taken care of their own dead in their own ways. The Italian and German dead were treated with as much respect, and laid to rest in their own plots, alongside the British. The work of informing the Red Cross of the German and Italian dead, wounded and POW would take many hours of work to sort through identity disks and papers. In tents not far off, the Intelligence men were going through the treasure trove of papers, maps and other information that had fallen into their laps. Another group of Intelligence men were working with those sorting out the POWs, especially the officers. It was noted, for example, that the Italians and German prisoners were insistent on being kept separated, there was obviously some bad blood between them about the way the Italians had been left as the Panzers pulled out.
A very necessary pause in operations for the Empire. One question- how aware are they off the vast amounts of Signals intelligence Rommel was able to gain from their sloppy Operational Security?
Also a few edits:
Also a few edits:
Sentence structure on both of these needs reworking.
Every vehicle
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They will get closely inspected and a lot - I mean a small library - of notes will be sent back to London, along with any information about how the Germans use their tank units (which will probably baffle or enrage Martell).
There's another point to be made here. The British are by and large using their divisions en masse, as divisions. They need to get a bit better at it, but as the Italians and Germans have discovered, a British armoured division has a great deal of weight to it. There's been no splintering off of units into Jock Columns or experimental brigade groups the way that happened IOTL. Too many officers were trying to work out how to beat Rommel and tried to copy what they thought were German tactics on the fly and with insufficient support units - almost always with catastrophic results, such as at Gazala.
The intel types are also going to bug the hell out of the officer and NCO billets in the PoW Camps as well and if they talk shop there it will give them a lot of insights into how the German Army thinks when it comes to armoured warfare. It was done for the Luft during the Battle of Britain and it gave the RAF a lot of valuable insight into how they think as well as the overall state of the Luft.
I imagine the Panzer officers will be getting the same treatment as well.
Not necessarily. The Germans were badly beaten so what they were doing was obviously the wrong thing, and what the British were doing was obviously the right thing.
Perhaps Carden requests captured Panzer III's and IV's for his own testing and evaluation? 🤔
I would hazard a guess that a fair amount of captured German and Italian vehicles and equipment could be put to work. Tanks, trucks, artillery and support vehicles. If repairable and useful then paint a few big kangaroos on them and use them for the assault on Sirte. There ought to be enough captured ammunition lying around to put some of the artillery pieces if they weren't spiked and some of captured tanks to use.
The way things stand in TTL at this point it leads me to suggest two questions.
1. How much further assistance is likely to be forthcoming from the Germans to assist the Italians in defending their colony in North Africa? Not only for the various army reinforcements being requested but also more Luftwaffe units. Considering that Operation Barbarossa is about to commence. Also the more far-sighted German staff officers might be starting to look at the strategic importance of defending Sicily since North Africa must be looking like a lost cause resource sink to the Germans by now.
2. What happens to Rommel? Clearly General Gariboldi doesn't want him around. Even though he is requesting more German assistance Gariboldi will likely make it clear that he insists on a replacement commanding officer of the Africa Corp's remnants. Perhaps he may also insist that the German forces be placed under his overall command. How likely is Berlin to agree to that? My guess is Rommel ends up commanding a division in Russia. Followed by 10 years shoveling shit in some Gulag camp.
1. How much further assistance is likely to be forthcoming from the Germans to assist the Italians in defending their colony in North Africa? Not only for the various army reinforcements being requested but also more Luftwaffe units. Considering that Operation Barbarossa is about to commence. Also the more far-sighted German staff officers might be starting to look at the strategic importance of defending Sicily since North Africa must be looking like a lost cause resource sink to the Germans by now.
2. What happens to Rommel? Clearly General Gariboldi doesn't want him around. Even though he is requesting more German assistance Gariboldi will likely make it clear that he insists on a replacement commanding officer of the Africa Corp's remnants. Perhaps he may also insist that the German forces be placed under his overall command. How likely is Berlin to agree to that? My guess is Rommel ends up commanding a division in Russia. Followed by 10 years shoveling shit in some Gulag camp.
So, have the German/Italian recovery units been a bit faster then their British counterparts, or are we just seeing problems with navigating the desert?
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