Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Derek Pullem]

I think they will struggle to hold Java - could be an early land campaign like OTL Guadalcanal because I don't think they will have the resources to take Ambon and New Guinea. And it's easily reinforceable for the Allies. Celebres are similar but less valuable to the Japanese so I suspect they will be further down the pecking list.

 

[Thoresby]

You need to take the Celebes to secure the Makassar Strait to even think about Java and a prolonged campaign in Java seems highly likely which as in OTL will almost certainly devolve into an attritional nightmare with victory going to the side that can meet the logistical needs better, the IJN is going to remain the bigger force in the region for the foreseeable future but their record in prioritising supply convoys speaks for itself.

 

[CB13]

Can anyone speak to the ability of relativity light forces in the DEI in 1941 to withstand invasion without heavy coastal guns or torpedo aircraft/ dive bombers? Setting aside the larger armed vessels (heavy cruiser and larger), how vulnerable would the troop-carrying vessels be to land-based Howitzers? Especially once they had stopped to unload their troops into their smaller landing boats? Given the waters there I have to assume that unloading would take place quite close to the beach which would not only be in range of smaller mountain howitzers but likely even heavier mortars?

 

[wally]

Philips then noted that Singapore was vulnerable to air attack, and that he was considering that the main fleet would tend to work out of Ceylon. The admiralty were talking about sending the old R Class battleships to Ceylon, and that would give an added slow force, if necessary. He also noted that he was due to fly to the Philippines on 5 December to meet with Admiral Hart and General MacArthur to talk about joint operations. Vice-Admiral Layton wished him luck with that, Hart was a good man, but MacArthur had no desire to cooperate with the British.

I believe the visit to the Philippines is not OTL. Does this mean Philips will not be with the fleet when it leaves early on the 10th and so will not be leaving skid marks over the S China sea as he gets the fleet to race all over the place trying to find transports?

 

[freelander]

Well until they see the Russian JS and German King Tigers.

Note in OTL although we see the Centurion as the only tank it was not and the British only went to one tank with the Cheiftain.
UK did produce a heavy tank to support the Centurion - it was the Conqueror

I see the RTR Conqueror every day at work it’s a shame that it is a none runner I would give my Mrs away to drive it lol

 

[allanpcameron]

I believe the visit to the Philippines is not OTL. Does this mean Philips will not be with the fleet when it leaves early on the 10th and so will not be leaving skid marks over the S China sea as he gets the fleet to race all over the place trying to find transports?

My information is that is OTL (possibly out by a day)
From here

Admiral Phillips, who had flown from Colombo to Singapore in advance of Prince of Wales and Repulse and taken up duty as Commander-in-Chief Eastern Fleet (leaving local naval defence to Vice-Admiral Layton ) flew on 4th December to confer at Manila with the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Asiatic Fleet, Admiral Thomas C . Hart. The conference was ended abruptly by news that a large Japanese convoy was on its way from Camranh Bay towards the Gulf of Siam . As Phillips was leaving for Singapore because of this situation, Hart told him that he had just ordered four of his destroyers, then at Balikpapan (Borneo), to join Phillips' force.

 

[fester]

4 December 1941. Liverpool. England.


Changes had been made to the Support Group due to the lessons of North Africa. While the three RA regiments, 5th RHA, 73rd Anti-tank and 56th LAA were still assigned, 133rd Motorised Infantry Brigade (4th Bn Buffs, 4th & 5th Bn Royal Sussex Regiment) had been added to 8th Armoured Division. The three Battalions were equipped with the new Viking Tracked Personnel Carrier Loyd carrier, designed by Vivian Loyd, an expanded and better protected version of the Loyd Carrier. The other two Motorised Infantry Brigades of 44th Infantry Division (131st & 132nd) had been assigned to 6th and 9th Armoured Divisions to have one Motor Brigade to two Armoured Brigades.

For McCreery the power of 8th Armoured Division was breath-taking. Along with 340 excellent tanks, 2 Derby Yeomanry in a mixture of Humber Armoured Cars and Daimler Dingoes were his reconnaissance force. He had two more Royal Horse Artillery Regiments (11th and 104th) in addition to 5th RHA, all equipped with Birch SPGs, as well as 146th Field Regiment RA, with towed 25-pdrs. The Royal Engineers and Signals and all the other Administration units meant that he was going to war with a force that he could only have dreamed of when fighting as part of 1st Armoured Division in France in 1940.

The opportunity to take the Division that McCreery had trained into battle was too good to miss, wherever that might take them.

Someone is about ready to kiss the donkey.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

4 December 1941. Liverpool. England.

Another Winston Special Convoy was being prepared to sail in a few days. The ships were gathering, the equipment and stores were being loaded on. Generally, the troopships would sail from the Clyde, and many of the men were enjoying their last few days of home leave for the foreseeable future. There were however plenty of men of 8th Armoured Division working in Liverpool to make sure that their tanks were prepared for an ocean voyage and that nothing of any importance went missing in the process.

23rd and 24th Armoured Brigades had been formed originally as Army Tank Brigades, but in November 1940 had been redesignated as Armoured Brigades when 8th Armoured Division was formed. The two Brigades were made up of six battalions of the Royal Tank Regiment (23rd Brigade: 9th, 46th, 50th; 24th Brigade: 10th, 45th, 47th). Four of the Battalions were equipped with Valiant I*, the cruiser variant of the Valiant I. 9th and 11th Battalions were the first equipped with the Valiant II*, with the 6-pdr gun, to be shipped abroad.

Major-General Richard McCreery, GOC 8th Armoured Division, was aware that his orders were likely to change after they sailed. The plan originally was that 8th Armoured Division were going to relieve 7th Armoured Division in North Africa, allowing the men of that Division to rest and regroup since they had been in the thick of the action for almost two years. As well as the Valiant I* & II* tanks of his own Division, the convoy would carry another 350 tanks to re-equip 2nd and 7th Armoured Divisions, covering their losses during Operation Crusader. Nearly all the Valiant II* tanks built so far would be sailing in WS 14.

With the news coming from Tripoli, McCreery and his staff weren’t sure what the future would hold for them. He could find himself fighting the French, or working with 10th Armoured Division holding back the Germans if they broke through the Caucasus Mountains into Persia. Rumours of action in the Far East were also swilling around. The fact that the equipment issued was for the tropics meant that he knew at least that he could look forward to sunnier climes.

Changes had been made to the Support Group due to the lessons of North Africa. While the three RA regiments, 5th RHA, 73rd Anti-tank and 56th LAA were still assigned, 133rd Motorised Infantry Brigade (4th Bn Buffs, 4th & 5th Bn Royal Sussex Regiment) had been added to 8th Armoured Division. The three Battalions were equipped with the new Viking Tracked Personnel Carrier Loyd carrier, designed by Vivian Loyd, an expanded and better protected version of the Loyd Carrier. The other two Motorised Infantry Brigades of 44th Infantry Division (131st & 132nd) had been assigned to 6th and 9th Armoured Divisions to have one Motor Brigade to two Armoured Brigades.

For McCreery the power of 8th Armoured Division was breath-taking. Along with 340 excellent tanks, 2 Derby Yeomanry in a mixture of Humber Armoured Cars and Daimler Dingoes were his reconnaissance force. He had two more Royal Horse Artillery Regiments (11th and 104th) in addition to 5th RHA, all equipped with Birch SPGs, as well as 146th Field Regiment RA, with towed 25-pdrs. The Royal Engineers and Signals and all the other Administration units meant that he was going to war with a force that he could only have dreamed of when fighting as part of 1st Armoured Division in France in 1940.

McCreery had turned down the chance to command the Armoured Group of Home Forces, consisting of 1st, 6th, 9th, Armoured Divisions, along with Canadian 5th Armoured Division. Guards, 11th and 42nd Armoured Divisions were still equipping and training. Sending the 8th Armoured Division abroad earlier than planned was only because the Canadians had their own tanks built in Canada and shipped over with their men.

The opportunity to take the Division that McCreery had trained into battle was too good to miss, wherever that might take them.

That lot will be a shock for someone when it gets sent on to help the Dutch on Java. In the unlikely event that the Japanese plan runs on schedule they've got until 28 February to get there. Of course any Japanese landings on Java are likely to be delayed by other operation requirements.

 

[MattII]

I agree they will have to launch some sort of operation aimed at neutralising Singapore but with Borneo better defended than OTL and Malaya much better defended than OTL if they try for both in the first phase of the invasion they will fail and they will know that they will fail. The Japanese weren't complete morons, otherwise they would not have achieved what they did in OTL. The only viable path for them is a reinforced over OTL attack on Borneo (which will almost certainly succeed) along with their OTL attack on the Celebes post the Philippines. As soon as the Kido Butai gets back from the Pearl Harbour operation it can be sent on a major raid on Singapore that even if it doesn't work will probably force the RN to fall back to Ceylon which will enable the Japanese to go for Java. The strength with which Malaya is held means Sumatra is out of reach of the Japanese but if they can take Java along with Borneo and Celebes they have secured a vast amount of natural resources including the crucial oil fields.
Of course if the British and Commonwealth Armies can stop the Japanese from doing that then the Japanese are completely screwed, their fleet will run out of oil within 18 months and that's the end of the war.

Let's see how much of a navy they have going by the time the KB arrive.

Can anyone speak to the ability of relativity light forces in the DEI in 1941 to withstand invasion without heavy coastal guns or torpedo aircraft/ dive bombers? Setting aside the larger armed vessels (heavy cruiser and larger), how vulnerable would the troop-carrying vessels be to land-based Howitzers? Especially once they had stopped to unload their troops into their smaller landing boats? Given the waters there I have to assume that unloading would take place quite close to the beach which would not only be in range of smaller mountain howitzers but likely even heavier mortars?

Probably not great.

One important question is where the Japanese are building up. Remember, the British are running a submarine picket line across the mouth of the Gulf of Tonkin, so any buildup in the gulf will be spotted well ahead of time. Mind you, any buildup outside of the gulf might well be missed.

 

[Thoresby]

Let's see how much of a navy they have going by the time the KB arrive.

The RN isn't going to have 6 big flattops with early war quality Japanese pilots in the Far East in mid January-February 42. If the British try and fight a fleet engagement it's going to the badly unless either the Japanese have been attritted or the RAF presence has been significantly reinforced.

 

[pjmidd]

The RN isn't going to have 6 big flattops with early war quality Japanese pilots in the Far East in mid January-February 42. If the British try and fight a fleet engagement it's going to the badly unless either the Japanese have been attritted or the RAF presence has been significantly reinforced.

Let you in a secret , the RN would not fight fair , shock horror. It would hide and then launch the air strike at night as it was the only Navy that trained in doing that. IJN pilots would not be in the air as the entire wing of an IJN carrier was day only. Add in it would rather unsportingly have lots of submarines with working torpedoes right were the IJN had to go ( attacking Singapore means entering waters that are not exactly trackless )

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Let you in a secret , the RN would not fight fair , shock horror. It would hide and then launch the air strike at night as it was the only Navy that trained in doing that. IJN pilots would not be in the air as the entire wing of an IJN carrier was day only. Add in it would rather unsportingly have lots of submarines with working torpedoes right were the IJN had to go ( attacking Singapore means entering waters that are not exactly trackless )

There's an element everyone's forgetting about a possible carrier based Battle of the Java Sea. The USN carrier force is also likely to turn up if there's a possible fleet action in the works. HMS Indomitable should also be with the British Eastern Fleet by mid January.

 

[MattII]

The RN isn't going to have 6 big flattops with early war quality Japanese pilots in the Far East in mid January-February 42. If the British try and fight a fleet engagement it's going to the badly unless either the Japanese have been attritted or the RAF presence has been significantly reinforced.

Japanese ASW is pretty terrible. It's not above the waves but below them where the Japanese will bleed. Also, I was talking about the Japanese there (I should have been clearer).

Any significant buildup in the Bay of Tonkin is likely to be spotted, though I have no idea if that's where the Japanese are concentrating, but if they are, their whole plan will come unraveled even before they attack.

 

[edgeworthy]

Three days away from Pearl Harbour. Safe bet is that they'll be diverted to either Malaya or Burma.

The big question is whether they'll risk a fast run through the Med or go around the Cape.

Historically the 7th Armoured Brigade, with M3 Stuarts was sent to Burma.

 

[kelgar04]

Historically the 7th Armoured Brigade, with M3 Stuarts was sent to Burma.

Stuart's are pretty reliable little beasts I think some would probably be welcomed for recon ITTL as well.

Though what is it with the USA and the M3 designation? It gets confusing as hell.

 

[RyderWest]

Though what is it with the USA and the M3 designation? It gets confusing as hell.

They assigned the M3 designation depending on what type of vehicle or weapon it was. So you got the M3 Stuart light tank, the M3 Grant medium tank, the M3 scout car, the M3 halftrack, the M3 Grease Gun...

 

[allanpcameron]

5 December 1941. Tripoli, Libya.

The impromptu victory parade through Tripoli had begun with the tanks of 7th Armoured Division moving west to close the gap with 2nd Armoured Division at Zuara who were heading to the Tunisian border. The men of 7th Motor Brigade, accompanying the tanks, began flying flags and generally enjoying the procession. Not wanting to be left out, the first couple of units of 50th Infantry Division got themselves into marching order and stepped out smartly along the main road through the city. 6th Infantry Division, not be outdone had 1st Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders pipers following the Guards Battalions.

The New Zealanders and 4th Indian Division who were moving towards the Tunisian border, along with 2nd Armoured Division heard about XIII Corps ‘victory parade’. Lieutenant-General Pope (GOC XXX Corps) agreed to allow a contingent from the various regiments to travel into Tripoli to take part in the celebrations. The disconsolate Italian prisoners shuffling along in the opposite direction just added to the British and Empire troop’s feeling of elation.

Lieutenant-General O’Connor found himself taking the salute of the men passing, while standing in a Daimler scout car. The General and his staff had been finalising the Italian surrender details when they heard cheering. Going out to see what was happening, O’Connor found himself at the centre of the events. He was clear that the men deserved their moment of glory. The road and the miles from the Egyptian border all the way to the border with Tunisia was an accomplishment as great as any achieved before by the British army. He did pass on orders for the Military Police to be on full alert, just in case.

The Royal Navy were busy at the port trying to sort out the damage inflicted over the campaign. The senior officer present had estimated that ships could start unloading within a few days. Mine clearance, and checking for unexploded ordnance, was the priority. The Royal Air Force was rushing forward to take ownership of airfields previously occupied by the Regio Aeronautica and Luftwaffe.

 

[MattII]

The war isn't quite over, but with any luck the theatre will soon be secure, thanks to events half a world away.

 

[Derek Pullem]

5 December 1941. Tripoli, Libya.

The disconsolate Italian prisoners shuffling along in the opposite direction just added to the British and Empire troop’s feeling of elation.

Lieutenant-General O’Connor found himself taking the salute of the men passing, while standing in a Daimler scout car. The General and his staff had been finalising the Italian surrender details when they heard cheering.

Italian surrender details.

I guess there is a convoy of Germans somewhere west of Tripoli...........

 

[kelgar04]

Well I guess the RN will be bringing some beer and rum ashore for the party and the Army will be looting what the Italians left in there cellars.