Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Fred the Great]

>A single company surrendered
so a platoon surrendered…
>And they probably rejoined their battalion a few hours later minus
The never ending shame of Australian ironic recrimination

The living envy the dead. Italians aren't bad soliders. They're just soldiers deployed poorly and facing odds reinforced by odds. The Australians will take a horrible toll on that company's remnants emotionally, that's how australians are. It will be unfair, and brutal. That's how australians are.

What on Earth are you on about? Unfair and brutal?

 

[Garrison]

My understand was italy was one of the best prepared for war in 1936 - but could not modernise for the actual date of the war

I think that's really relative to Britain and France where there was still strong pressure for disarmament and Germany which was just at the point of publicly throwing off the Versailles restrictions. Once everyone else kicked their rearmament into high gear the deficiencies of the Italian system became obvious.

 

[kelgar04]

My understand was italy was one of the best prepared for war in 1936 - but could not modernise for the actual date of the war

Aye on paper it's true but the same could have been said for the French at the start but The problem is they didn't really have the capacity for what they needed and the deficiencies of their gear became quickly apparent like with their armour for instance or their aircraft.

 

[allanpcameron]

My understand was italy was one of the best prepared for war in 1936 - but could not modernise for the actual date of the war

That's an interesting statement. I always thought that Mussolini agreed to go with Hitler on the condition of a 1942 start. My knowledge of the Spanish Civil War is limited, but how did the Italian expeditionary force do there in the late '30s?
Allan

 

[M35Mako]

but how did the Italian expeditionary force do there in the late '30s?

Very poorly. They were so badly defeated by the Spanish republicans at the battle of Guadalajara that the Spanish nationalists even toasted the republican forces, singing "Spaniards, even red ones, are brave" in mockery of the Italian forces being so badly (and embarrassingly) beaten. Franco had such a low opinion of the Italian expeditionary force he even threatened to break it up. Not to mention his annoyance that Mussolini seemed to be trying to win "his" civil war by himself.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Did I read right that part of the 9th Australian Division surrendered? Given that those were the guys (the 9th Australian Division) who in the original timeline successfully held Tobruk for multiple months against an Axis siege until relieved, and given that they played a major part in pulling Monty's chestnuts out of the fire for him at Second El Alamein after the British armour couldn't deliver in the early stages and Monty had to rewrite the plan on the fly, I have to wonder what the heck happened here?

Edit:
Sorry for the nit-pick in otherwise great stuff, but that bit surprised me.

Being tough sobs defending from well prepared positions with gun covered minefields and wire is one thing being overrun by tanks and taking heavy losses is quite another.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Very poorly. They were so badly defeated by the Spanish republicans at the battle of Guadalajara that the Spanish nationalists even toasted the republican forces, singing "Spaniards, even red ones, are brave" in mockery of the Italian forces being so badly (and embarrassingly) beaten. Franco had such a low opinion of the Italian expeditionary force he even threatened to break it up. Not to mention his annoyance that Mussolini seemed to be trying to win "his" civil war by himself.

The biggest issue ‘to Italy’ was the cost of the deployment to Spain to the Italian economy. The cost of supporting the 4 later 3 divisions of the CTV and other forces was about 1/5th of government expenditure over 3 years.

This burden along with other ‘adventures’ had serious ramifications regarding Italy’s preparedness for WW2.

 

[RyderWest]

I wonder how the Brits will view the Italian tanks in comparison to their own ones.

 

[nepcotevalley]

I wonder how the Brits will view the Italian tanks in comparison to their own ones.

I rather doubt that they'll be terribly impressed by them. Especially when you consider how British tanks are greatly improved in this TL .

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I wonder how the Brits will view the Italian tanks in comparison to their own ones.

Otl they thought they were junk. That opinion is not likely to have changed.

 

[kelgar04]

I wonder how the Brits will view the Italian tanks in comparison to their own ones.

Same as they did OTL they were junk made out of poor steel that tended to crack when hit by a shot that didn't penetrate which screwed them followed by most of them being riveted which means they became deadly shrapnel. Also general poor design and layout when compared to Allied or other Axis armour.

Though a good chunk of their medium tanks except the M15/42 tank used diesel instead of petrol which made their engines a lot more stable.

 

[RyderWest]

I rather doubt that they'll be terribly impressed by them. Especially when you consider how British tanks are greatly improved in this TL .

Otl they thought they were junk. That opinion is not likely to have changed.

Same as they did OTL they were junk made out of poor steel that tended to crack when hit by a shot that didn't penetrate which screwed them followed by most of them being riveted which means they became deadly shrapnel. Also general poor design and layout when compared to Allied or other Axis armour.

Though a good chunk of their medium tanks except the M15/42 tank used diesel instead of petrol which made their engines a lot more stable.

At least the Brits have a lot of newly minted M13/40 wrecks they can examine, it seems.

But yeah, Italian tanks don't really have a good reputation for a good reason.

 

[CB13]

It obviously can't happen immediately, but you would think after this experience, that Mussolini would "motivate" his engineers to adapt their aircraft engines to at least enable emergency production of the P40 (or an evolution of it based on their experience in Libya).

 

[marathag]

It obviously can't happen immediately, but you would think after this experience, that Mussolini would "motivate" his engineers to adapt their aircraft engines to at least enable emergency production of the P40 (or an evolution of it based on their experience in Libya).

Just too late, and FIAT had actually more pull on the Council than the Moose, so he couldn't force them, or even threaten that much

 

[CaptainCalvert]

It obviously can't happen immediately, but you would think after this experience, that Mussolini would "motivate" his engineers to adapt their aircraft engines to at least enable emergency production of the P40 (or an evolution of it based on their experience in Libya).

OTL, I thought the Italians did produce some reasonable single wing fighters (eg centauro) but couldn't handle large scale production.

Edit. Yep, wrong type of P40. I was thinking of flying ones.

 

[RyderWest]

It obviously can't happen immediately, but you would think after this experience, that Mussolini would "motivate" his engineers to adapt their aircraft engines to at least enable emergency production of the P40 (or an evolution of it based on their experience in Libya).

Isn't the P40 still riveted?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

OTL, I thought the Italians did produce some reasonable single wing fighters (eg centauro) but couldn't handle large scale production.

I doubt the Germans will be willing to let the Italians have the DB601 engine or much in the way of technical support now though. Once Barbarossa starts sucking in ever increasing amounts of men and resources it's quite likely they get written off as a bad job now they're not able to keep the British distracted in North Africa.

 

[RyderWest]

A likely butterfly in the event of the North African campaign ending earlier is that the Tiger won't be encountered earlier. That will be interesting.

 

[MattII]

A likely butterfly in the event of the North African campaign ending earlier is that the Tiger won't be encountered earlier. That will be interesting.

You don't have to see something to guess something like it is coming. Design work on the 17-pounder started in 1941, and was more-or-less completed by the end of 1941.

Interestingly in this, Germany might end up facing 6-pounder Valiants in Russia, before they face them in North Africa.

 

[Draconis]

A likely butterfly in the event of the North African campaign ending earlier is that the Tiger won't be encountered earlier. That will be interesting.

Won't the British receive any intelligence on the new German tanks from the Soviets?