Russians adopt Islam as state religion instead of Eastern Orthodox

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My only concern is that potentially (with a late enough POD), having the capital in Kiev butterflies Rus adopting Islam, and conversely having Muslim Rus probably butterflies Kiev.

Kiev (as a city, not as the villages that predated it or the Khazar outpost), grew out specifically out of the need to Dniepr trade going. Which goes to Bulgaria and Constantinople. Which were Christian, even when Kiev was in its infancy.

There are two ways that I can see: have a Muslim Constantinople very early (which changes oh so much), or have Constantinople inaccessible to Rus trade (perhaps blocked off Magyars or Pechenegs or whoever), leaving only the Volga route open (and even there, the Khazars are a consideration as well).

 

[Nivek]

The issue with Alcohol with islam(to close and try to rerail the thread) is that Islam forbid more going drunk as a festive or social way, that is a big no-no, because drunk people make stupid action and would bring shame all his family and society, thus drink one or other little sip or cup will be fine, drink to embriagated is a sin, you must be mental lucid to knew what are you doing.

So Wine and other fermented drinks was even allowed just in small doses, specially when other drinks were not available(water was sparse or not safe enough)

 

[GeneralInTheShell]

All of you here who are saying that alcohol is compatible with islam surprise me. I thought one of the strongest tenets of islam was the ban on alcohol. it just surprises me the suggestion it can be handwaved away. From what I understand, the prohibition of alcohol exists in several places in the koran.

How would it be justified that a religion banning alcohol "allows" certain ethnic group to drink?

The severity of the ban on alcohol really depends on who it interpreting the ban. The first reference to alcohol is just that it has some benefits but it has more negatives. Then there is the ban on getting drunk and being intoxicated at the Mosque. Finally after an incident in Medina where a feud that Mohammad had helped settle flared up against when the two parties got drunk the passage about banning alcohol comes up. But even then it doesn't ban alcohol, or more specifically wine. This has always been a loophole that various ethnic groups and sects of Islam have used justify their consumption of alcohol. I know several Shia Iranians who freely drink beer and don't see a problem with it, hell despite Iran's official ban on alcohol and its ultra religious government it's still the third largest consumer of alcoholic beverages in the Middle East.

as others have pointed out, the main obstetrical to getting a Muslim Russia is East Roman domination of trade not alcohol.

 

[Zlorfik]

The point about alcohol is painfully irrelevant
The Egyptians and Syrians were hardly paragons of sobriety prior to Islam

The POD would have to be deeper than Vladimir's reign, and probably have to do with the Volga/Caspian trade being more important than the Black Sea trade, something that was basically just memory by the 10th c.

This a good idea, and it's actually more plausible than you might think.
Svyatoslav (Vladimir's dad) had destroyed Khazaria and sacked their capital Atil, a major caspian trade center.

Our POD could be Svyatoslav choosing not to focus on bulgaria/europe in general, but instead on making a permanent conquest of the lower don-lower volga area

With a little luck this also butterflies away his untimely death, leaving him time to consolidate the new territory and establish a proper succession.
In OTL, he moved his capital to the Danube to watch over his new conquests. ITTL, he chooses Atil or perhaps founds some place near the site of OTL Saray

The slavs gradually settle the area and establish strong trade links with the caspian powers.
From then on, conversion proceeds as in OTL except under caspian muslim, not black sea christian, influence

Of course, it'll help to also decrease byzantine influence.
Say, the byzantines send pechenegs to destroy kiev in retaliation for rus raids

 

[funnyhat]

The point about alcohol is painfully irrelevant
The Egyptians and Syrians were hardly paragons of sobriety prior to Islam

But they were conquered by the Arabs - they didn't have a choice over what their new state religion would be. Russia, conversely, chose its state religion.

(That said, I doubt that alcohol consumption was actually a serious factor in the decision.)

 

[Zlorfik]

The bashkortostanis had alcohol from early on (kumys) and they converted to islam of their own volition.
If we consider the mentioned moroccans, andalusis and such, we see that islam can be flexible about this

 

[Sonichu]

While it is true that many Muslims drink alcoholic beverages, and that a heavy drinking country could convert to Islam, Islam as a general tendency does frown upon alcohol and drunkenness to an extent that I think many people are overlooking too easily. According to the WHO, Russia drinks something on the order of 15 times more alcohol per capita than Algeria. Turkey, despite its fame as a wine-imbibing Muslim country, only drinks 2 liters of alcohol per capita in a given year, which indicates a very low rate of alcohol consumption compared to America or Western Europe (let alone Eastern Europe).

There is, I think, a middle ground. It's too simplistic to say "Well, some Muslims drink alcohol so end of discussion". Islam as generally interpreted by most people has views on alcohol ranging from disapproval to a total ban - Muslims that do drink often drink only certain types of beverages and view inebriation and drunken behavior in far worse a light than do Christians and Jews. Again, I'm not saying that Russians couldn't be Muslims who drink - but as was the case with many of the first Muslim converts in the steppes, those Russian Muslims who get habitually drunk are probably going to be lax about a lot of other Islamic commandments initially.

I would generally agree, also, that there are more important considerations than alcohol when it comes to rulers converting to Islam. I'm sure if there was a political or economic incentive to do so, Russians would find a way to accommodate their drinking habits into a Muslim lifestyle, or just stop/reduce their drinking. It's just that some people seem to be saying, "there are some Muslims who drink, therefore as a general rule, drinking isn't really problematic in Islam", which is disingenuous. Many, many Muslims believe that people should abstain from alcohol altogether, and the rest almost universally believe in certain restrictions and admonishments on what and how you can drink even if they don't advocate a blanket ban.

 

[Gigachad3k]

It's not justified, it's just that Muslims are humans, and like all humans, they break the rules sometimes. And in the case of the alcohol rules, Muslims have broken the rules plenty of times. Alcohol prohibition is not exactly central to most Muslims' understanding of Islam, after all. It's not nearly as important as the concepts of monotheism and submission to God that are truly central to Islam. Also, this wouldn't be special for Russians; Muslims are probably drinking in the world somewhere right now. They drink wine in Algeria and Morocco for example, and there's a Turkish drink called raki. Lastly, referencing the Qur'an, you should note that it is mentioned that there will be rivers of wine in heaven, so it's not as clear cut as you think.



I mean the Volga Bulgars who were contemporary with Vladimir.



Or they could keep drinking and be Muslim, like Moroccans and Algerians do with wine, or Turks do with raki.

Albanians and Bosnians Drink Alcohol(Raki, Wines and Beers) too

Have heard of Bira I Pejes(Beer of Peja) an Albanian Beer Drink

and Raki Skenderbeu an Albanian Raki Drink

and Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey is Popular in Albania

Persians Drink Alcohol too

 

[Malta]

Babur of the Mughal Dynasty drank alcohol. A lot of it until late in his life when he turned a leaf.

Plus, when did Russians become synonymous with dunkards? Would this POD predate and butterfly that?

Besides with drinking it is all about moderation.

 

[Gigachad3k]

If Russia Adopt Islam

Russians will not Eat Pork

Russians would not Drink Alcohol or Rarely would have Drink

Circassian and Chechenian Genocide would have been Butterflied

Russian Revolution would have been Butterflied

WW1, WW2, Cold War, Holocaust, Nazism, Communism and Fascism would have been Butterflied

Chechnya War would have been Butterflied too

 

[Zlorfik]

If Russia Adopt Islam

Russians will not Eat Pork

Russians would not Drink Alcohol or Rarely would have Drink

Circassian and Chechenian Genocide would have been Butterflied

Russian Revolution would have been Butterflied

WW1, WW2, Cold War, Holocaust, Nazism, Communism and Fascism would have been Butterflied

Chechnya War would have been Butterflied too

many other horrors would've been butterflied in to replace 'em