Red Army stops at the Curzon Line 1920

There has been much discussion here about "what if the Soviets had conquered Poland in 1920?" but AFAIK relatively little about what would have happened if in July the Bolsheviks, having driven the Poles from Ukraine and Belarus, would have stopped at the Curzon Line (which was roughly the dividing line between Poles on the one hand and Ukrainians and Belarusans on the other) and announced that it was not their intention to spread Bolshevism into ethnic Poland through use of the Red Army.

This is an unlikely but not impossible scenario. Both Trotsky and Stalin seem to have had serious reservations about changing the hitherto defensive war into an offensive one:

"[After repulsing Pilsudski's invasion the] question arose as to what the Bolsheviks should do next, and Trotsky was reputed to have opposed making an offensive war against Poland. Certainly he had trepidations. They seem to have been military rather than political in nature. He knew how tired his Red Army had become; he doubted it had the energy and material resources for an invasion. Stalin who was afraid that Wrangel in Crimea might exploit the strategic situation, adopted the same position. Other leading Bolsheviks were even more forthright in opposing the invasion of Poland. Radek was notably sceptical that Polish workers would resist the claims of patriotism. But Lenin was insistent on pressing over the Polish border and trying to take Warsaw; and once Lenin had made this decisionTrotsky was as determined as Lenin to see it through..." Robert Service, *Trotsky: A Biography* (Harvard University Press 2009), p. 272. http://books.google.com/books?id=mbD8jRUdAjsC&pg=PA272

Some have doubted that Trotsky was opposed to carrying the war on to Polish soil, but Richard Pipes, not exactly an admirer of Trotsky, has defended him on this point: "Several historians have questioned whether Trotsky really opposed the invasion of Poland as he later claimed...But the documents cited against him date from August 1920, when the matter had long since been decided, and Trotsky, having fallen in line like a good Bolshevik, naturally desired a quick and decisive victory." *Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime*, pp. 182-3. https://books.google.com/books?id=pfNEY931UzYC&pg=PA182

FWIW, subsequently, after the invasion had failed, Trotsky still defended it at the Ninth Party Conference on September 22, on the ground that the Politburo had been duty-bound to test whether European socialist revolution could be achieved (Service, *Trotsky: A Biography,* p. 277):

"Why didn't we enter Warsaw? Because, comrades, the enterprise was not so very simple. We proceeded that way for the reason contained in the report by comrade Lenin. The reason was serious enough and now, looking back and evaluating whether it was a mistake, it's possible to answer in the form of a question: were the July Days [of 1917] or the Revolution of 1905 mistakes or were they not? What was involved was a big attempt to probe the enemy. Nobody would be able to indicate in advance where this attempt should be halted, and it can be said that this experience offers ground for a happier experience."

(I very often find a purely *incidental* remark more interesting than the main point a speaker or writer makes, and this is an excellent example. Lenin and Trotsky always denied that they meant to seize power violently in July 1917--but here, as Service notes on p. 175, Trotsky behind closed doors was admitting "that the Bolsheviks and Interdistricters had been using the trouble in Petrograd as a way of 'probing' the possibility of seizing power. Not for several decades, by when he was long dead, were his words allowed into print.")

Trotsky went on to blame Stalin: "What I have to say is that comrade Stalin undermined me and the Central Committee." According to Service, "Lenin took Trotsky's side and Stalin felt so humiliated that he demanded the right of reply the next day, when he pointed out that he had expressed doubts about the campaign even before it had started." http://books.google.com/books?id=mbD8jRUdAjsC&pg=PA277

Anyway, let's suppose that Lenin--and admittedly this is unlikely, given his desire to make contact between the Red Army and Germany to facilitate revolution in Germany--listens to the Bolshevik skeptics (whether or not Trotsky was really one of them). The Soviet government announces that theRed Army is stopping at the Curzon Line. Consequences (apart from the fact that Wrangel is presumably defeated a little earlier)?

(1) With the Curzon Line as its eastern border, Poland is going to be much smaller than it was in the interwar period in OTL and also much smaller than it is today (for while its eastern border will be about the same as it is today, [1] it will lack the western and northern territories it gained from Germany after World War II). To be sure, the exclusion of many Ukrainians, Belarusans, Jews, and Lithuanians will to some extent make Poland's minority problems less serious (though what remains of Poland will by no means be totally ethnically homogeneous) but I doubt if very many Poles will be consoled by this.

(2) There will be a common Soviet-Czechoslovak border, which could have some effect on the 1938 crisis, as discussed at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.history.what-if/AiR0z92LvK0/kExGo8kkns0J

(3) Assuming that world events otherwise proceed much as they did in OTL--for example, that the existence of a common Soviet-Czechoslovak border makes no difference at Munich--in 1939 Hitler will not be able to offer Stalin much more of Poland than he already has. What difference, if any, will that make? Also, will Poles be more open to an offer by Hitler to make concessions to Germany on Danzig and the "Corridor" in return for promised territory in the East? (Poland might have more desire for eastward expansion in this ATL than in OTL but the fundamental problem with such a deal is still there--it will force Poland to join Germany in a war against the Soviet Union in which, to put it mildly, victory is not guaranteed, and where even if the USSR is defeated, the chances of Hitler keeping his promises to the Poles are negligible.)

(4) What happens to internal politics in Poland, given that Pilsudski's military leadership will presumably be less respected than in OTL?

(5) Almost all Ukrainians and Belarusans [2] will come under Soviet rule. This gives Ukrainian nationalism less chance to develop (in OTL it took root in eastern Poland both in spite of and because of Polish repression, and caused the Soviets considerable difficulties in Western Ukraine during and after World War II). And the Uniate Church is crushed sooner than in OTL. Also, still more Ukrainians than in OTL will die in the 1933 famine.

OTOH, it can be argued that the existence of a large Ukrainian community in Poland helped the Soviet Ukrainians during the 1920's because one of the justifications of "Ukrainization" was that it was necessary to give the Ukrainians of Poland a positive image of the Soviet Ukraine:

"It is interesting to note that even during the debates on Ukrainization in the Central Executive Committee of the USSR, Ienukidze, the secretary of the Committee, expressed the sincere hope that other non-Russian peoples would not be as impatient as the Ukraine to introduce their native languages into official use, and was persuaded in favor of Ukrainization by the argument that such a policy was good not intrinsically but for the purposes of propaganda aimed primarily at Ukrainians living in Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Rumania." George Luckyj, *Literary Politics in the Soviet Ukraine, 1917-1934,* p. 45 http://books.google.com/books?id=CuLpivm5lDsC&pg=PA45

But I am not sure how much weight to assign this, since Ukrainization was part of a general policy of indigenization (Korenizatsiya) applied to many other peoples of the USSR in the 1920s (and abandoned by Stalin in the next decade).

(6) The experience of loss in the battle for Warsaw did have some sobering effect on the Bolsheviks. Is it conceivable that without this experience they might be more aggressive elsewhere (e.g., with respect to the Baltic states)?

Any other thoughts?

[1] Assuming that the Curzon Line of which we are speaking is "Line A." "Line B" would at least have let Poland keep Lwow and the nearby oil fields. Unfortunately, the Curzon note of July 11, 1920 created confusion because "the line of actual hostilities, to which Grabski had consented, and Line A...were simultaneously indicated as the cease-fire line. The second would place all of eastern Galicia outside of Poland. Whether it was a mistake or an underhanded move by the Foreign Office may never be known, but the December 8 line extended to Eastern Galicia entered history under the name of the Curzon Line. More would be heard about it in the years to come..." http://books.google.com/books?id=_XaFaNshCrkC&pg=PA152

[2] Yes, there will be some Ukrainians in Romania (Bukovina and parts of Bessarabia) and Czechoslovakia (Subcarpathian Rus) and in the Lemko territory of Poland, and some Belarusans in even this truncated Poland and in Lithuania. But on the whole, Ukrainian and Belarusan ethnolinguistic territory will be overwhelmingly in the USSR.
 

thaddeus

Donor
There has been much discussion here about "what if the Soviets had conquered Poland in 1920?" but AFAIK relatively little about what would have happened if in July the Bolsheviks, having driven the Poles from Ukraine and Belarus, would have stopped at the Curzon Line

There will be a common Soviet-Czechoslovak border, which could have some effect on the 1938 crisis

Assuming that world events otherwise proceed much as they did in OTL--for example, that the existence of a common Soviet-Czechoslovak border makes no difference at Munich--in 1939 Hitler will not be able to offer Stalin much more of Poland than he already has. What difference, if any, will that make? Also, will Poles be more open to an offer by Hitler to make concessions to Germany on Danzig and the "Corridor" in return for promised territory in the East?

they have common interest with Germany and Hungary that Czechoslovakia does not become Soviet Corridor?

any deal with Soviets might be over Romania instead of Poland?
 
I wonder if the quote function works the way it did on the previous version of the board, or if I'm in for a surprise...


(1) In this timeline Poland will be much more homogenous. In OTL minorities made up 1/3 of the population, but here it will only be about 1/10.

(3) Stalin definitely won't object to being offered more Polish lands then in OTL. The original Ribbentrop-Molotov line went along the Vistula. So in this timeline the German-Soviet pact might grant the OTL General Government to the USSR.

Poland won't like the idea of submitting to Germany, and the cons you mention are valid ones. OTOH in this timeline Poland will be in a worse position to defy Hitler. The eastern territories were relatively poor and had little industry and natural resources but they still contained the Galician oilfields, universities providing technical expertise (although many of those experts may end up emigrating so these losses might be reduced) and 1/3 of the population. So in this timeline Poland's army will be weaker then in OTL. And with only half of its OTL territory Poland's strategic position will be worse. The last possible line of defense will be the Vistula, much harder to defend then the "Romanian bridgehead" of OTL. Perception of the Soviet threat will also be different. Unlike in OTL the USSR will contain large areas with Polish majorities which Poland will regard as rightfully Polish, so the treatment of the Poles in the USSR (numbering about 4-5 million, although some will definitely flee west of the Curzon Line) will be observed with much more attention. So Poland might do as Czechoslovakia did in OTL.

(4) In OTL the nationalists were the strongest political group. Without the many minorities their position will be stronger, perhaps strong enough to form more stable governments leading to a stabilization of the democratic system. A coup by Piłsudski is also much less probable. It's debatable if he even intended to take power in 1926 before his military demonstration escalated. In this timeline he will be aware that he is disgraced and lacks the authority needed for authoritarian rule. So TTL's Poland might remain democratic and pursue more right-wing policies then in OTL. (Note: this does not imply fascism. It can be very misleading to assume that fascism was somehow a natural tendency all across interwar Europe.)

(5) Poland's policies at their most repressive were very delicate compared to what the NKVD will have in store for the Ukrainians of East Galicia and Volhynia in this timeline. The organizations which emerged in 1920-1939 won't be allowed to form in the first place, so the Soviets will have nothing exceptional to suppress. The western part of the Ukrainian SSR will also be a border province so Soviet repressions will be particularly intense there.

(6) Probably. I don't think Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia will survive past 1921, and Bessarabia provides an excuse for a war against Romania.
 
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(6) Probably. I don't think Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia will survive past 1921, and Bessarabia provides an excuse for a war against Romania.

Ahem. The Soviets had already made peace with the Estonians in February 1920, and with the Latvians in early July 1920. IOTL they were also in discussions with the Lithuanians, as well as the Finns, and would arrive at a deal with the Lithuanians in August and with the Finns in October.

Generally speaking, I am very sceptical about the Soviet government coming back to renege these deals and restarting war with the Baltic states. Apparently, at this point in time, the Soviet government IOTL saw a point in trying to pacify their borders after many very costly years of war. ITTL the general internal conditions in Russia and Ukraine would not be, could not be significantly better than they were IOTL. By not going after Poland, the Soviet state stands a good chance for consolidation and solving its internal problems in 1920-21. And God knows it had enough internal problems of its own at this time, from food shortages to various smaller and bigger insurrections, like the Kronstadt rebellion to just give a small example. Let's also remember that if the Soviets now break the deals they have already made with the Estonians and Latvians, where they recognized those nations' independence "in perpetuity", it would be a strong argument in all the nations that are anti-Bolshevik in the first place to increasingly see Soviet Russia as a "mad dog nation" that can't be trusted or reasoned with. This would be bound to have an effect on the effort of the Soviet nation to legitimize itself in the international arena in the 1920s.
 
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Ahem. The Soviets had already made peace with the Estonians in February 1920, and with the Latvians in early July 1920. IOTL they were also in discussions with the Lithuanians, as well as the Finns, and would arrive at a deal with the Lithuanians in August and with the Finns in October.

Generally speaking, I am very sceptical about the Soviet government coming back to renege these deals and restarting war with the Baltic states. Apparently, at this point in time, the Soviet government IOTL saw a point in trying to pacify their borders after many very costly years of war. ITTL the general internal conditions in Russia and Ukraine would not be, could not be significantly better than they were IOTL. By not going after Poland, the Soviet state stands a good chance for consolidation and solving its internal problems in 1920-21. And God knows it had enough internal problems of its own at this time, from food shortages to various smaller and bigger insurrections, like the Kronstadt rebellion to just give a small example. Let's also remember that if the Soviets now break the deals they have already made with the Estonians and Latvians, where they recognized those nations' independence "in perpetuity", it would be a strong argument in all the nations that are anti-Bolshevik in the first place to increasingly see Soviet Russia as a "mad dog nation" that can't be trusted or reasoned with. This would be bound to have an effect on the effort of the Soviet nation to legitimize itself in the international arena in the 1920s.

In 1920 the Soviets signed a peace with Georgia, recognizing its independence and promising to "refrain from any kind of interference in the affairs of Georgia", and attacked it a few months afterwards. To the best of my knowledge this did not cause any significant reaction in the west, which had grown accustomed to the idea that the Baltics or Georgia had been part of "Russia". So the conquest of the Baltics might even be seen as a desireable return to the natural order of things in many circles. Perhaps Little Green Men (or rather Little Red Men) like the ones who suddenly appeared in Ukraine in 2014 would be used as a fig leaf for undermining Baltic independence. That concept is not Putin's invention, but is much older.

On the other hand, the PoD may mean that the Soviets are a bit less keen on spreading the revolution then in OTL. In that case, it looks like Georgia and Armenia also remain independent. What would be the consequences of that?
 
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In 1920 the Soviets signed a peace with Georgia, recognizing its independence and promising to "refrain from any kind of interference in the affairs of Georgia", and attacked it a few months afterwards. To the best of my knowledge this did not cause any significant reaction in the west, which had grown accustomed to the idea that the Baltics or Georgia had been part of "Russia". So the conquest of the Baltics might even be seen as a desireable return to the natural order of things in many circles. Perhaps Little Green Men (or rather Little Red Men) like the ones who suddenly appeared in Ukraine in 2014 would be used as a fig leaf for undermining Baltic independence. That concept is not Putin's invention, but is much older.

On the other hand, the PoD may mean that the Soviets are a bit less keen on spreading the revolution then in OTL. In that case, it looks like Georgia and Armenia also remain independent. What would be the consequences of that?

It is good to note that the 1920 Treaty of Moscow with Georgia included clauses that limited Georgian independence and gave special rights to Soviet Russia and the revolutionaries in Georgia, ones that were criticized already at the time. And the implications of these clauses were then used, in part, by the Soviets to conquer Georgia in 1921. The treaties the Soviets signed with Estonia and Latvia did not include such limitations to these nations' sovereignty, as far as I can see. So it is a good question to ask if the Soviets really made the peace with heavily Communist-influenced Georgia in good faith in the same way as it completed the deals with the Baltics and Finland, in each of which the revolutionaries had been more strongly marginalized by the nationalist forces. We might well claim that the Treaty of Moscow already included the seeds of the downfall of the internally divided nascent Georgian state, as it had to in its weakness accept such terms the Baltics and the Finns did not have to make.

This is at least my reading on the matter, and it might mean that the fate of Georgia was a somewhat of a special case, not to be necessarily seen as a model for the Baltics or Finland ITTL.

As to the consequences of Georgia and Armenia remaining independent, I can't really say offhand. But if all these small nations gain their independence, and keep it, and Poland is not attacked by the Soviets, either, it might help a bit for the Soviet state to get some sympathy abroad. It is seen as a "weak Russia", for losing Russia's fringe areas, but at least it is less seen as a blood-thirsty nation bent on a revolutionary campaign to take over eastern Europe. In terms of propaganda, a more positive image could help Soviet Russia to get more support and goodwill among the European nations, and it might help in the Moscow-aligned far left in gaining the support of the moderate left. This is of course also a matter of political doctrine and rhetoric, and I can well see Moscow pissing this goodwill to the wind by adhering to a hostile, revolutionary line also in its exported propaganda and policy.
 
It is good to note that the 1920 Treaty of Moscow with Georgia included clauses that limited Georgian independence and gave special rights to Soviet Russia and the revolutionaries in Georgia, ones that were criticized already at the time. And the implications of these clauses were then used, in part, by the Soviets to conquer Georgia in 1921. The treaties the Soviets signed with Estonia and Latvia did not include such limitations to these nations' sovereignty, as far as I can see. So it is a good question to ask if the Soviets really made the peace with heavily Communist-influenced Georgia in good faith in the same way as it completed the deals with the Baltics and Finland, in each of which the revolutionaries had been more strongly marginalized by the nationalist forces. We might well claim that the Treaty of Moscow already included the seeds of the downfall of the internally divided nascent Georgian state, as it had to in its weakness accept such terms the Baltics and the Finns did not have to make.

This is at least my reading on the matter, and it might mean that the fate of Georgia was a somewhat of a special case, not to be necessarily seen as a model for the Baltics or Finland ITTL.

Just remembered that I hadn't checked on this thread since my last post. According to Wikipedia Moscow accused Georgia of supporting anti-Soviet activity in the Caucasus, and made its final invasion under the pretext of assisting peasants' and workers' rebellions. (Yes, I know, Wikipedia, but ). Such excuses are easy to manufacture at will. My opinion is that all peaces the Bolsheviks made with smaller countries during that period were purely tactical. In time it was decided in Moscow that it was best to finish fighting for a while, and the treaties which were in existence got to stay, but only because breaking them and opening up new fronts came to be seen as inconvenient for now. I suspect that for some reason or other the Bolsheviks felt stronger in their negotiations with Georgia then with the Balts. The number of Baltic States and their closeness to the large, undefeated Polish Army may have caused more caution.
 
Just remembered that I hadn't checked on this thread since my last post. According to Wikipedia Moscow accused Georgia of supporting anti-Soviet activity in the Caucasus, and made its final invasion under the pretext of assisting peasants' and workers' rebellions. (Yes, I know, Wikipedia, but ). Such excuses are easy to manufacture at will. My opinion is that all peaces the Bolsheviks made with smaller countries during that period were purely tactical. In time it was decided in Moscow that it was best to finish fighting for a while, and the treaties which were in existence got to stay, but only because breaking them and opening up new fronts came to be seen as inconvenient for now. I suspect that for some reason or other the Bolsheviks felt stronger in their negotiations with Georgia then with the Balts. The number of Baltic States and their closeness to the large, undefeated Polish Army may have caused more caution.

I'd agree that all such deals the Bolsheviks made in the early years were probably, to a degree, merely tactical. But it seems to me that the deal the Georgians got was made when the Georgian government that made it was not the lord of its own house in the way the Finnish and Baltic governments were, and that was reflected in the way it gave special rights to Bolshevik Russia and then in the way how the Bolsheviks took Georgia very shortly after the deal. There were attempts towards Bolshevik subversion and local plots to take power that would be then supported by Russia in Finland and the Baltics in the early 20s, as well, but when that happened, the anti-Bolshevik forces in those nations were strong enough to stop them. So what happened in Georgia could have been the road Finland and the Baltics might have taken if they were more internally divided than IOTL, I'd say. Remember that Soviet Russia/USSR was still weak and divided itself in those years, so if it seemed these small states were internally strong and not to be easily divided and ruled, then they might well have been deemed too expensive and difficult to conquer. There was also something to be said for bona fide home-grown rebellions, even if externally sponsored, from a propaganda as well as from a military POV. If it was only a pretext, like later in the Winter War, it might lead to unfortunate humiliations one way or the other.

I have often toyed with the idea that if Finland was spared a civil war in 1918 and the revolutionary left was not cowed by the brutal White victory, the nascent, very unstable and divided Finnish republic might have well fallen to the Bolsheviks in the 20s or 30s. But the civil war cleared the internal situation and made the ruling parties strong enough to avoid this, albeit at a great human cost. Then again, being joined into the Soviet state would have meant that the human cost would not have been avoided entirely, only delayed.
 
Just remembered that I hadn't checked on this thread since my last post. According to Wikipedia Moscow accused Georgia of supporting anti-Soviet activity in the Caucasus, and made its final invasion under the pretext of assisting peasants' and workers' rebellions. (Yes, I know, Wikipedia, but ). Such excuses are easy to manufacture at will. My opinion is that all peaces the Bolsheviks made with smaller countries during that period were purely tactical. In time it was decided in Moscow that it was best to finish fighting for a while, and the treaties which were in existence got to stay, but only because breaking them and opening up new fronts came to be seen as inconvenient for now. I suspect that for some reason or other the Bolsheviks felt stronger in their negotiations with Georgia then with the Balts. The number of Baltic States and their closeness to the large, undefeated Polish Army may have caused more caution.

I think there are two special features to remember with respect to Georgia:

(1) Unlike other areas of the Russian Empire that had won independence, Georgia was headed not by local nationalists but by people like Zhordania who had taken an active role in *all-Russian* social democracy; they had not favored Georgian independence, and had only decided on it because they believed that the Russian Civil War had left them no choice. In that sense, allowing Georgian independence would have been a more painful decision--and not only for Stalin though obviously especially for him--than allowing it for, say, the Baltic states; it would be an admission of the Bolsheviks that they had not *completely* prevailed over the Mensheviks. Besides, some prominent European Social Democrats had visited Georgia and had praised its socialism as far superior to the brutal Bolshevik variety. This had two conflicting effects on the Soviets; on the one hand, it suggested that leaving Georgia alone might be necessary if they wanted to establish a united front with European Social Democrats. OTOH, one can imagine how the sight of "renegade Kautsky" visiting and praising Georgia (see http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1921/georgia/index.htm for Kautsky's later book about his impressions) would enrage the Bolsheviks and redouble their determination to do away with Georgia as an alternative model of socialism.

(2) Apparently a turning point in Lenin's decision-making about Georgia --originally he had been dubious about Stalin and Ordzhonikidze's proposals for an invasion--came in January 1921 when "Krasin reported a statement made to him by Lloyd George to the effect that Great Britain considered the entire Caucasus within the Soviet sphere of influence and contemplated no intervention there." Richard Pipes, *The Formation of the Soviet Union* (1964 ed.), p. 237. https://books.google.com/books?id=smDy35onbtAC&pg=PA237 (I do not think that Lloyd George could realistically threaten British military intervention to save Georgia by this time; British public opinion would not support such intervention. But I wonder if it wold have made a difference had he made it clear that the diplomatic and economic ties the Soviets wanted with Britain were contingent on leaving Georgia alone.) Moreover, Kemalist Turkey also approved of the invasion, and got territorial concessions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Kars
 
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