Realistic First Contact Scenarios

Glad we have so many diseases on our filthy Planet.

Mongols come to Europe = 40 Million People die from Plague
Europeans come to the Americas = 20 Million people die of smallpox

Aliens come to Earth = Pick one of the 2 817 Diseases and see if they survive them all :D

That said, is it possible we'd see invasive alien micro-species do any damage? Or, for that matter, would our physiology just be too different to have any effect either way?
 

Mathuen

Banned
Is it possible that we are the most advanced pre-singularity civilization in the galaxy?

I remember reading up on the apes and angels hypothesis which states that since the window of technological advancement from the revolution to hyperadvancment is extremely small compared to the amount of time a planet spends as holding early sentient or non-sentient life forms and the amount of time a species would spend as post-singularity there is most likely a small number of species within our technological realm that being 1800-2800 (I felt a thousand years would be good for this) technology.

Now that's across the universe and then one has to put in the fact that the universe is 14 billion years old allowing for the existence of many post-singularity and (cough) ascended beings. When this is all put together you get the most common species in our galaxy (excluding post-singularity) being non-sentient and early sentient. With some of the most advanced late sentient beings having the technology of ancient Egypt.

If this is the case then that would make Humanity the most advanced (or one of the most advanced) pre-singularity species in the milky way!

Which would mean that if anyone were to initiate first contact it would probably be us.

I hope i'm not repeating anything that someone just said.
 

Krall

Banned
Glad we have so many diseases on our filthy Planet.

Mongols come to Europe = 40 Million People die from Plague
Europeans come to the Americas = 20 Million people die of smallpox

Aliens come to Earth = Pick one of the 2 817 Diseases and see if they survive them all :D

Of course - being a totally alien species with a totally different biology - it's highly unlikely that any of our diseases will actually affect them at all, and vice verse.
 
Of course - being a totally alien species with a totally different biology - it's highly unlikely that any of our diseases will actually affect them at all, and vice verse.
Exactly. We don't get sick from fish germs and they're far more closely related to us than aliens would be.
 
If this is the case then that would make Humanity the most advanced (or one of the most advanced) pre-singularity species in the milky way!

Which would mean that if anyone were to initiate first contact it would probably be us.

I hope i'm not repeating anything that someone just said.

Which is assuming post-singularity species are uninterested in saying hi.

I recall another discussion (perhaps over at rec.arts.sf-written) where the scenario was put forth that it's not so much intelligence as scientific thinking is rare: most intelligent species last for thousands or millions of years without every getting beyond the cut-and-try steam engine due to not developing a genuinely scientific outlook before they are eventually knocked down to hunter-gatherers again by some geological/climate disaster or other. In this scenario, we're the bringers of science! to the rest of the Galaxy...of course, giving a hand up to other races is a problem, since many of them are simply better at diplomacy or con-jobs or cooperation since they've been living in cities (even if made of clay) for so, so, much longer than we have...

Bruce
 

Mathuen

Banned
Which is assuming post-singularity species are uninterested in saying hi.

You have a good point... although if I was the mass-consciousness of some post-singularity species I probably wouldn't make contact with us. I wouldn't want to contaminate the warm fur-creatures' culture and I'd do whatever it is I do soundly knowing that they have an 87.35121659% chance of working out their problems like my species did.

I recall another discussion (perhaps over at rec.arts.sf-written) where the scenario was put forth that it's not so much intelligence as scientific thinking is rare: most intelligent species last for thousands or millions of years without every getting beyond the cut-and-try steam engine due to not developing a genuinely scientific outlook before they are eventually knocked down to hunter-gatherers again by some geological/climate disaster or other. In this scenario, we're the bringers of science! to the rest of the Galaxy...of course, giving a hand up to other races is a problem, since many of them are simply better at diplomacy or con-jobs or cooperation since they've been living in cities (even if made of clay) for so, so, much longer than we have...

Bruce

Serious: Interesting, if you remember where that discussion is I would be glad to know! The development of the scientific process seems so natural and yet when you think about it our species went so long without it that it isn't out of the realm of possibility that entire planets might never develop it. Albeit the second part of your statement assumes that said species might have more advanced diplomatic skills or something in "substitute" for science. They might just be stagnant civilizations. Well, substitute isn't a good word, but I think you know what I mean.

This just in! Steampunk is for people who can't do science! :D

Why would we give them our GLORIOUS SCIENCE then? They don't deserve space Ipads! I'd rather we ignore/conquer/vassalize them. I'd probably ignore, if not that then vassalize, if not that then maybe make a rather pleasant first contact, if not that then conquer.

Conquest! Watch their clay cities fall to my kinetic weapons and their oceans boiled by my focused microwave emitters! Their skies darkened by my endless and unstoppable fleet containing their worst nightmares and the winds reverberating with their endless screaming until all is silence!!!!

MWAHAHAHAHA!!

DTA.png
 
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Aperture Science --
We do what we must, because we can
For the good of all of us,
Except the ones who are dead...

But there's no sense crying over every mistake.
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
And the Science gets done.
And you make a neat gun.
For the people who are still alive.:p
 
If they have war in mind they are definitely going to win. If they have the technology to transport an army all the way from another star then they have the technology to win extremely easily.
 
Albeit the second part of your statement assumes that said species might have more advanced diplomatic skills or something in "substitute" for science. They might just be stagnant civilizations.


Hm - I don't think you could get "stagnation" on a planetary scale - low-tech global empires don't strike me as very stable.

This just in! Steampunk is for people who can't do science! :D

And this is news? :D

Conquest! Watch their clay cities fall to my kinetic weapons and their oceans boiled by my focused microwave emitters! Their skies darkened by my endless and unstoppable fleet containing their worst nightmares and the winds reverberating with their endless screaming until all is silence!!!!

MWAHAHAHAHA!!

Ok, you're off the list to borrow the keys to the Death Star... :)

Bruce
 
If they have war in mind they are definitely going to win. If they have the technology to transport an army all the way from another star then they have the technology to win extremely easily.

It's not just a question of who beats whom, but whether waging a war in the first place is worth the cost -- as I pointed out earlier, given humanity's capacity to destroy our planet's life destroying capabilities with our military technology, the aliens would literally get nothing for their effort, making the travels an utter waste of epic proportions...
 
Kevvy2010, are you trying to troll this thread?

Jabba isn't particularly likely physically (legs and functional hands are useful for an intelligent life form): but really, there are a lot of good artists and science writers who have tried to picture genuinely alien aliens which work. Using the movies as an argument vs alien aliens is sorta like using movie pirates as an argument against the existence of actual pirates. The odds of our evolutionary development being followed is ridiculously unlikely, unless you believe that evolution follows some sort of pre-destined arrangement. We are a series of evolutionary accidents: the Earth's environment can and has sustained body plans very different indeed from ours.

Thinking that our design is the only "working model" for a tool-making intelligence is simply a failure of imagination. Oh, the _basics_ (upright position, eyes, something like hands) are useful enough that they well might be duplicated elesewhere, but that's no reason to believe the more "humanoid" aliens will look as much like us as this guy:

predator.jpg


(Corrupt local geniuses? Props to Pizzarro and Cortez, but I'm not sure that's a good analogy: it was disease which destroyed the native Americans. We're less likely to catch something off aliens than from a carrot).

There's three ways we're likely to physically run into aliens. One, they come here before we develop interstellar travel. In that case they are going to be way advanced: there is no way interstellar travel is easy. Two, we go to another solar system and they are the primitive ones. Three, we both have interstellar travel: in that case who is more advanced is a coin-flip, but given the age of the galaxy, the odds we will just be a few decades apart is poor.

I suspect any race that has been round long enough to make interstellar travel a regular thing will have learned control over its own worst impulses. After all, we're generally less mutually brutal people in 2011 than we were in the 19th century, and we have barely started to master our own brain chemistry and haven't really developed a real science of behavioral self-training.

OTOH, getting along with _each other_ isn't necessarily the same as Playing Nicely with Others. A race might eliminate it's tendency to de-*humanize members of its own species but retain an evolutionary hostility to aliens which look like birds or upright, naked, apes. :D Or, in a universe where planet-killing weapons are cheap and easy to make, it might be simply the Vulcan-logical thing to make sure other species aren't wandering around out there without close supervisions. Or the aliens could be an inherently predatorial species or ominicidal Chinese Rooms (see Watts).

Still, it is probably a decent bet to make that advanced aliens and future humans won't be as inherently assholish in the face of the other as we have been in the past: the trouble will be that what they or we think of as "civilized" ways of treating less developed races may be nontheless very unpleasant to those holding the short end of the stick...(ware the alien social workers!)

A first contact with advanced aliens coming here, unshielded by the comfortable light-years of distance and slow bandwidth of interstellar communications, will be almost certainly badly disturbing: many basic assumptions (the human-centered view of God, our place at the peak of creation, the peerless nature of our creativity and intelligence, etc.) will all be fundamentally challenged. Fundamentally new concepts of life and the universe and the place of sentient beings in it will undoubtedly be encountered. Alien culture might contain things as big as art or religion which we've entirely missed. Even if they only stayed for a fortnight and left after a big party, the world would be turned upside down.

Bruce

[1] The "contact by radio" is another option, as is "contact through finding a long-buried alien artifact on Mars or whatever".


B_Munro, please don't accuse me of trolling because I happen to disagree with the majority of the people here. It doesn't help your argument, and we are allowed to have opposing viewpoints.
 
Why?
You've yet to explain why you think aliens would be human.

I think this because I believe that most life-sustaining planets will have a similar ecology and similar types of species that inhabit the planet. Following that presumption, I predict a species similar to humans forming.

that's humane, a result of ethics. the species are human, a type of primate.

Ah, that is a distinction. But I don't see what relevance this has to the previous argument you are responding to.
 
I think this because I believe that most life-sustaining planets will have a similar ecology and similar types of species that inhabit the planet. Following that presumption, I predict a species similar to humans forming.

But how do you arrive at those presumptions? A planet can sustain life and complex ecosystems without being exactly like Earth; as to similar types of species, how do you figure the evolutionary path following the rise of life would have to follow roughly the same path as Earth to get sentient life? Or for that matter that the only sentient life that could form put of a planet's evolution would come from primate-like ancestors? (I mean seriously, there's a whole other current thread on that last question!)

On the trolling accusation, I'm not offering a definitive opinion either way -- but if you want to know why someone would accuse you of such a thing, try and imagine the fury people commanders would feel reading such repeated leaps of logic. Just saying...
 
I'll just repost my reply to Kevyv's PM: perhaps I'm being oversensitive, but he rubbed me the wrong way.


I accuse you of trolling because you say some things with little logical basis and then fail to really back them up:

"I personally think that, while aliens do exist, they are just like us down to the last detail. Pretty much humans born on another planet, or at least with very few differences that matter. "

With the curious proviso

"There also might be a possible species decended from lizards"

(Big WorldWar fan? :confused: )

And then you misrepresent other people's point of view in an insulting manner

"I don't buy into the whole "every species of alien but ours has superpowers and ultra advanced technology" theory for aliens."

Then you seem to be sneering at John Parker

'Originally Posted by John Fredrick Parker
I don't think the idea is aliens have superpowers or anything, just that in all likelihood they'd have a very different evolutionary path; as to technology, I think most just try to imagine what level you'd need to cross the stars... '

"and then their imaginations begin to wander."

Seemingly deliberate missing the point

Originally Posted by The Professor
None of here are saying that aliens would be exactly like the movies.
I think most of us would agree that movie-aliens are too human!

Have you considered that aliens would be less human that what we have in the movies?

"how could they be less human? humans are pretty good at dehumanizing people."

I think he means physically and biologically, Kev...

"So did I... why is there no emoticon for facepalm?"


Originally Posted by Polish Eagle
Physically. Less "Vulcan" and more "Jabba the Hutt."

"That seems more unlikely and unrealistic to me."

(No, Polish Eagle was not suggesting Jabba as a realistic alien design: he was trying to suggest level of difference)

You have a somehat unfriendly tone, and some eccentric (and contradictory) views which you don't seem to offer any real support for.

Perhaps you're not trolling, but a slightly less assertive and "you guys are full of crap" tone would be appreciated.

Bruce
 

Keenir

Banned
It's not just a question of who beats whom, but whether waging a war in the first place is worth the cost -- as I pointed out earlier, given humanity's capacity to destroy our planet's life destroying capabilities with our military technology, the aliens would literally get nothing for their effort, making the travels an utter waste of epic proportions...

no, it would still end with them in control of the planet.*

if they have the time to travel to our solar system, then they would have the time to be able to repair our planet (whether or not humans survived)

and if worlds with life are rare (or even moderately uncommon), that's all the more motivation to fix the planet we broke.
(a bit Uplift-y in terms of planetary conservation, but, there it is)



* = think about what you've suggested....when you go out for a drink, or a restaurant or a friend's house...there is a possibility (however remote), that, as you are enjoying yourself there, you will find yourself in the middle of a drive-by shooting, a burglary, some other act of violence, or perhaps a natural disaster.

will your reaction be to lock yourself away at home? if not, why assume aliens would have the same fear you lack?
 

Keenir

Banned
I think this because I believe that most life-sustaining planets will have a similar ecology and similar types of species that inhabit the planet. Following that presumption, I predict a species similar to humans forming.

which explains why Coconut Crabs look exactly like monkeys - because they inhabit the same ecological niche.

Ah, that is a distinction. But I don't see what relevance this has to the previous argument you are responding to.

you don't need to be humane to be human. that was my point: that the two are not the same thing.
 
I'd actually have to say that Star Trek offers one of the most realistic first contact scenarios. It is likely that most sentient space-faring species will be humanoid, because the humanoid design is just a very efficient one for a planet of our specifications or similar. The head, neck and heart are above the ground, so that smaller predators like snakes and scorpions can't reach them easily, our hands are extremely versatile, our skull allows for a highly developed brain, and our feet and legs can accomplish a variety of tasks such as jump, cushion falls, walk, run, sneak, climb, balance and even aid swimming. I also assume that any society that makes it as far as ours did must develop some sort of system of ethics and cannot be a very aggressive or warmongering race - after all, any species that reaches the stage of developing highly sophisticated spacecraft can be assumed to have developed the atom bomb - and if the species were blindly aggressive and egocentric, it means they would have died decades before they could even send the first starship on an extrasolar mission. So we've more or less established that most species will be relatively peaceful and humanoid. Sorry, fans of Crysis & Co, but universally evil aliens? Nah. Our planet is far to used up already, it would be of little use to them. Really evil aliens that are on a scavenger hunt for resources would go to more interesting planets like Mercury or Mars.
 
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