Question about an Austrian Turmoil/Civil War

What will be Germany's attitude to all this carry on next door?

Frex, Germany has no direct quarrel with either Serbia or Rumania - only an indirect one due to needing to support AH. So if the Magyars make an independence bid without first having cleared it with Berlin, could they find themselves getting something like OTL's Treaty of Trianon - but imposed by Germany instead of by the Entente?

It puts me in mind of an episode of Dad's Army. Captain Mainwaring has outlined an elaborate scheme for dealing with a German tank, involving climbing on top of it and dropping a homemade bomb through the hatch, or similar. After he's finished, Private Walker pipes up "Excuse me, but while we're doing all this - what's the tank going to be doing?"
 
I doubt that there would be a massive uprising of all ethnicities. A lot of people would just be enfranchised and have an equal vote to the imperial government. A lot of people worked in the imperial administration, post, railroad etc and were dependent on pay and pensions from the imperial government.

Remember that it took four years of the most gruesome war ever, and losing with more than 80% casualties to the army before people turned to the various nationalist movements as an alternative government OTL.

Austrians: "Hi. We just crushed a Hungarian revolt, and you now have equal rights and vote as all other citizens in the Empire. Economic growth is superb and will be even bigger when the Hungarian landlords are not controlling things."

Croats: "Hi. We hate you and will revolt now, especially AFTER you have finished off the Hungarians and the army have lots of prestige and is ready to go after any other revolter. K thx bye."
 
Germany would support the Austrian government and the dynasty politically, economically and militarily, as long as she sees Austria as a viable state at least. Austria is vital to the German plans in many ways and Berlin has no intention to see her collapsing.
However, to my mind this requires an Austrian state able to stand on its own to some degree. A long-time military commitment just to keep the place together might be too much if, and only if, Berlin can envision a viable stable alternative that serves its interests. But I tend to think that no other arrangement is in German interests as much as a stable Austria as junior partner.
My scenario includes a situation where Germany and Russia are on friendly terms, so that the Slavic question within Austria has a different diplomatic framework. There is competition between Russia and Austria in the Balkans as per OTL, but on much less hostile terms. Russia is busy in Asia and has much less concern for Serbia.
As I said before, I am not sure about what would happen in case of a massive military commitment of German troops in Austria. Nobody wil be happy with that, but probably Russia will accept that if Serbia is not directly threatened. If Serbia, Romania, or both, directly attack Austria, Russia would not move to help them militarily but would likely try to offer some kind of diplomatic arrangement to let Serbia survive.
Italy is difficult. She was in a nationalist frenzy OTL like many other powers, but in my scenario she is very busy in North Africa and might get involved in the succession crisis in Ethiopia too.
I think that the Triple Alliance is not renewed in 1918 if Austria seems weak, which is likely.
Von Adler: many groups within the empire did not want enfranchisement within a unified Empire but recognition of greater autonomy if not outright breakoff from Vienna. No degree of civil rights could appease Italians, Romanians and Bosnian Serbs alone. They wanted to reunify with their own national states beyond the border. Of course, none of these groups was alone in the land the inhabited, with the exception of Trentino. The Littoral had a Slavic majority at this point I think, not to mention Dalmatia (though Austrian censuses could be though to underestimate Italian numbers for political reasons). Slovenians, Croats and Serbs in those areas would probably prefer more rights within the Empire than being a despised minority in Greater Italy, and I realize that they were not uninamimously keen to unite with Serbia. Czechs were the only important group whose leadership would be seriously committed in cooperation to keep the Empire together... at their own conditions, yes, but those conditions were not so unreasonable.
Much of the problem is in Franz Ferdinand. The guy perceived many of the problems of the empire correctly, but had he viable solutions? The main issue I see with him is that he was a stubborn, uncomprising man, and compromise was exactly what the Empire needed a this point. OTOH, I agree with Snake in that he would not use violence if could not. A quick display of military force in Budapest would do much to delay, if not solve, several issues, but I'm inclined to think he'd resort to that later, when thing are already spiraling partially out of control. The situation may seem close to what is happening now in Syria. However, it may take years.
The Empire will not crumble rapidly except in the event of crushing military defeats, an even that German support should help to avoid.
 
I would like to stress that collapse of Austria, while a distinct possiblity, is not a foregone conclusion. No great power, not even Italy, really wanted it, though actually taking away the whole Littoral and Fiume was tantamount to destroying Austria as a significant power I think.
No one wanted to get involved in the mess that a collapse would cause. That, of course, might mean nothing as everybody had its own agenda and critical internal developments could hinder the ability of Austria to stay together beyond recovery, no matter what the others do.
For one, Austria served British interests in this scenario, but not to the point that London would be happy with the German army all around the place.
France would not stand such a thing either I think. Italy could if compensated with what she wanted, and what she wanted was too much for German tastes. A general war may o may not break out of the mess.
 
I would like to stress that collapse of Austria, while a distinct possiblity, is not a foregone conclusion. No great power, not even Italy, really wanted it, though actually taking away the whole Littoral and Fiume was tantamount to destroying Austria as a significant power I think.


And was in any case unattainable unless Austria had collapsed first.
 
I'll try to outline a possible sketch of the situation. Let's say Franz Joseph dies in March 1917. Franz Ferdinand is crowned and makes some changes in the court, nothing major for now though. He and his men start talks with the Hungarian leadership in climate of mistrust and mutual suspicion.
Franz probably says some harsh words and Hungarian press uses harsher tones. Meanwhile, the court stats seeking support against the Hungarian government around. Most nationalities offer varying degrees of support, but ask for something in reward. Negotiations go on tiredly for some months with to no outcome, and both sides starts idle talk about using force. However, neither side is realling willing to push things that far for now.
Desperate for more support, feeling the risk of total isolation, the Hungarians start courting the Croats, who are already talking with the Crown of course and waiting for the best offer. I feel that their attitude would be a gamechanger, since if they support the Crown, Hungarians are quite screwed. If they find Hungarian offers better, there could be a serious clash.
Many plans of reform are issued, none of which satisying enough for all sides. The ethnic Germans in Cisleithania, while loyally supporting the Crown, start sensing that their position is threatened, and that the Crown will have to satisfy the others at their expense to crush Hungarian opposition. Agitation, and maybe small scale violence, may erupt in some places. My bets are on Slovakia, Transylvania and the Banate first, and Slovenia a little later. The Army intervenes, but there is no major conflict and the situation, while tense, is still under control. Small revolts may burst in Bosnia. We are well into 1918 by this point and the Crown's patience is likely to be out. I think some tens of people may have died in various places, but it is not something to worry about for now at a political level.
At this point, Franz Ferdinand opts for a demonstrative display of force and sends some troops in and around Budapest, with restrained orders.
As a reaction, Hungarians declare they are ready to use force either. Problably each side thinks the other is bluffing.
Now, a military confrontation probably happens. The conflict may be of varying length, depending on how much internal support FF is able to gather. If he does not manage to be succesful quickly, Germany may send troops, thus discouraging any funny idea Belgrade, Rome and Bucharest may harbor. But more likely, the Austrian Army is able to defeat the Hungarians alone - not so cheaply though. When this is over, we are probably in 1919, and economic growth has probably stopped or slowed.
Victory may give Franz some breathing room. Now it's time to reform the Empire, and very long talks begin again. There is a number of people that are pissed off in Hungary, and they could not be squeezed to much. OToH, there ar elots of groups that will be pissed if not rewarded adequately, and the rift between FF's plans and the hopes of the nationalities emerge.
At this point, his willingness to compromise is the key. It's hard to see how to create an agreement that does not piss off any substantial group, but a viable system could be theoretically worked out... if extremists on various sides do not take over. Riots will happen and terrorism of various brands may emerge. I am not sure what happens next.
 
I'll try to outline a possible sketch of the situation. Let's say Franz Joseph dies in March 1917. Franz Ferdinand is crowned and makes some changes in the court, nothing major for now though. He and his men start talks with the Hungarian leadership in climate of mistrust and mutual suspicion.
Franz probably says some harsh words and Hungarian press uses harsher tones. Meanwhile, the court stats seeking support against the Hungarian government around. Most nationalities offer varying degrees of support, but ask for something in reward. Negotiations go on tiredly for some months with to no outcome, and both sides starts idle talk about using force. However, neither side is realling willing to push things that far for now.
Desperate for more support, feeling the risk of total isolation, the Hungarians start courting the Croats, who are already talking with the Crown of course and waiting for the best offer. I feel that their attitude would be a gamechanger, since if they support the Crown, Hungarians are quite screwed. If they find Hungarian offers better, there could be a serious clash.
Many plans of reform are issued, none of which satisying enough for all sides. The ethnic Germans in Cisleithania, while loyally supporting the Crown, start sensing that their position is threatened, and that the Crown will have to satisfy the others at their expense to crush Hungarian opposition. Agitation, and maybe small scale violence, may erupt in some places. My bets are on Slovakia, Transylvania and the Banate first, and Slovenia a little later. The Army intervenes, but there is no major conflict and the situation, while tense, is still under control. Small revolts may burst in Bosnia. We are well into 1918 by this point and the Crown's patience is likely to be out. I think some tens of people may have died in various places, but it is not something to worry about for now at a political level.
At this point, Franz Ferdinand opts for a demonstrative display of force and sends some troops in and around Budapest, with restrained orders.
As a reaction, Hungarians declare they are ready to use force either. Problably each side thinks the other is bluffing.
Now, a military confrontation probably happens. The conflict may be of varying length, depending on how much internal support FF is able to gather. If he does not manage to be succesful quickly, Germany may send troops, thus discouraging any funny idea Belgrade, Rome and Bucharest may harbor. But more likely, the Austrian Army is able to defeat the Hungarians alone - not so cheaply though. When this is over, we are probably in 1919, and economic growth has probably stopped or slowed.
Victory may give Franz some breathing room. Now it's time to reform the Empire, and very long talks begin again. There is a number of people that are pissed off in Hungary, and they could not be squeezed to much. OToH, there ar elots of groups that will be pissed if not rewarded adequately, and the rift between FF's plans and the hopes of the nationalities emerge.
At this point, his willingness to compromise is the key. It's hard to see how to create an agreement that does not piss off any substantial group, but a viable system could be theoretically worked out... if extremists on various sides do not take over. Riots will happen and terrorism of various brands may emerge. I am not sure what happens next.

Germany may send troops - Russia will send troops if asked as per 1849. Probable reestablishment of a reactionary Three Emperors League and possible Europe wide revolution in the next recession covering Austria-Hungary, Russia and parts of Germany. Lenin escapes to France who put him on a boat to Helsinki..........
 
Germany may send troops - Russia will send troops if asked as per 1849. Probable reestablishment of a reactionary Three Emperors League and possible Europe wide revolution in the next recession covering Austria-Hungary, Russia and parts of Germany. Lenin escapes to France who put him on a boat to Helsinki..........

Russia won't be asked any troops unless the situation is really desperate. Something like a Dreikaserbund is already in place, though much less formal and close than precedent incarnations of the concept, because of mutual mistrust between Austria and Russia and Russian fears about the Germans on the Straits. If Austria escapes this crisis intact, this alliance might be strengthened.
Indeed, my scenario owes much to Sarantapechaina's Eurasian War in this.
 
I doubt that there would be a massive uprising of all ethnicities. A lot of people would just be enfranchised and have an equal vote to the imperial government. A lot of people worked in the imperial administration, post, railroad etc and were dependent on pay and pensions from the imperial government.

Remember that it took four years of the most gruesome war ever, and losing with more than 80% casualties to the army before people turned to the various nationalist movements as an alternative government OTL.

Austrians: "Hi. We just crushed a Hungarian revolt, and you now have equal rights and vote as all other citizens in the Empire. Economic growth is superb and will be even bigger when the Hungarian landlords are not controlling things."

Croats: "Hi. We hate you and will revolt now, especially AFTER you have finished off the Hungarians and the army have lots of prestige and is ready to go after any other revolter. K thx bye."


You misunderstood what I said. The Croats would most probably support the goverment in Vienna as long as they do not touch the existance of Croatian Sabor(diet) but I think they could be willing to negotiate a solution that would mirror to an extent what Scotland has today in UK. So Croats would support a general A-H diet as long as their Croatian diet remains. The Croatian diet is one of the cornerstones of Croatian identity. Among with many other things that was done in first Yugoslavia the disolution of the Croatian Sabor was one of the main things the Croatian people were resentful for.


edit@ I could actually see Czech and Croat leadership working together and conditioning their support against Hungarians with greater autonomy within the monarchy.
 
You misunderstood what I said. The Croats would most probably support the goverment in Vienna as long as they do not touch the existance of Croatian Sabor(diet) but I think they could be willing to negotiate a solution that would mirror to an extent what Scotland has today in UK. So Croats would support a general A-H diet as long as their Croatian diet remains. The Croatian diet is one of the cornerstones of Croatian identity. Among with many other things that was done in first Yugoslavia the disolution of the Croatian Sabor was one of the main things the Croatian people were resentful for.


edit@ I could actually see Czech and Croat leadership working together and conditioning their support against Hungarians with greater autonomy within the monarchy.

Ah, I misunderstood. Sorry about that. I think the Czechs and the Croats would try to squeeze any advantage they could out of Franz Ferdinand, but that the Austrians would be able (and most of all, far more willing) to offer far better terms than the Hungarian nobility.

Austria, like Russia, was a state that pretty much relied on the prestige of the army as the main reason people accepted the state. When the army collapsed, so did the state. Note that Germany survived the collapse of their army, even though their government did not.

My take on how this goes down.

Franz Joseph dies early spring 1917. Franz Joseph is crowned Emperor of Austria. The Hungarians try to push more demands as part of the Ausgleich 1917 (due for October or November, I think). Franz Ferdinand is having none of it and are actually making demands to come to Budapest and be crowned.

Both sides send out feelers. The Romanians and Serbs in Hungaria are pretty much content with getting the vote along the lines of the Austrian parliament. The Slovaks would want their own state, but realise that they cannot get it. The Croats will not support Hungary without getting its own state, which the Hungarian nationalists refuse. The Czechs want more autonomy, and is promised it. The Italians mostly want to become part of Italy, but they are mostly not consulted.

As for foreign support, Germany supports the Austrians. They will move ten divisions or so to guard the Austro-Italian border in case of a conflict, allowing the entire Austrian army to fight the Hungarians, and sending a clear message to Italy - stay out. Austria, Italy and Germany are still allied at this point, and the Italians will probably get the message clearly. Perhaps they can be bribed by promises of support by Austria and Germany for Italian designs on Albania and Ethiopia.

Serbia is pretty much international pariah since the murders of the royal family. Russia will support them, if they are attacked, but not if they start a war of aggression. They will probably, like Italy, try to gain support by France (one of their primary trading partners, and their biggest source of arms) and Russia, but will not get a blank cheque anywhere. If the Austrians bog down in Hungary, they might see an opportunity, but they will wait for a year at least.

Romania would like Transylvania, but without Russian support, it will be hard or even impossible. While an Serbo-Italian-Romanian alliance might be able to handle Austria, if it is embroiled in a civil war, German support for Austria makes the prospect bleak, especially without Russian or French support.

Russia will not support the Hungarians and would probably intervene like in 1849 if asked - they will probably not need to, but they will not partake in any dismemberment of Austria-Hungary either.

France will probably send feelers to Russia - they would be willing to support Italy in a war, but only if Russia is in on it too. They don't want to face the German army on their own, and not without the British navy to help. And the British will most likely not grant any support for French revanchism at this stage.

All of this might very well change if the Hungarians can hold out for a year. Then the small nations can claim they need to protect their ethnic comrades inside Austria-Hungary and 'intervene', but they will not attack immediately, since it will be seen as a naked landgrab and will yield them little to no support.

As for the actual war, how does it start, and how does it pan out?

Probably, there's some violence in Banat, Transylvania, Slovakia or Croatia. Franz Ferdinand uses it as an excuse to send in the army. The Hungarians protest, but the Austrians claim they are just restoring orders.

The Hungarians mobilise the Honved just a bit too late, they are still trying to get international support and get the minorities aboard and do not want to be seen as the aggressors.

The Austrians, with German support, have more men, more guns, more industry and most likely they'll also win the international propaganda war. While there might be some stirrings in Congress Poland (supressed by Russian troops) and some romantic ideas in England about the 'brave Hungarians', the fact that Hungarian is a minor language very unlike the most spoken ones in the world, while German and French (lots of Austrians, especially among the upper classes, speak French) are big ones gives the Austrians a big edge in the propaganda war.

As for the fighting, it depends a lot on the artillery. 1914, the Austro-Hungarian army had 1870s and 1880s vintage artillery, with modern pieces in the pipeline. OTL they lost a lot of their trained pre-war gunners in Galizia and Przemysl and when their artillery got new guns, the well-trained men to man them were gone.

Austria, especially with Bohemia-Moravia, is far more industrialised than Hungary. It is quite possible that the Imperial and Royal Army and the Austrina Landwehr have modern artillery, while the Honved still have the 1870s and 1880s artillery, which will make the Austrian forces far superior.

The Hungarians will have better cavalry, a good force in the Honved, decent support and probably a lot of nationalist volunteers. However, the Austrians will probably have secured Slovakia and Croatia before hostilities start up, and the Hungarians will be isolated without a port. They have no access to nitrates for ammunition and no industry to produce more arms and ammunition. While they may be able to secure an area roughly equilent to ethnic Hungary, with fighting going on in Transylvania, they will not have the resources to hold it, since they need to fight on two or even three fronts (and guarding against the Russians to avoid a repeat of 1849).

I foresee the Austrians, suffering large casualties learning modern warfare will push over the Hungarian plains to Budapest within two months, then be held up fighting for Budapest for another two months, as Budapest falls, so does Hungary, having no resources and no support to keep fighting.

The aftermath? Some kind of centralised federation. All regions are allowed their own parliament that handles police, local taxes, schooling, social affairs etc, while the central parliament in Vienna handles the army, the federal taxes, the navy, the foreign policy and federal authorities and entities such as state-owned companies, railroads and the Donau, pensions, federal police and of course foreign policy.

The army has gained a lot of prestige defeating the Hungarians, most ethnic minorities get a bit of what they want, the Hungarian tenant farmers (semi-serfs) get the vote, the Hungarian parliament is downgraded to a regional one having no say in foreign policy and other federal decisions.
 
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