Prussian integration of Saxony and cultural effects of a Prussian Saxony

[LordCalner]

I was reading up on the congress of Vienna in general and the Polish-Saxon crisis in particular when a question hit me, say that Prussia gains all of Saxony....how well were its integration into the prussian state fare? The Rhineland saw the prussians as occupiers and in the later province of Hannover there was the Welfenpartei.

Now the Rhineland was mostly catholic and Saxony nearly completely protestant so that might ease things but the saxons had been a regional power for longer than Prussia and frequently on the opposite side in conflicts.
Would it ever be "just another province" or would it be plagued with similar regional separation as the Rhineland?

Also, what would be the cultural implikationer most of the protestant north east consolidated into one large state?

 

[raharris1973]

A very interesting and original question - neat!

 

[Gloss]

I was reading up on the congress of Vienna in general and the Polish-Saxon crisis in particular when a question hit me, say that Prussia gains all of Saxony....how well were its integration into the prussian state fare? The Rhineland saw the prussians as occupiers and in the later province of Hannover there was the Welfenpartei.

Now the Rhineland was mostly catholic and Saxony nearly completely protestant so that might ease things but the saxons had been a regional power for longer than Prussia and frequently on the opposite side in conflicts.
Would it ever be "just another province" or would it be plagued with similar regional separation as the Rhineland?

Also, what would be the cultural implikationer most of the protestant north east consolidated into one large state?

Saxons were Protestant and if I'm not overlooking any inter-protestant difference Saxony would be relatively well integrated even more than Prussian or Silesian German-speaking Catholic region, OTL the annex Kingdom of Hannover after its annexation to Prussia in 1867 was recalcitrant and voted regionalist/autonomist parties but I'm not aware of any such movement in Prussian-annexed Saxony.

 

[Comte de Dordogne]

This does not answer the subject (although, indirectly) but if the Polish-Saxon crisis leads to an annexation of Saxony by Prussia, Berlin will have no possessions on the Rhine (or perhaps those pre-revolutionary).
This will change two enormous things for Prussia and Germany in general: Berlin will never have its Rhine industrial lung as in our reality. Moreover, the main motivation for Prussia to create a common economic zone with the other northern German states no longer exists, because it no longer needs to connect two parts of its territories separated by its neighbors.
The nineteenth century could lead to a much weaker unification movement in Germany (not sponsored by Berlin) and a more inward-looking Prussia, with less economic-industrial success (even if the annexation of Saxony could partly compensate for the absence of the Rhineland).
Culturally speaking, I think that the integration of Saxony would take place without great difficulties (except for a Saxon minority) and that if German unification did not take place (for the reasons I mentioned) Prussian culture would be much more "Protestant-Nordic" than OTL.

I made a map of a possible Prussia after an alternative Polish-Saxon crisis:

 

[Gloss]

This does not answer the subject (although, indirectly) but if the Polish-Saxon crisis leads to an annexation of Saxony by Prussia, Berlin will have no possessions on the Rhine (or perhaps those pre-revolutionary).
This will change two enormous things for Prussia and Germany in general: Berlin will never have its Rhine industrial lung as in our reality. Moreover, the main motivation for Prussia to create a common economic zone with the other northern German states no longer exists, because it no longer needs to connect two parts of its territories separated by its neighbors.
The nineteenth century could lead to a much weaker unification movement in Germany (not sponsored by Berlin) and a more inward-looking Prussia, with less economic-industrial success (even if the annexation of Saxony could partly compensate for the absence of the Rhineland).
Culturally speaking, I think that the integration of Saxony would take place without great difficulties (except for a Saxon minority) and that if German unification did not take place (for the reasons I mentioned) Prussian culture would be much more "Protestant-Nordic" than OTL.

I made a map of a possible Prussia after an alternative Polish-Saxon crisis:
View attachment 758182

I wouldn't be so sure, Prussia will probably still try to have it's 1789 exclaves back and connect them together, they can still end up with most of the Ruhr and while they might not have all of the Rhineland having so much of it would still push for economic integration.

 

[LordCalner]

This does not answer the subject (although, indirectly) but if the Polish-Saxon crisis leads to an annexation of Saxony by Prussia, Berlin will have no possessions on the Rhine (or perhaps those pre-revolutionary).
This will change two enormous things for Prussia and Germany in general: Berlin will never have its Rhine industrial lung as in our reality. Moreover, the main motivation for Prussia to create a common economic zone with the other northern German states no longer exists, because it no longer needs to connect two parts of its territories separated by its neighbors.
The nineteenth century could lead to a much weaker unification movement in Germany (not sponsored by Berlin) and a more inward-looking Prussia, with less economic-industrial success (even if the annexation of Saxony could partly compensate for the absence of the Rhineland).
Culturally speaking, I think that the integration of Saxony would take place without great difficulties (except for a Saxon minority) and that if German unification did not take place (for the reasons I mentioned) Prussian culture would be much more "Protestant-Nordic" than OTL.

I made a map of a possible Prussia after an alternative Polish-Saxon crisis:
View attachment 758182

Great map! And I Wonder what this inward looking Prussias relations with Austria and Russia would be? Would it even be counted as a great power? If I remember my reading right Prussia was derided by the other great powers during the first half of the 1800s post Napoleon for being very neutral and compromise happy.

 

[LordCalner]

Saxons were Protestant and if I'm not overlooking any inter-protestant difference Saxony would be relatively well integrated even more than Prussian or Silesian German-speaking Catholic region, OTL the annex Kingdom of Hannover after its annexation to Prussia in 1867 was recalcitrant and voted regionalist/autonomist parties but I'm not aware of any such movement in Prussian-annexed Saxony.

True, the half of saxony they got integrated quite swimmingly. What exactly was the difference do you think given that the hannoverians also were protestant north germans?

 

[Comte de Dordogne]

I wouldn't be so sure, Prussia will probably still try to have it's 1789 exclaves back and connect them together, they can still end up with most of the Ruhr and while they might not have all of the Rhineland having so much of it would still push for economic integration.

Prussia in 1815 did not want the Rhineland. At the beginning of the century, the Rhineland was almost worthless and its economic potential was not known at the Congress of Vienna.
That is why Prussia was motivated to get rid of its few scattered enclaves in the Rhineland against the much richer Saxony. At that time nobody wanted the Rhineland except France, and everybody wanted everybody in the Rhineland except France. Prussia found itself having to shield itself against possible French lobbying in the region (and it was more than a winner in the end).
Finally, my map is an optimistic scenario for Berlin, where Prussia keeps a few enclaves in the northern Rhine valley, but it could very well have lost them and been ejected from the region in favor of a Prussian Saxony.
But maybe we won't go on with that. As I said, this is not the main topic of the thread.

 

[LordCalner]

A very interesting and original question - neat!

Thank you!

 

[KingSweden24]

I don’t know enough about this period of German history but I imagine at least early on Saxony’s attitude would be similar to Hanover’s only to see a longer term integration, with Saxony-Silesia serving as a potent industrial belt for Prussia but one more attached/influenced by its Junker-dominated hinterland and thus perhaps less oriented towards external markets. The more liberal, urban Saxons become a key counterweight to the Junkers both inside and outside of whatever parliament emerges.

Would the Rhineland emerge as a Westphalian kingdom, though? I recall reading somewhere that the Wettins (who were Catholic) could have been booted from Lutheran Saxony to govern a Rhenish kingdom. This could have interesting knock-on effects of a Catholic bloc of Westphalia, Baden, and Bavaria having very different interests than both Prussia and Austria, and would probably look to resist Prussian ambitions if Hanover looked likely to be integrated into Prussia’s sphere of influence or formal borders. One wonders too if the Hanoverians in Britain would have been as tolerant of evacuating their German possessions in such a scenario too.

 

[Gloss]

Prussia in 1815 did not want the Rhineland. At the beginning of the century, the Rhineland was almost worthless and its economic potential was not known at the Congress of Vienna.
That is why Prussia was motivated to get rid of its few scattered enclaves in the Rhineland against the much richer Saxony. At that time nobody wanted the Rhineland except France, and everybody wanted everybody in the Rhineland except France. Prussia found itself having to shield itself against possible French lobbying in the region (and it was more than a winner in the end).
Finally, my map is an optimistic scenario for Berlin, where Prussia keeps a few enclaves in the northern Rhine valley, but it could very well have lost them and been ejected from the region in favor of a Prussian Saxony.
But maybe we won't go on with that. As I said, this is not the main topic of the thread.

I'm honestly very skeptical, did Prussia really want to trade ALL of the Rhineland AND Westfalia including the land they held before AND Posen just for the remaining parts of Saxony? It doesn't seem a fair trade for them and I seriously doubt the Ruhr was remotely as worthless as argued.

On top of this most of the actual Rhineland west of the Rhine and south of Cologne is not that rich and populated anyway, so it's not like Prussia would be losing much.

 

[rfmcdonald]

My understanding is that the Wettins would, in the event of the annexation of all Saxony, end up displaced to rule a new Rhineland kingdom.

My guess is that the Saxons would assimilate relatively easily into the Prussian mainstream, though the details matter.

 

[LordCalner]

I don’t know enough about this period of German history but I imagine at least early on Saxony’s attitude would be similar to Hanover’s only to see a longer term integration, with Saxony-Silesia serving as a potent industrial belt for Prussia but one more attached/influenced by its Junker-dominated hinterland and thus perhaps less oriented towards external markets. The more liberal, urban Saxons become a key counterweight to the Junkers both inside and outside of whatever parliament emerges.

Would the Rhineland emerge as a Westphalian kingdom, though? I recall reading somewhere that the Wettins (who were Catholic) could have been booted from Lutheran Saxony to govern a Rhenish kingdom. This could have interesting knock-on effects of a Catholic bloc of Westphalia, Baden, and Bavaria having very different interests than both Prussia and Austria, and would probably look to resist Prussian ambitions if Hanover looked likely to be integrated into Prussia’s sphere of influence or formal borders. One wonders too if the Hanoverians in Britain would have been as tolerant of evacuating their German possessions in such a scenario too.

One of my favorite authors in my thread? I am humbled!

This third block sounds interesting, but wasnt Baden protestant?

The dynamic between the liberal saxons and rural looking rest of prussia sounds about what I was pondering around. Also with saxony the kingdom gets more compact and defensiven borders, something that will affect their foreign Outlook no doubt.

 

[LordCalner]

My understanding is that the Wettins would, in the event of the annexation of all Saxony, end up displaced to rule a new Rhineland kingdom.

My guess is that the Saxons would assimilate relatively easily into the Prussian mainstream, though the details matter.

Indeed, a saxony gained by a limited war between prussia and russia and the other allies version one gained relatively bloodlessly at the conference are two different things.

 

[Nivek]

Indeed, a saxony gained by a limited war between prussia and russia and the other allies version one gained relatively bloodlessly at the conference are two different things.

The main thing, is regardless who get the Rhineland...Prussia is germany now, with Prussia and Saxony, the Hohenzollern control a third of the german itself, and the most homogeneous regions, regardless of the Rhineland, Saxony Silver mines worth the region, Prussia will be richer ITTL

 

[KingSweden24]

One of my favorite authors in my thread? I am humbled!

This third block sounds interesting, but wasnt Baden protestant?

The dynamic between the liberal saxons and rural looking rest of prussia sounds about what I was pondering around. Also with saxony the kingdom gets more compact and defensiven borders, something that will affect their foreign Outlook no doubt.

Too kind!

Baden was part of the majority Catholic South German bloc Bismarck was only able to absorb by cockslapping Austria and France. Without that they’d have stayed out, no doubt. That being said, Baden did have a large Protestant minority, and the Ducal family were themselves Protestant

 

[raharris1973]

Not to threadjack, but what about an earlier PoD. What if Frederick the Great decide during the Pragmatic Sanction era to stone cold leave Silesia alone, but attacked and straight up murdered and consumed all of Saxony then like a cannibal? Could he pull it off if he makes the right alliances and anyone chooses to fight him?

 

[Nivek]

Not to threadjack, but what about an earlier PoD. What if Frederick the Great decide during the Pragmatic Sanction era to stone cold leave Silesia alone, but attacked and straight up murdered and consumed all of Saxony then like a cannibal? Could he pull it off if he makes the right alliances and anyone chooses to fight him?

Why he would even do that? During the Pragmatic Sanction, the plan was to dispose of the Habsburgs with one of the other two mayor catholic families, either the Wettins or the Wittelbasch, Wittelbasch won as the wettins already got the baggage of the polish kingdom. Maybe a TL when the Alliance under the wettins streamroll the habsburgs out of existence and some cow trading make Prussia win the protestant Saxony in Exchange for the wettins taking over the catholic bohemian and Austrians regions?(The Wittelbasch can took over the Austrian Netherlands)

 

[TrickyApe]

Prussia in 1815 did not want the Rhineland. At the beginning of the century, the Rhineland was almost worthless and its economic potential was not known at the Congress of Vienna.

The Rhineland was quite prosperous by the standards of Germany of the day, with commerce and industry developing well under the French regime. The heavy industry of the future was of course still far in the future, but that's another issue.

My understanding is that the Wettins would, in the event of the annexation of all Saxony, end up displaced to rule a new Rhineland kingdom.

The sticking point to that idea was that everyone expected the Wettins to resume their role as French allies/puppets, which made their placement on a strategic frontier unacceptable.

 

[Nivek]

The sticking point to that idea was that everyone expected the Wettins to resume their role as French allies/puppets, which made their placement on a strategic frontier unacceptable.

Maybe if they jump ship earlier? Or capture Napoleon and deliver him in silver chains might be needed?