Protestant Ireland?

[JJohnson]

I was reading an article on Middle Scots, since languages are always interesting, and something caught my eye:

"The adherence of many Highlanders to the Catholic faith during the Reformation led to the 1609 Statutes of Iona forcing Clan chiefs to establish Protestant churches, send their sons to Lowland schools and withdraw their patronage from the hereditary guardians of Gaelic culture – the bards."

So, let's posit the English do this in Ireland as well as the Plantation of Ulster, but perhaps a more spread out Plantation, letting Protestantism spread across Ireland. The Irish chiefs are forced to establish Protestant 'Church of Ireland' churches and send their sons and daughters to schools that teach English. Would this help to cause a more Protestant Ireland? And what would the effects of this be today? Would Ireland remain in the UK in such a case?

 

[Dragos Cel Mare]

I was reading an article on Middle Scots, since languages are always interesting, and something caught my eye:

"The adherence of many Highlanders to the Catholic faith during the Reformation led to the 1609 Statutes of Iona forcing Clan chiefs to establish Protestant churches, send their sons to Lowland schools and withdraw their patronage from the hereditary guardians of Gaelic culture – the bards."

So, let's posit the English do this in Ireland as well as the Plantation of Ulster, but perhaps a more spread out Plantation, letting Protestantism spread across Ireland. The Irish chiefs are forced to establish Protestant 'Church of Ireland' churches and send their sons and daughters to schools that teach English. Would this help to cause a more Protestant Ireland? And what would the effects of this be today? Would Ireland remain in the UK in such a case?

I heard that the main reason for the English oppressing the Irish (or at least conquering them in the first place) was Ireland being a base for either pirate raids against England or Ireland being a potential base for a foreign power to invade England; religion will not change those reasons, although it was undoubtedly a factor in causing things to grow worse.

 

[funnyhat]

So, let's posit the English do this in Ireland as well as the Plantation of Ulster, but perhaps a more spread out Plantation, letting Protestantism spread across Ireland. The Irish chiefs are forced to establish Protestant 'Church of Ireland' churches and send their sons and daughters to schools that teach English. Would this help to cause a more Protestant Ireland? And what would the effects of this be today? Would Ireland remain in the UK in such a case?

Keep in mind, the Reformation in Scotland was essentially a homegrown movement (at least in the Lowlands), which gave the government a level of credibility that the English overlords in Ireland did not have.

In Ireland, Protestantism was an introduced faith, brought in by outsiders. Anything tying Protestantism to the English language would only reinforce its foreign nature and most likely, cause it to be shunned by the population. A more successful strategy would probably be to translate the Bible into Irish at an early date (like under Edward VI or early in Elizabeth's reign), to make Protestantism accessible to the masses. This was basically what happened in Wales and was successful.

 

[Timaeus]

Well, there's that timeline where Ireland became home to a radical nationalist homegrown Protestantism stuck between the traditional Catholic Church and the Anglicanism of the English.

 

[desmirelle]

My immediate reaction to the question is that the Irish already protest everything (check out the fans at the soccer games!)

 

[Analytical Engine]

Well, there's that timeline where Ireland became home to a radical nationalist homegrown Protestantism stuck between the traditional Catholic Church and the Anglicanism of the English.

Otherwise known as OTL.

 

[Timaeus]

Otherwise known as OTL.

I remember the TL now, it's Now Blooms the Tudor Rose by Space Oddity.

Also, I'm fairly certain there was never an Irish ex-monk turned brigand who anointed a man as King of All Irishmen.

 

[Maximilien.]

In the event that Ireland had been Protestant, would remain British.

 

[Guildencrantz]

In the event that Ireland had been Protestant, would remain British.

I'm not so sure about that. Even though religion was a major excuse for the oppression of the Irish, I doubt that Irish nationalism is entirely dependent on Catholicism. Heck, Wolfe Tone, a member of the Church of Ireland, founded the United Irishmen. And there were other Protestants who became Nationalists IOTL. So I don't think that that's entirely certain that Ireland would stay under British rule forever in that case.

 

[Emperor RyRy]

I've been to Ireland, all around it, and if you mean Protestantism enforced by the English, then I feel sorry for its people, considering the differences between Ireland and Northern Ireland today.

 

[BELFAST]

Even if the Irish had become Protestant, they still would have rebelled. The English came to Ireland to steal the land. The religion of the people I think would make little difference.
Wolfe Tone and the Protestants of 1798 (Documentary).

Story of the 1798 Rebellion where Wolfe Tone and other Presbyterian leaders rebelled against British rule in Ireland.

There is a long history of Protestants rebelling in Ireland.
The history of the conflict with he British in Ireland is more about land than religion.

If the English wanted the Irish to be protestant they should ban Irish catholics for converting to protestants.

 

[Minty_Fresh]

The easiest way is for the Catholic Church, through some internal divide at some point, gets rid of monasteries. Monasteries were huge deals in Ireland and most of Celtic Britain, and if they go away, splintering versions of Christian doctrine take over without allegiance to Rome. These doctrines could be openly Protestant or just very susceptible to Scottish Protestantism.

But another way would be for Cromwell and his successors to take the Hell or Connacht doctrine more seriously and not allow Irish to settle their old lands again informally serving English lords, but rather to just kill them and depopulate Ireland. Putting a bounty on dead Irish would be effective for the largely militaristic Protestant settler-adventurers who in OTL allowed the Irish to work for them on their land. Having more settlers go to Ireland would help as well. Perhaps having pull factors in Ireland for English Dissenters last a long time rather than just briefly would help.

 

[BELFAST]

The easiest way is for the Catholic Church, through some internal divide at some point, gets rid of monasteries. Monasteries were huge deals in Ireland and most of Celtic Britain, and if they go away, splintering versions of Christian doctrine take over without allegiance to Rome. These doctrines could be openly Protestant or just very susceptible to Scottish Protestantism.

But another way would be for Cromwell and his successors to take the Hell or Connacht doctrine more seriously and not allow Irish to settle their old lands again informally serving English lords, but rather to just kill them and depopulate Ireland. Putting a bounty on dead Irish would be effective for the largely militaristic Protestant settler-adventurers who in OTL allowed the Irish to work for them on their land. Having more settlers go to Ireland would help as well. Perhaps having pull factors in Ireland for English Dissenters last a long time rather than just briefly would help.

I think there were not enough people willing to go to ireland. I not sure that even Cromwell had enough men to remove all the irish from the plantation areas.
I suspect that moving to the colonies in the Americas is going to be a better choice for settlers.
I f the English get enough settlers to move to Ireland will they have enough to settler the Americas too?

 

[Minty_Fresh]

I think there were not enough people willing to go to ireland. I not sure that even Cromwell had enough men to remove all the irish from the plantation areas.
I suspect that moving to the colonies in the Americas is going to be a better choice for settlers.
I f the English get enough settlers to move to Ireland will they have enough to settler the Americas too?

The big English settlement waves in the 1600s could have been a hell of a lot bigger had it been logistically possible. There were plenty of low church English Dissenters who wanted to leave England, and arguably Cromwell's victory in the Civil War was what kept a lot of them in England. It wasn't just religious, either. The mercantile revolution of the Tudor era made being a rural English farmer still quite difficult but without the protections of the inefficient Feudal period before. By the 1600s, displacement of English farmers was driving many of them abroad.

In the 1700s, however, this urge abates a bit. The big push to America in the 1700s came from Ulster Scots dissatisfied with the lack of land available to them and from the Scottish Highland clan members driven out in the clearances (and there were a lot of them).

What I was describing is Ireland being settled by a few more Englishmen, but also becoming a depopulated hellscape after the Puritan Adventurer Lords are motivated to exterminate the native Irish with bounties, and militarily, they had this power while Cromwell was in power.
If there simply aren't any more Irish Catholics, the Protestant Ireland challenge is met. Or perhaps, the Irish could be pushed into the American colonies in the way that the Scottish Highlanders were. The problem with this is that at the time, they were sold as slaves in the New World, and would not be able to simply pack up for the backcountry and start farming the way that the Scottish were able to.

 

[Mikestone8]

In the event that Ireland had been Protestant, would remain British.

Not necessarily. Irish nonconformists can be every bit as bolshie as Irish Catholics.

Were Ireland majority-Protestant, you could end up with a situation where the Protestants were nationalist and the Catholics loyal to Britain, the precise opposite of OTL.

 

[Tripledot]

Maybe a stronger Methodist movement? I have trouble seeing the Church of England converting Ireland unless they're totally culturally assimilated, which doesn't seem possible to me.

 

[jabberwoky]

My immediate reaction to the question is that the Irish already protest everything (check out the fans at the soccer games!)

Thierry Henry was compleatly out of line! Remember Novmember 2009! (Besides, I always thought we were the sound fans at football games, drinking and singing and such. Its the English you want to watch out for...)

As for the question at hand, I coulds certainly see Ireland turn to one non comformist branch or another. I think that Cromwell did much to alianate many Irish to the idea of Protastantsim. There was also some conversion during the famine. Missionarys would give out soup in return for conversion. (where the term taking the soup comes from) Did not have any major reprecussions as far as I know.

 

[Corjomc]

It seems that the British Empire was either not Good enough for Ireland to become Protestant or Evil enough for Ireland to become Protestant

Good Enough, "Hey being part of the British Empire is great, the they treat everyone in Ireland just swell and they truly care, being Protestant is the wave of the future!"

Evil Enough, "Nats will be Lice, we exterminated the Nits, Now for some land grants for our brave soldiers."

 

[Maximilien.]

Not necessarily. Irish nonconformists can be every bit as bolshie as Irish Catholics.

Were Ireland majority-Protestant, you could end up with a situation where the Protestants were nationalist and the Catholics loyal to Britain, the precise opposite of OTL.

Perhaps.

 

[BELFAST]

Thierry Henry was compleatly out of line! Remember Novmember 2009! (Besides, I always thought we were the sound fans at football games, drinking and singing and such. Its the English you want to watch out for...)

As for the question at hand, I coulds certainly see Ireland turn to one non comformist branch or another. I think that Cromwell did much to alianate many Irish to the idea of Protastantsim. There was also some conversion during the famine. Missionarys would give out soup in return for conversion. (where the term taking the soup comes from) Did not have any major reprecussions as far as I know.

Souperism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souperism