That sounds... omnious, even though i'm glad that he is clearly a better person right from the outset.
Pride Goes Before a Fall: A Revolutionary Greece Timeline
- Thread starter Earl Marshal
- Start date
nothing is impossible my friend, nothing is impossible, maybe we will even see an africa only greek
No, no, no. if we’re having any poorly conceived colonial ventures in this thread we’re getting the Greek Desolation Islands. I’ve joked about it enough over the last year in this thread that it’s going to become a reality!!!
Wonder who's gonna get the Congo in this Conference of Africa give the dissolution of Belgium.
Want to really throw a spanner into things? Britain and France both want a largely neutral power to take the territory to keep down border friction between them - especially if such neutral party vows to allow free trade. Yeah: give it to the United States
(Which, actually, would be a fascinating idea to see played out and isn't as impossible as it first sounds. The US was actually a strong early supporter of Leopold's plan - and did have some interests in the region. Not saying EASY to pull this off, but far from being ASB).But a more realistic option would be the Congo being divided between two or three powers. Though if we want a smaller nation to get it, perhaps the Dutch or Danes? Or even Portugal - though I suspect that would overtax their resources.
A Portugal that's even more invested in Africa than they were IOTL where they tried to hold onto their colonies until 1975 sounds like it would get very bloodyWant to really throw a spanner into things? Britain and France both want a largely neutral power to take the territory to keep down border friction between them - especially if such neutral party vows to allow free trade. Yeah: give it to the United States
But a more realistic option would be the Congo being divided between two or three powers. Though if we want a smaller nation to get it, perhaps the Dutch or Danes? Or even Portugal - though I suspect that would overtax their resources.
EbR did this in “Fight and Be Right” and it’s certainly an interesting idea to explore. Teddy Roosevelt gets sent over to manage the herculean task of turning the Free State from a charnel house of brutal exploitation into a model democracy in the heart of Africa (read: still a colony in all but name, but less brutal in how it extracts resources). The African-American community is affected by this change, with many serving in administrative roles in the Free State and military roles in the reformed Public Force. Despite the clear differences in culture and social status between them and the native Congolese population, this does eventually result in some cultural exchange and impacts both the American civil rights movement and the movement for full Congolese independence. In addition, much of the business interests that IOTL went to Central America are diverted to the Free State in FaBR, so American interventionism there is lessened, and there’s even a genre of “Bongo” jungle-themed films that replace Westerns to some extent.Want to really throw a spanner into things? Britain and France both want a largely neutral power to take the territory to keep down border friction between them - especially if such neutral party vows to allow free trade. Yeah: give it to the United States
Hard to split Congo up too much - it's based around "this river mouth and the areas which feed it" - look at how small Congo's coastline is.
I mean if your coming at it strictly from the west coast, sure it’s hard to split up. But nothing is stopping folks from shaving off pieces from other directions. The African Great Lakes on the eastern portion are pretty valuable in and of themselves.
I've really enjoyed following this timeline over the last couple of years, but I don't believe I've ever commented here before, and since I had a few idle thoughts and questions regarding the Balkans ITTL I figured it was high time to rectify that.
Firstly with the Danubian principalities being freed from the Ottomans, it seems likely that they will be unified fairly soon (if they haven't already). Since Russia will have a great deal more influence over this process ITTL, is their any chance that the Wallachians and Moldavians will settle on a different name for their new kingdom than Romania? IIRC the Greek Plan of the 1780's had planned on uniting the principalities in the Kingdom of Dacia, and since the Russians liked to portray themselves as the third Rome, would they be cool with their vassal kingdom proclaiming itself as Romania? I don't know how much the Romanians themselves would care about the name for their new kingdom, but if the Russians end up forcing them to pick and exonym, maybe it could make them a bit more apprehensive about their new patrons?
Another thought I had is about Bosnia ITTL and whether or not it could potentially be feasible for an independent (even if only nominally) Muslim kingdom to exist in the region. The Ottomans will almost certainly end up loosing their grip on the region, but unlike OTL the Habsburgs might not be in a position to grab all of it for themselves. Similarly they presumably wouldn't want Serbia to have it either, as that would threaten their hold on Croatia. Is there any chance then, in the interest of regional stability that the Austrians might support an independent Muslim buffer state in the region? I don't know how the great powers would react to this, but with the British and French having couped the pro-Russian Serbian government, maybe Russia could either support the Austrians against the Serbs in this matter or just not oppose them? If the Hungarians have plans of reclaiming Croatia, they might potentially also support this as a smaller Croatia would be easier to integrate, and similarly they also wouldn't want the Serbs to have it. Alternatively Serbia and Austria might also just end up carving up the whole area in a way that satisfies both parties, but I think the idea of an independent Muslim Bosnia existing in the Balkans in this era would be fascinating - even if it probably is very unlikely.
Firstly with the Danubian principalities being freed from the Ottomans, it seems likely that they will be unified fairly soon (if they haven't already). Since Russia will have a great deal more influence over this process ITTL, is their any chance that the Wallachians and Moldavians will settle on a different name for their new kingdom than Romania? IIRC the Greek Plan of the 1780's had planned on uniting the principalities in the Kingdom of Dacia, and since the Russians liked to portray themselves as the third Rome, would they be cool with their vassal kingdom proclaiming itself as Romania? I don't know how much the Romanians themselves would care about the name for their new kingdom, but if the Russians end up forcing them to pick and exonym, maybe it could make them a bit more apprehensive about their new patrons?
Another thought I had is about Bosnia ITTL and whether or not it could potentially be feasible for an independent (even if only nominally) Muslim kingdom to exist in the region. The Ottomans will almost certainly end up loosing their grip on the region, but unlike OTL the Habsburgs might not be in a position to grab all of it for themselves. Similarly they presumably wouldn't want Serbia to have it either, as that would threaten their hold on Croatia. Is there any chance then, in the interest of regional stability that the Austrians might support an independent Muslim buffer state in the region? I don't know how the great powers would react to this, but with the British and French having couped the pro-Russian Serbian government, maybe Russia could either support the Austrians against the Serbs in this matter or just not oppose them? If the Hungarians have plans of reclaiming Croatia, they might potentially also support this as a smaller Croatia would be easier to integrate, and similarly they also wouldn't want the Serbs to have it. Alternatively Serbia and Austria might also just end up carving up the whole area in a way that satisfies both parties, but I think the idea of an independent Muslim Bosnia existing in the Balkans in this era would be fascinating - even if it probably is very unlikely.
A kingdom of Dacia would make sense and is one of my favourite names for alternate names for Romania.
On Bosnia I'd think we'd get a buffer made of Bosnia and whatever coast they give them. The state would be insanely fragile though and I'd think it'd collapse as the croats and Serbs tussle over control over their patch of the Balkans.
Would it necessarily be that fragile though? It's my impression that the demographics of Ottoman Bosnia looked quite different from the later Habsburg and Yugoslav periods as thousands of Muslims emigrated from the country after it was annexed by the Habsburgs. If they were instead given independence, these people would presumably choose to stick around potentially making it a more viable state. Also thinking a bit more on the great powers, I could see Italy (if the various Italian states have united by that point) support the independence of Bosnia, as they will have their own ambitions on Dalmatia and would therefore prefer to keep Croatia and Serbia away from Bosnia. Since this is a Greek timeline maybe I should also point out that an independent Bosnia might also benefit the Greeks slightly, if that means fewer pro-Ottoman muslim Bosnians fleeing south. I will not claim to be particularly knowledgable on Balkan history, but it seems to me that Balkan muslims had a really rough period following the collapse of the Ottomans, so it would be nice to see them thrive in some areas ITTL where they didn't in OTL
Idk but I do feel Bosnia and Herzegovina would have croats and Serbs in it much like otl (or is it a 20th century thing?) It's also invadable since Austria and Greece/Serbia Vs Italy isn't going to be fun espicially if they're splitting Bosnia between themselves much like Poland.
I'm just hoping the Hungarians get a port in Fiume, literally nobody on this site has written a Hungary that is even able to keep its borders let alone achieve minor strategic objectives in the region. Even in CP victory timelines Hungary still dissolves into ethnic states despite not having gone thru the clusterfuck that was the end of OTL WWI as a defeated power. Hungary and Greece could also have some strategic benefits to cooperation against some of the Balkan minors, but this ignores Orthodox Greece's affinity for the Orthodox Serbs and Romanians over the Catholic/Protestant Hungarians. Maybe a Hungarian-Serbian-Greek alliance would be able to work if Serbia could obtain enough irredenta to make up for not getting Vojvodina.
Fiume’s fate seems much more tied to the fortunes of Italy than Hungary in my opinion. The city speaks Italian and the population considered itself Italian. Anything can happen obviously and at the moment Italy is a bit of a mess. But I find it hard to see it staying out of Italian or Croatian hands. While there’s no reason for this timeline to punish Hungary, it does have the issue that most of its neighbors want pieces of it and it’s got several regions with ethnic minorities that are majorities locally. That’s not conducive to maintaining stable borders.
The Serbian Hungarian alliance is hard to see too. It has more to gain from allying against Hungary than with it.
As for the Talk of Bosnia, if it was created it would be stronger and more stable than the Bosnia of OTL due to a higher percentage of Bosnians in the area. It would face very similar issues to the ones Hungary does when it has larger borders. There’s restless minorities with different religious beliefs, and your neighbors want parts of your core territory. It’s best bet would be to try and come to an understanding with one of the neighbors eying it up, give them what they want, and get an alliance against the other one.
I'd think we'd see Bosnia split between Serbia and Austria (Croatia).
The biggest threat to an independent Bosnia is always going to be Serbia and/or Croatia. Given Habsburg weakness ITTL, I’d guess it comes down to Hungary; do they step up and become the regional hegemon of the northern Balkans, which would hamper Serbia and Croatia, or are they crippled by separatism? In the latter case Bosnia likely eventually ends up partitioned by Slavic states and maybe even Italy for the coast; even if great powers initially set it up they won’t care to support a Muslim state as much.
What about the oddball possibility of a Christian Bosnia being set up with the Serbian minority?
What about the oddball possibility of a Christian Bosnia being set up with the Serbian minority?
The issue with it being a regional hegemon is it has to many rivals locally. Romania, Serbia, and the remnants of the Austrian empire all have a bone to pick with Hungary. And who gains from supporting them? Prussia maybe, as it’s existence weakens Austria significantly? I doubt that’s enough for them to get any sort of defensive guarantees. Sure Hungary might be able to fight off all of the jackals on its borders on its own, but I have a hard time seeing it. Hungary in the modern period lacks many, if any, natural allies. Bulgaria would be its best bet as she has claims on land in Serbia and Romania to encourage such an alliance. But that might also draw in Greece if she contests any Bulgarian territory.
Honestly looking at this domino effect I wonder if Hungary isn’t the flashpoint that starts the equivalent of the First World War.
Tbf Hungary/Russia/Bulgaria/France/Ottomans Vs Britain/Prussia/Austria/Greece/Netherlands would be fun, with Hungary taking Serbia's place and Russia coming in to help Hungary while Prussia comes in to help Austria. And the war ends with Prussia marrying a female Hapsburg and forming the United Kaiserreich would be fun.
Also Hungary being a regional hegemon makes no sense. Greece-Serbia seem like the ones that would make the most sense.
On other things if things gone differently I could see a united Scandinavia forming unlike otl. Scandinavianism is a thing after all, and I could see them forming into a single nation if they get lucky.