PC: Germany Unified by a State Other than Prussia or Austria

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
IOTL, Prussia became powerful through its military and some of its incorporation of other German territories allowed it to play a decisive role in the unification of Germany, while Austria could have also gotten a chance to unify the German lands if it wasn't for Prussia.

Now, was it possible that "Germany" could have been unified by any other German state other than those two? Here are some candidates that I would have thought of:

- Saxony
- Bavaria
- Hannover
- Denmark
- Netherlands
- Westphalia

Any other thoughts on which German states could have unified Germany?
 

profxyz

If the Liberal Revolution of 1848 had happened and overthrown Prussia and Austria I don't see why idealistic students wouldn't all unite under the city of Frankfurt.

Oh, you want a PoD earlier than that.

The most obvious candidate is the Palatinate/Bohemia. Have Friedrich Falcky survive the opening stages of the Thirty Years War in Prague, and he should be able to hold on long enough for Protestant intervention by Sweden, the shock of which could force the Habsburgs to surrender the throne, Bohemia and the Empire (which in turn would be weakened by concessions to France and Sweden, no doubt). Then you'd have Austria replaced by Bohemia, which could have a reasonable shot at uniting Germany in the 19th Century.

Bavaria is another good shot if you have an Austrian loss in the War of the Austrian Succession.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
profxyz said:
If the Liberal Revolution of 1848 had happened and overthrown Prussia and Austria I don't see why idealistic students wouldn't all unite under the city of Frankfurt.

Oh, you want a PoD earlier than that.

The most obvious candidate is the Palatinate/Bohemia. Have Friedrich Falcky survive the opening stages of the Thirty Years War in Prague, and he should be able to hold on long enough for Protestant intervention by Sweden, the shock of which could force the Habsburgs to surrender the throne, Bohemia and the Empire (which in turn would be weakened by concessions to France and Sweden, no doubt). Then you'd have Austria replaced by Bohemia, which could have a reasonable shot at uniting Germany in the 19th Century.

Bavaria is another good shot if you have an Austrian loss in the War of the Austrian Succession.
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But Bohemia is a Slavic speaking nation though, consisting of Czechs. Then again, I did suggest two non-German states, so that might be fine. But how can Bohemia unify the German states though.
 
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JCVocke

Not to mention the problem that this hypothetical Bohemia-Palatinate would be much weaker than the historical Austria, and even the rump Austria would probably be more powerful, and the Palatinate wouldn't have any real support from any foreign nations.

They could try to get the support of France and Sweden but neither would actually be interested in strengthening the Palatinate, but both would prefer to keep it divided, so the second the Palatinate starts "Uniting" anything resembling Germany you'll see both France and Sweden immediately jump ship and start fighting them.

Also I find it hilarious that you think "The Shock" of Sweden intervening would make Austria just give up. Because if there's one thing that characterizes the pre-Napoleon Austrian Habsburgs its a willingness to give up thrones they felt they had a claim to...
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
JCVocke said:
Not to mention the problem that this hypothetical Bohemia-Palatinate would be much weaker than the historical Austria, and even the rump Austria would probably be more powerful, and the Palatinate wouldn't have any real support from any foreign nations.

They could try to get the support of France and Sweden but neither would actually be interested in strengthening the Palatinate, but both would prefer to keep it divided, so the second the Palatinate starts "Uniting" anything resembling Germany you'll see both France and Sweden immediately jump ship and start fighting them.

Also I find it hilarious that you think "The Shock" of Sweden intervening would make Austria just give up. Because if there's one thing that characterizes the pre-Napoleon Austrian Habsburgs its a willingness to give up thrones they felt they had a claim to...
Click to expand...

The main reason why I suggested Westphalia in the first place is because I haven't seen a TL where a German state in the western region (close to the Netherlands) actually pulls a Prussia (rises to the top) and becomes the dominant kingdom.
 

Emperor Constantine

MarshalBraginsky said:
The main reason why I suggested Westphalia in the first place is because I haven't seen a TL where a German state in the western region (close to the Netherlands) actually pulls a Prussia (rises to the top) and becomes the dominant kingdom.
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Yeah there's a reason for that: NONE of those states were powerful enough to do that. They were all minor states at best. Really its highly unrealistic that any state other then Prussia or Austria would be able to unite Germany.
 

AussieHawker

Banned
MrHaakwood said:
Hi
I think another one could be the Confederation of the Rhine. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_the_Rhine

Greetz, Haaki
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Maybe a idea would be that Prussia and Austria are forced into it and broken up a little bit to ensure it doesn't turn into greater Austria or Prussia. However Napoleon deep in Russia suffers a Massive defeat and is killed in the fighting and nearly the entire French army with him is Defeated. In the Chaos as Napoleons siblings fight for power the Confederation declares Independence as Germany. They might then join in to smash France with Great Britain to grab some of the Netherlands or Eastern France.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
AussieHawker said:
Maybe a idea would be that Prussia and Austria are forced into it and broken up a little bit to ensure it doesn't turn into greater Austria or Prussia. However Napoleon deep in Russia suffers a Massive defeat and is killed in the fighting and nearly the entire French army with him is Defeated. In the Chaos as Napoleons siblings fight for power the Confederation declares Independence as Germany. They might then join in to smash France with Great Britain to grab some of the Netherlands or Eastern France.
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This might be a really good idea, even though the PoD is a bit late. Still, the Confederation of the Rhine as Germany, would they still have a monarchy and who will lead it?
 

Bee

Back in the 1500s, Brandenburg was just one of several mid-ranking states, and Prussia proper wasn't even part of Germany. It's not all that hard to allow events to develop in a way such that Brandenburg/Prussia doesn't rise above the others.

As a start, there was nothing inevitable about the unification of Brandenburg with Prussia: that acquisition resulted from a lucky dynastic accident. Non-Hohenzollerns could easily have headed the Teutonic Order throughout the entire early modern period, and it was not inevitable that its leaders couldn't continue to be elected, or that a different dynasty would rule there.

Gaining Prussia greatly increased Brandenburg's power in the long run. Other states could have risen instead if they had taken better advantage of their chances to acquire outside kingdoms. A better man than Frederick V at the start of the Thirty Years War (already mentioned in this thread) could have held Bohemia, and the rule of the Saxon kings in Poland could have turned out less dismally than it did under other circumstances (e.g., a less aggressive Sweden and Russia, or a Saxon elected much earlier than OTL).
 

NotYetRegistered

Charles VII of Bavaria becomes permanent Holy Roman Emperor as well as his descendants and annexes Bohemia with the help of France and other parts in the Austrian War of Succession. I don't know where to go from there.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Bee said:
Back in the 1500s, Brandenburg was just one of several mid-ranking states, and Prussia proper wasn't even part of Germany. It's not all that hard to allow events to develop in a way such that Brandenburg/Prussia doesn't rise above the others.

As a start, there was nothing inevitable about the unification of Brandenburg with Prussia: that acquisition resulted from a lucky dynastic accident. Non-Hohenzollerns could easily have headed the Teutonic Order throughout the entire early modern period, and it was not inevitable that its leaders couldn't continue to be elected, or that a different dynasty would rule there.

Gaining Prussia greatly increased Brandenburg's power in the long run. Other states could have risen instead if they had taken better advantage of their chances to acquire outside kingdoms. A better man than Frederick V at the start of the Thirty Years War (already mentioned in this thread) could have held Bohemia, and the rule of the Saxon kings in Poland could have turned out less dismally than it did under other circumstances (e.g., a less aggressive Sweden and Russia, or a Saxon elected much earlier than OTL).
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One of those events that could have been described as an early ASB event that actually happened, right? The union between Brandenburg and Prussia?
 

Escape Zeppelin

I don't know enough about German history but without the rise of Prussia is it possible to have a much more equal unification? For example if Germany still hasn't been united by say 1900, the different German states form a kind of constitutional congress. A Germany that starts with a federal system would be interesting.
 

Just a Rube

JCVocke said:
Not to mention the problem that this hypothetical Bohemia-Palatinate would be much weaker than the historical Austria, and even the rump Austria would probably be more powerful, and the Palatinate wouldn't have any real support from any foreign nations.

They could try to get the support of France and Sweden but neither would actually be interested in strengthening the Palatinate, but both would prefer to keep it divided, so the second the Palatinate starts "Uniting" anything resembling Germany you'll see both France and Sweden immediately jump ship and start fighting them.

Also I find it hilarious that you think "The Shock" of Sweden intervening would make Austria just give up. Because if there's one thing that characterizes the pre-Napoleon Austrian Habsburgs its a willingness to give up thrones they felt they had a claim to...
Click to expand...
It's not like Prussia was more powerful than Austria for most of it's history, and yet they eventually unified. A Palatinate-Bohemian personal union would be a strong enough state to be worthy of consideration (for that matter, just the pre-war Palatinate was considered a reasonably strong power by HRE standards) and would have access to many of the resources (e.g. Silesia) that allowed Prussia to rise. While it wouldn't be in any position to unify right away, it could become the de facto Protestant power in Germany, and eventually take over Prussia's role as chief German rival and eventual unifier. Especially since an Imperial defeat early in the Hundred Years War will likely see Austria lose a lot more than just Bohemia; remember that the Turks still control most of Hungary, and most of Austria was Protestant (and had welcomed the various Protestant invaders).
 

Albireo Dreamweaver

Escape Zeppelin said:
I don't know enough about German history but without the rise of Prussia is it possible to have a much more equal unification? For example if Germany still hasn't been united by say 1900, the different German states form a kind of constitutional congress. A Germany that starts with a federal system would be interesting.
Click to expand...

Depends, because without Prussia's rise you still have Austria bullying everyone. It's certainly an interesting idea, though. If you sufficiently weaken Austria and Prussia both, you could well end up with a confederation-type system, possibly even modeled on the Netherlands (unlikely).

If you want a very, very early PoD, why not just keep Austria out of the leading role entirely by never having them get elected in the first place?
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Just a Rube said:
It's not like Prussia was more powerful than Austria for most of it's history, and yet they eventually unified. A Palatinate-Bohemian personal union would be a strong enough state to be worthy of consideration (for that matter, just the pre-war Palatinate was considered a reasonably strong power by HRE standards) and would have access to many of the resources (e.g. Silesia) that allowed Prussia to rise. While it wouldn't be in any position to unify right away, it could become the de facto Protestant power in Germany, and eventually take over Prussia's role as chief German rival and eventual unifier. Especially since an Imperial defeat early in the Hundred Years War will likely see Austria lose a lot more than just Bohemia; remember that the Turks still control most of Hungary, and most of Austria was Protestant (and had welcomed the various Protestant invaders).
Click to expand...

Was Bohemia's majority speakers German or Czech?

Another thing too, was Westphalia a part of the Palatinate?
 

CthulhuFhtagn

Banned
With a PoD far enough back, Bavaria or some kind of Hanoverian/Westphalian states are possibilities. If you go all the way back to the 15th century, just about any German state could be a potential candidate (Hesse, Brunswick, Saxony, etc.).
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
CthulhuFhtagn said:
With a PoD far enough back, Bavaria or some kind of Hanoverian/Westphalian states are possibilities. If you go all the way back to the 15th century, just about any German state could be a potential candidate (Hesse, Brunswick, Saxony, etc.).
Click to expand...

How far back are we talking about here?
 

freivolk

The main reason that Germany was united by Prussia is, that one prussian king was obsessed with his army, the next king used that army and all following kings realized they always needed the army. The same could have happen in any other state.
 
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