Operation Unthinkable

[Adam]

As ASB as Sealion.

Well Operation Unthinkable quickly results in an embarrassing farce. Solders on the line aren’t chess- pieces to be moved around and sacrificed. The vast majority of US solders bluntly refuse orders to attack the Soviets in a few extreme cases enlisted men and NCO’s shoot their officers. A few units under the command of particularly charismatic or iron-willed officers do attack but are quickly halted or driven back due to lack of support.

The situation in the British/Empire Army is a little better but they make up a small minority of Western Allied forces and in any case aren’t too keen on fighting either. Once the situation with the US Army becomes clear British-Canadian efforts sputter out too.

Stalin is apoplectic with fury, but canny enough to see the problems the Allied Armies face, so rather than send his own battle-weary troops westwards he conducts a skilful propaganda campaign aimed at the Western Allied population. This is successful and once a peace deal is agreed with the humiliated Allies, the Soviets make significant gains for no real cost. Allied treachery and Soviet restraint has greatly boosted the U.S.S.R prestige in direct proportion to the decline of US-UK prestige and international standing.

Churchill the old lion, is too much a hero to be simply forced from offices. He resigns and salvages some of his reputation but this latest act of folly significantly mars his historic reputation.

Truman is impeached and removed from office and indeed is fortunate to avoid imprisonment. The American political lexicon is given two new terms. ‘’Going Truman’’ describing any politician who embarks on a tremendously ill-advised course of action. And ‘’Trumanized’’ for any politician who goes bat-shit insane or dose something crazy without any warning signs.

I think that's quite an exaggeration erring to ASB itself!

 

[Urban fox]

Which part is ASB pray tell.

1 ) The fact that Western Allied solders simply wont fight?

2) That the men responsible for this monumental fuck-up aren’t removed from office?

3) That the Soviets wont gain/demand concessions in the aftermath?

4) That Truman wont become a byword for going bat-shit insane overnight?

 

[Adam]

Which part is ASB pray tell.

1 ) The fact that Western Allied solders simply wont fight?

2) That the men responsible for this monumental fuck-up aren’t removed from office?

3) That the Soviets wont gain/demand concessions in the aftermath?

4) That Truman wont become a byword for going bat-shit insane overnight?

Of course, this is an inherently ASB scenario itself, so there.

 

[Urban fox]

Indeed Operation Unthinkable is rather ASB and the reasons I give outline why this is so, but then again you never can tell. Odder things have happened throughout history.

1) Towards the end of the war the morale of US solders was at low ebb. This was highly worrisome to the US high-command, also public tolerance for the war and associated losses was also reaching it’s limit. Indeed the Western Allies started to relay very heavily on air-power and artillery firepower to overwhelm the Germans reducing the need for infantry to enter prolonged combat.

Your average GI is relived beyond measure the war in Europe is over and is praying not to be sent to the Pacific to fight Japan. Tell him out of the blue he now has to march to bloody Poland and he will mutiny. The USA is a democracy it’s army cant just impulsively enter major wars like this.

The British Army is in somewhat better shape on this front, mostly due to British stiff-upper lip fatalism.

2) Truman and Churcill, will be removed thats simply how things stand in 1945. If this insane idea went forward. Hell much of the Amry brass would be lucky to keep their jobs too.

3) The last part is just somthing I'm assuming based on how US and British media/politics work. Truman would get some sort of derogatory nickname/slang term on the back of this farce.

 

[The Red]

The whole scenario's ASB, although there is a good chance for allied success, albeit with horrendous casualties. What would happen afterwards would be interesting however.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I don't think it's ASB at all.

A CALCULATED decision to fight each other may well be, but in the confusion of the end of WWII, Red Army troops firing on WAlly troops (or vice versa), whether completely accidentally or at the orders of an over zealous officer of some level. That could easily escalate, and e.g. once the Sovietss have over-run a couple of significant western units, I could see Stalin saying 'go for it'.

More likely, the Soviets over-run some western units, Western leaders demand 'compensation' (some trivial border adjustments, say), Stalin refuses, things escalate.

Or Western troops over-run a couple of Soviet regiments, and Stalin makes demands that are unacceptable.


If the West can portray it as it as 'Stalin stabbing us in the back' (which would have to be the case for it to work properly, at least from the western viewpoint), then morale, while dropping for a while (as, yes, people thought they were going home), would likely pick up sufficiently.

Lots of e.g. Americans were never really happy supporting the Communists in the first place, and Churchill only viewed Stalin as better than Hitler, which isn't saying much.

Of course, the French communists would be really obnoxious to the Western war effort.

OTOH, we could likely get Franco to contribute troops against the Soviets (if paid, fed and armed by the US). Similarly, the Turks are NOT going to be happy with a resurgent Russia and might well come in on the western side.

 

[Born in USSR !!))]

Operation Non-sense-thinkable

it was the greatest (and, hopefully, ultimate) victory of Good over evil the recorded history has ever known. Our people did an effort absolutely beyond human power, an effort so magnificent and noble normal words just can't express !!!!!!!!!! The World must be INFINITELY and IMMESURABLY grateful to the "commies" that saved the world and lives and future for the families of these lily ass junk idiots who still fucking dare to downplay the enormous and overwhelming deed of our immensely heroic and, to say the least, supernaturally powerful fucking cool and hard ancestors thanks to which many bastards that babble their tongues over here on utube, having just learnt a few english words and read some yellow press on some history, not live in concentration camps and daily suck the nazi dicks for a loaf bread and without any chance to be anything more than miserable slaves forever. ETERNAL GLORY to our HEROES !!! and please forgive me, you noble warriors, some language i used here - i guess you wouldn't like it.
ETERNAL GLORY !!!!!!!!!)))))))))))))))))))))*)))))))
This VICTORY was won with 40 milliion victims of the Soviet people, with fkesh and blood of our brave soldiers who struggled night day, bit by bit, stone by stone to defeat the nazi beast !! They made it with their hands and, most important, with the strongest inner spiritual power the history has ever known !! Now many losses were suffered on the part of the Allies ? Without looking that up in pedias one can say definitely and straight away: nowhere near !! The figures practically compare as the speed of light to that of a bycicle !! And what happened next ? The Allies came to Berlin "when the dinner was ready and prepared" by millions of Soviet bloods !! And they didn't even have the conscience to recognize the generosity of the "hosts" and, what's more, even wanted to skip paying and, moreover, to steel the trophy so hard-earned and honestly deserved by our longsuffering brave warriors !!
know why the Operation Unthinkable devised by Churchill would be a complete fail ? Not only and not mainly because the USSR dominated the Allied forces in Europe 4:1 in soldiers and 2:1 in tanks. But because The Soviet Soldiers were steel-hardened in fiercest battles ever fought - unlike the the British and American soldiers whose war, so much hailed by Hollywood films, compared to the horrors suffered by our fighters was more like a pleasant travel through the unresisting remains of the nazi war machine. But the most important of all is the Spirit, the unimaginable steel-strong Holy Spirit of the righteous war against the evil, the highest discipline, honorable, humanistic and benevolent morale is what made our People the unquestioned, absolute, supreme and total victors and a force not only be counted with out of fear but out of infinite respect, veneration, gratitude, cherish, utmost esteem and admiration !! ETERNAL GLORY our HEROES !!
p.s.: so Churchill wanted to "save" Poland and Europe from the "commies"? Save from whom - from their LIBERATORS ?!! Yes, there perhaps really were some things to blame USSR for some actions in Eastern Europe from 1945 to 1991. But the fact is that we brought PEACE and, anyway, FREEDOM to our brother peoples in Europe. (or maybe they really liked hitler, the concentration camps and war? Well then, please excuse our soldiers they liberated you). But what did Churchill, France, and others do when the nazis occupied half of Europe in less than two years, while by international treaties they had previosly signed they were obliged to stop the aggressor ? Is is well known what: look on and wait as the shark was swallowing more and more pray, including that notorious Poland Churchill made pretend he so much cared of, at fantastically speedy rates... well, yes, who knows ? perhaps Stalin really had a plan to continue promoting the Communist Revolution to the rest of Europe..And then the Churchill's concern was not that ungrounded..
BUT THE MAIN THING is that the GREAT SOVIET PEOPLE and its GREAT ARMY made that GLORIOUS VICTORY in hopefully last such war almost solely on their own sholders. And its really offending to still hear, read or see some scoundrels doubt, sully and downgrade that absolute fact !!
i don't want to downplay the role of the ALLIES either. They also had their important peace of struggle and loss and suffering, And withotut them the defeat of the nazi monster and imperialistic Japan would be, to say the least times more comlicated.
But, again and again, the incommesurably larger bitter lot of struggle lay on the shouders of our SOVIET WARRIORS !!
ETERNAL GLORY, GOD BLESS YOU, IMMORTAL MEMORY to YOU, OUR HEROES !!!!!!!!! AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*!!!!!!!!!!! Eternal Glory, God Bless You, Immortal Memory to You,
SOVIET HEROES of OUR MOTHER EARTH !!!! AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

 

[Sior]

it was the greatest (and, hopefully, ultimate) victory of Good over evil the recorded history has ever known. Our people did an effort absolutely beyond human power, an effort so magnificent and noble normal words just can't express !!!!!!!!!! The World must be INFINITELY and IMMESURABLY grateful to the "commies" that saved the world and lives and future for the families of these lily ass junk idiots who still fucking dare to downplay the enormous and overwhelming deed of our immensely heroic and, to say the least, supernaturally powerful fucking cool and hard ancestors thanks to which many bastards that babble their tongues over here on utube, having just learnt a few english words and read some yellow press on some history, not live in concentration camps and daily suck the nazi dicks for a loaf bread and without any chance to be anything more than miserable slaves forever. ETERNAL GLORY to our HEROES !!! and please forgive me, you noble warriors, some language i used here - i guess you wouldn't like it.
ETERNAL GLORY !!!!!!!!!)))))))))))))))))))))*)))))))
This VICTORY was won with 40 milliion victims of the Soviet people, with fkesh and blood of our brave soldiers who struggled night day, bit by bit, stone by stone to defeat the nazi beast !! They made it with their hands and, most important, with the strongest inner spiritual power the history has ever known !! Now many losses were suffered on the part of the Allies ? Without looking that up in pedias one can say definitely and straight away: nowhere near !! The figures practically compare as the speed of light to that of a bycicle !! And what happened next ? The Allies came to Berlin "when the dinner was ready and prepared" by millions of Soviet bloods !! And they didn't even have the conscience to recognize the generosity of the "hosts" and, what's more, even wanted to skip paying and, moreover, to steel the trophy so hard-earned and honestly deserved by our longsuffering brave warriors !!
know why the Operation Unthinkable devised by Churchill would be a complete fail ? Not only and not mainly because the USSR dominated the Allied forces in Europe 4:1 in soldiers and 2:1 in tanks. But because The Soviet Soldiers were steel-hardened in fiercest battles ever fought - unlike the the British and American soldiers whose war, so much hailed by Hollywood films, compared to the horrors suffered by our fighters was more like a pleasant travel through the unresisting remains of the nazi war machine. But the most important of all is the Spirit, the unimaginable steel-strong Holy Spirit of the righteous war against the evil, the highest discipline, honorable, humanistic and benevolent morale is what made our People the unquestioned, absolute, supreme and total victors and a force not only be counted with out of fear but out of infinite respect, veneration, gratitude, cherish, utmost esteem and admiration !! ETERNAL GLORY our HEROES !!
p.s.: so Churchill wanted to "save" Poland and Europe from the "commies"? Save from whom - from their LIBERATORS ?!! Yes, there perhaps really were some things to blame USSR for some actions in Eastern Europe from 1945 to 1991. But the fact is that we brought PEACE and, anyway, FREEDOM to our brother peoples in Europe. (or maybe they really liked hitler, the concentration camps and war? Well then, please excuse our soldiers they liberated you). But what did Churchill, France, and others do when the nazis occupied half of Europe in less than two years, while by international treaties they had previosly signed they were obliged to stop the aggressor ? Is is well known what: look on and wait as the shark was swallowing more and more pray, including that notorious Poland Churchill made pretend he so much cared of, at fantastically speedy rates... well, yes, who knows ? perhaps Stalin really had a plan to continue promoting the Communist Revolution to the rest of Europe..And then the Churchill's concern was not that ungrounded..
BUT THE MAIN THING is that the GREAT SOVIET PEOPLE and its GREAT ARMY made that GLORIOUS VICTORY in hopefully last such war almost solely on their own sholders. And its really offending to still hear, read or see some scoundrels doubt, sully and downgrade that absolute fact !!
i don't want to downplay the role of the ALLIES either. They also had their important peace of struggle and loss and suffering, And withotut them the defeat of the nazi monster and imperialistic Japan would be, to say the least times more comlicated.
But, again and again, the incommesurably larger bitter lot of struggle lay on the shouders of our SOVIET WARRIORS !!
ETERNAL GLORY, GOD BLESS YOU, IMMORTAL MEMORY to YOU, OUR HEROES !!!!!!!!! AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*!!!!!!!!!!! Eternal Glory, God Bless You, Immortal Memory to You,
SOVIET HEROES of OUR MOTHER EARTH !!!! AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

They travelled there on British and American trucks ate British and American food!

1. As a result of the Soviet takeover, Estonia permanently lost at least 200,000 people or 20% of its population to repression, exodus and war.
2. Some 300,000 Lithuanians were deported or sentenced to prison camps on political grounds. It is estimated that Lithuania lost almost 780,000 citizens as a result of Soviet occupation, of which around 440,000 were war refugees.
3. During the years 1939–41, nearly 1.5 million inhabitants of the Soviet-controlled areas of former eastern Poland were deported, of whom 63.1% were Poles or other nationalities and 7.4% were Jews. Only a small number of these deportees survived the war.
4. Between 1941–1944, Soviet partisan units conducted raids deep inside Finnish territory, attacking villages and other civilian targets. In November 2006, photographs showing atrocities were declassified by the Finnish authorities. These include images of slain women and children.Around 3,500 Finnish prisoners of war, of whom five were women, were captured by the Red Army. Their mortality rate is estimated about 40 percent. Most common causes of deaths were hunger, cold and oppressive transportation.
5. A study published by the German government in 1989 estimated the death toll of German civilians in eastern Europe at 635,000. With 270,000 dying as the result of Soviet war crimes, 160,000 deaths occurring at the hands of various nationalities during the expulsion of Germans after World War II and 205,000 deaths in the forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union.These figures do not include at least 125,000 civilian deaths in the Battle of Berlin.Although, according to a study at the German Federal Archives of 1974, at least half a million were murdered directly, succumbing to beatings, dying of rape, shooting etc., a million and a half died as a direct consequence of the expulsions, since these were brutal and disorderly and Germany was in a state of total collapse upon their arrival. Moreover, nearly two million East Germans were carted off to slave labour in the Soviet Union and some 40% of them perished on the way to the Urals and Siberia, during slave labour, or during their repatriation. Following the Red Army's capture of Berlin in 1945, Soviet troops raped German women and girls as young as eight years old. Estimates of the total number of victims range from tens of thousands to two million.
6. During the Siege of Budapest in Hungary, some 40,000 civilians were killed, with an unknown number dying from starvation and diseases. During the siege, an estimated 50,000 women and girls were raped.
7. Although the Red Army crossed only a very small part of Yugoslavia in 1944, its activities there caused great concern for the Yugoslav communist partisans, who feared that the rapes and plundering by their Soviet allies would weaken their standing with the population. At least 121 cases of rape were documented later, 111 of which also involved murder.
8. the Soviets made it a policy to loot and rape civilians in Manchuria. The same Russian troops from Germany had been sent to Manchuria and looted, killed and raped. In Harbin, the Chinese posted slogans such as "Down with Red Imperialism!" Soviet forces ignored protests from Chinese communist party leaders on their mass rape and loot policy.

 

[ivanotter]

We have to remember one little thing:

USSR would not be the agresor. US/UK would

It was scheduled that 100,000 German soldiers would be enrolled for the Barbarossa 2.0 scheme.

Whether they would be happy to march East again is a good guess. Monty was asked to store German equipment as it would be needed.

It was supposed to be a surprise attack on USSR by US/UK.

When we last had a go as this I had the following comment:

Just the mere thought of it, if it had been made public, would have kicked Churchill out. Never mind if it were not even launched, but even just having it out in the open would be enough.

The other one: On the German army: Heer and SS? how would Poland look at being liberated by another batch of SS?

Equipment: Melt down the Shermans and build Tiger II instead. More MG 42's, Me 262 for USAAF and RAF

A totally unrealistic plan and soemthing which should never even have been thought up, even in Churchill's rather fertiel brain.

Ivan

 

[Imladrik]

Anyone really think this operation could work ? French troops (1.2 millions men) won't fight. In fact, France might be forced to proclaim total neutrality. Commies had a quarter of the vote in 45. Socialists another quarter. De Gaulle would not even try to join this future clusterfuck. As a result logistics are a mess. Add this to the opinion (and the soldiers) in the US or the UK that was told yesterday that Popov is their friend and now it is their ennemy, and this whole mess would be a net win for Stalin.

Italy may have the same problem as France as Commies and Socialists had more than 50% of the votes in 45 IIRC.

 

[Athelstane]

Hello Sior,

Thanks for the dose of reality on the darker side of the Soviet war effort.

It would have been very difficult to defeat the Nazis without Stalin; but his victory came at a horrific price for many in Eastern Europe.

 

[omnimercurial]

Rape is indefensible at any time.

Its important to remember though just how much of the same or worse was inflicted on the Soviets & Eastern Peoples by Germany & Its Allies within the Axis & Occupied Nations.

 

[LestWeForget]

A couple of points I would like to raise:

1. Wasn't the USSR economically devastated at the end of the war? Not to mention the fatigue it's troops must have felt after 4 years of one of the most barbaric campaigns in history. Comparatively, weren't the Western Allies(especially the Americans) relatively fresh?

2. I've read that the Western Allies had anywhere from 3.5-4.5 million troops in Europe near the end of the war, and the USSR had anywhere from 6.5-10 million. Which figures are accurate?

3. Was the Western Allied airpower superior in quantity, quality, or both?

4. Is there any question that by this point the years of hard campaigning had made the Soviet ground forces far superior? I mean in the last year of the war the Soviets were just punching through and overwhelming the best/bulk of German forces in the East while the Allies kept getting bogged down in France and Italy against inferior forces.

5. If the political willpower was there, and the West told Stalin to pull back or risk war, would he have backed down? He always seemed most concerned with survival and calculated risk vs. someone like Hitler who viewed everything as an ideological struggle. Or do you think his confidence was bolstered by the military might of the USSR at this point, combined with the knowledge that the West didn't have the willpower to really impose terms on him?

 

[ivanotter]

The entire ideas was ... unthinkable...

It would be a totally unwarranted and raw display of agression on the side of UK.

Churchill even toyed with the idea of more nuclear bombs. Apparantly he had a comment at Postdom along the lines of: "Stalin better behave, otherwise we can always hurl a bomb at Moscow and one at Kiev and so on".

The plan talks about the usage of the German forces. This is fascinating: Poland "liberated" by SS.

Ivan

 

[Orry]

Rape is indefensible at any time.

Its important to remember though just how much of the same or worse was inflicted on the Soviets & Eastern Peoples by Germany & Its Allies within the Axis & Occupied Nations.

The crimes of your enemies do not justify acting in the same way.

Those thought guilty of rape and murder etc should have been caught, tried and if found guilty punished.

German, British Empire, American or Russian. Nationality should not serve as a protection from justice.

We rightly object to the use of Rape as a tactic of war today - it is just as unjustified as a tactic of revenge in 1945