On the topic of Nazi victory maps…

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Morgan Hauser, Jan 26, 2010.

  1. Morgan Hauser Well-Known Member

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    I know that there has been a large thread on this topic some time ago, but I don’t feel like resurrecting one that has been dead for years, so I’ll just start this new one.

    People are gonna like this. It’s the final result of a sidestep-project I’ve been working on since seeing Knight Templar’s map for the post-war plans of a Nazi-controlled Europe. Decided to make my own version using his base map as a start, and to improve on it by correcting the borders and adding in the internal divisions. From there the idea just expanded more and more, until I eventually ended up with this. It took me quite some time, but now that I’ve finally completed it, I think I can safely say that this is probably one of the best Nazi victory maps ever made, showing just what they were planning to do to Europe after the endsieg. Definitely my best one to date, in any case. I’ve done the map and the accompanying legend entirely in German to fit with the overall theme, so I hope people who have difficulty understanding the language will forgive me for that.

    Per the post-war plans, Germany has been expanded all the way up to the Urals, and now also includes most other Germanic countries in Europe. In the east, mass extermination and expulsion of the local population is taking place on an enormous scale as more and more areas are turned into colonies for German settlers, while the rest of the continent has been assimilated into a Nazi-dominated economic and political power bloc as satellite states of the Reich, whether openly or de-facto. Much of the cities in the annexed Soviet territories that have not undergone almost complete depopulation due to engineered hunger epidemics or that have been resettled with Germans are now used merely as the administrative seats of their respective regions. General famine is widespread, even in the countryside, while numerous guerrilla resistance groups roam the vast Russian lands, constantly hunted by the Wehrmacht and paramilitary SS forces.

    I’ve had to resort to a small amount of guesswork in some places, but I don’t think any of them are unrealistic assumptions. For instance, some city names have been deliberately over-translated into German ones – really, it fits right in with the brutal Germanization policies that were to be carried out in the conquered territories. I also improvised a bit with the General Government. It’s common knowledge that it was supposed to have been abolished and turned into new German provinces in about 15 to 20 years after its formation, but I’ve seen few references as to what these were supposed to have been called. Martin Bormann apparently suggested to Hitler that it should eventually be reorganized into a “Vandalengau”, to be composed of the entire GG. However, this seems needlessly impractical to me if only for administrative purposes. The territory and its population is simply too large. The largest OTL gau was East Prussia (due to its massive expansion in nearly all directions) and even that was a burden to properly control, mostly because of the inclusion of large, hostile foreign populations. So here its wartime districts are instead re-divided into the new reichsgaue of Weichselland, Goralenland, and Galicia/Galizien.

    And I’ve done away with the notion that Italy could maintain any significant degree of independence from Germany. A lot of people seem to think that their alliance with the Germans buys the Italians far more plus points than they would likely have received in reality. Mussolini’s regime was held with disdain by the vast majority of the senior Nazi officials and military officers for its overall military incompetence, not to mention that there was still a lot of grievance over the loss of South Tyrol among many Germans. One of the few advocates of allying with the Italians was Hitler in fact, who held Mussolini in high esteem for much of his career.

    However, the Nazis’ planned “Neuordnung” in Europe was to be organized along ethnic and racial lines, with the Latin and Balkan peoples enjoying a second-rate status (while much of the Slavic peoples as well as the Jews were to be simply exterminated) to the “Aryan master-race”. As soon as the Germans had solidified effective control over their eastern empire they would have quickly dealt with any potential insubordination from a supposed “ally” by eliminating the Italian sphere of influence in Europe. There is simply no place for a rival power in a Europe under complete Nazi hegemony. The Kingdom is thus overthrown, and Mussolini installed as the Fascist puppet ruler over an alternate Italian Social Republic, which is forced to give up the lands that Germany desired in it’s northeast, and losing nearly its entire colonial empire in the Balkans and the Mediterranean. Some countries in south-east Europe either gain or lose additional territories from this course of events, which falls neatly in line with the divide-and-conquer strategy used by Germany for the states subservient to it.

    I think that about covers it. I’d be grateful for comments and questions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
  2. Morgan Hauser Well-Known Member

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    And here is the map itself.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Nerdlinger All-around smartass

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    I like your dystopic map there. Do you have an English version?
     
  4. Thande Brexit Out Now, Funk Soul Brother

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    It's very nice work, but why are the British Isles an occupied Reichskommisariat in the main map and yet the key still shows the Vereingte Koenigreich?
     
  5. Penelope Well-Known Member

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    Er, the non-english is kind of the point. ;)
     
  6. karl2025 Well-Known Member

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    Wow... Italy is going to be pissed. Hungary is going to be at odds with most of it's neighbors too, but that's par for the course.
     
  7. Franz Josef II Member

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    I understand Italy losing the south Tyrol, but Dalmatia, too? If Germany wanted to take it away from Italy, might it not make more sense to annex it themselves (since under the Habsburgs, it was an Austrian territory)?
    Same with Pressburg. In OTL, after the Great War, Austria tried to keep the Sudetenland and Pressburg, so maybe Hitler decides to tell the Slovaks to choose another capitol :D
     
  8. varyar Who?

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    Rick's still doing okay for himself out in Morocco, it seems. :D

    Very nice map! One question - Do you have any sources for the RSHA West-Nordland region? I've seen it pop up here and there, but don't personally have any books that mention it. It's always intrigued me. Where can I learn more about it?
     
  9. Nerdlinger All-around smartass

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    I know, I was sort of joking. Unfortunately, my lack of knowledge of German prevents me from fully enjoying the map. Still, very cool.
     
  10. gtrof Mad Man with a Box

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    This is an excellent map. I would have enjoyed an English version just a little more so I could read it :) But please don't take that as a complaint its a fablous map. I'm already thinking of the Cold War possibilities here with the U.S.
     
  11. Max Sinister Retired Myriad Club Member

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    One question: Obviously, some conquered cities have been renamed, while other ones haven't. Why?
     
  12. Morgan Hauser Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the compliments guys.

    I’ll answer some of the questions people have now.

    Depends. Which cities do you mean, specifically?
     
  13. Morgan Hauser Well-Known Member

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    Just a sly nod to one of my favourite films.;)

    Not to the particular entity that I depicted on my map. I actually combined several either co-existing or successive ideas into one. At various points in time the region was supposed to have been made a part of either:
    * a proposed RSHA-Gouvernement Nordrussland-Westsiberien
    * the RK Moskau (Vyatka/Kirov region)
    * or an RK West Nordland (with an RK Ost Nordland controlling the Siberian Arctic coast)

    The problem with the first of these is that the name “Russia” would never have actually been used by any Nazi occupation regime. The fact that the conquered territories in the east were to be partitioned up into a number of regional “Reichskommissariats“ reveals the intention to destroy Russia not only as a nation, but also as a geographical entity. This is similarly reflected in the policies used in occupied Poland. Over there, the Nazis made a deliberate effort to avoid mentioning the name “Poland” in each and every document they issued, instead referring to the administration they instituted as the “General Government”. And of course, in the Czech lands the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (not “Czechia”) was set up in 1939. It would thus have been called something else.

    As far as I can tell, it seems that the proposed establishment of an RSHA-controlled political entity in the area was an idea being thrown around in the early stages (as can be seen from its inclusion of Karelia, which was exclusively promised to Finland by Hitler in 1941) for the post-war planning, but I do not know if the idea was ever abandoned entirely. I haven’t seen it mentioned in any of the books I myself have read or own, but there are at least two maps that clearly display it however (both shown below).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  14. Morgan Hauser Well-Known Member

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    Seems like a pretty good possibility. You might have noticed that Hitler decide to enforce a peaceful transaction upon Finland to cede the “Aryan” Åland Islands to German-controlled Sweden. The same could probably also have happened with similar areas, like Pressburg (Slovakia), or Oedenburg (Hungary). It isn't so much that Germany desperately wants Italy out of Dalmatia, rather than as part of a larger move to prevent Italy from becoming a potential rival. This gives Germany the opportunity to solidify its position as the unquestionable ruler of Europe. OTL it was given back to Croatia in 1943, so I went with that scenario. But come to think of it, it might make more sense from Germany’s perspective to keep Dalmatia and the coastline of Montenegro under Italian control, so as to foster mutual Italian-Croat and Italian-Montenegrin antipathy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  15. Morgan Hauser Well-Known Member

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    Indeed they are. The idea is to promote as much infighting amongst the other countries of Europe as possible. As a result these countries are now constantly vying for Germany’s support and friendship, instead of trying to unite into an anti-German front.

    But as you say, Italy would probably be particularely venomous after what the Germans did to them here, with all of that hate directed exclusively to its former ally. It might make more sense to tone down the territorial demands somewhat then from what I depicted.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  16. Morgan Hauser Well-Known Member

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    That might seem confusing at first, but it was done for a reason. I was uncertain about how to properly depict the planned situation for the British Isles. Hitler, a well-known Anglophile, originally wanted to establish an alliance with the British for many years, so that the two powers could divide the world amongst each other (Britain ruling the waves, Germany the continent). They would have been treated as an equal (although a “junior-partner“ of the Reich) if they had signed a peace settlement in 1940, but historically this never happened of course. Then a Reichskommissariat was supposed to be set up under Franz Alfred Six, while the Duke of Windsor would be installed as the new English king. This means that it would technically both be still a kingdom, but also a de-facto German colony. In contrast, in both Norway and the Netherlands the monarchies were simply abolished altogether.

    I’ve tried to resolve this problem by having both institutions existing simultaneously ("Reichsfestung" isn't part of the official state name of Serbia as well). The situation is somewhat similar then to the one that occurred with France in 1940. German forces are occupying, but with a local puppet government nominally exercising legal authority. This is mainly done so as not to antagonize the British too much, as they might otherwise just choose to fight on from their colonial territories – losing Germany control over the most vast empire in the world. And as far as I know, there were never any serious plans to outright annex Great Britain (unlike with Scandinavia and the Low countries), so I didn’t show it as part of the Reich proper.
     
  17. Emperor-of-New-Zealand My name is Tom, if you like.

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    What's the status of the Middle East and Turkey on your map? Wouldn't they have become German client states or something so the Reich could control the oil reserves in the Middle East?

    Also I'm intrigued by the Staat-Burgund. What is that? And is that a little SS I see on it :D?
     
  18. Wolfpaw Banned

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    Wouldn't Albania be under Italian jurisdiction?

    As you mentioned, Hitler had a soft spot for Mussolini and the Italians in general, so I can't see him wrenching South Tyrol, Albania, etc. away from Italy, at least while Hitler's alive. Maybe afterwards...

    And beside, Italy was so dependent on Germany that the Germans by and large had no problem letting them fulfill their sad little dreams of significance. Sort of like a, "Oh, those silly, mongrelized Mediterranean volk. Let them have their little tinpot empire; we can knock it down whenever we want, anyways!"

    Also, wouldn't Switzerland have been absorbed into the Reich, or at least the German bits? I mean, if the Swiss won't play ball, there's always Operation Tannenbaum.;)


    Other than that, fabulous map! And bonus points for including that little-known promise Hitler made to Himmler about resurrecting Burgundy as an SS state! :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  19. Chris S Member

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    Well, in the case of Britain being a Reichskommissariat and a kingdom, wouldn't that situation be analogous to situation in Denmark where the monarchy wasn't abolished? Of course in this case it would be a puppet monarchy.


    Generally a good map. I think the borders of the future districts in Ukraine might be slightly different - look back on that Ostland atlas reference I gave to see what I mean.

    The thing with Nazi victory maps is that technically no one map is going to be the real deal. Any number of them could be as it would depend on the course of events (e.g. peace treaty between Germany and Britain in 1940 would lead to no Reichskommissariat established in the UK). The one you've done Morgan would probably be a depiction of a victory in which Hitler either died early after victory against the Allies or was sidelined, thus leaving the way clear for the groups in the Nazi government who didn't think too highly of Italy to have their way with that country. As long as Hitler was in control and the Allies didn't land in Italy I think it is likely that Italy would have retained her empire and Germany wouldn't have annexed south Tyrol and the Istria areas.

    Then there were also plans to partition Switzerland (along the Rhine and from there in a straight-ish line to the border with France I think).


    With Karelia going to Finland, did that include Murmansk and the Kola Peninsula? Technically Karelia doesn't include either at least in the modern sense.

    And where did you find the borders for the SS-state in Burgundy? I thought that what you have as Reichskommissariat/Reichsland Lothringen was what Hitler and his bunch intended as the SS Burgundy (which would somewhat fit in loosely with the area occupied by the County of Burgundy and Duchy of Burgundy from the 800s to the 1400-1600s and more generally the area controlled by the House of Burgundy at some point during that time period).

    All very true. The references that include the name "Russland" were probably very early references as intially the General Government was called "the General Government for the occupied Polish territories" (in 1939) but then this was just officially shortened to "the General Government" (in 1940 or 1941 I think) as all references to "Poland" and "Polish" were removed.
     
  20. Max Sinister Retired Myriad Club Member

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    Vandalenburg, Pflugstadt, Himmlerstadt, Katharinenburg (after the German czarina, of course)... Some like Hegewald, Halbstadt are from the other map you posted, and some are the original Russian names germanized (Röwne, Tjernigau, Karkau, Saratau). I'm just asking because it doesn't look very consistent.