Norse North America

I can almost guarantee this has been discussed before, but searching for it I find it difficult to find anything.

Would there have been a possibility of an increase in the Norse colonisation of the 'New World' such that a hybrid population of Norse & North Americans hold sufficient power that later European colonisation is stopped or at least hampered.

I think there are a lot of reasons why this couldn't happen (not a large enough population to start with) but are there any butterflies that can really increase the power of the Norse-Native Americans?

Interested in comments.
 

Flubber

Banned
I can almost guarantee this has been discussed before, but searching for it I find it difficult to find anything.


Complete and utter rubbish.

Here's a link one such thread on the first page of this forum.

Here are a selection of links turned about by simply typing "Vinland" into the site's search engine. link link link link link

If you can't even be bothered to try, at least come up with a better excuse than searching is "hard".
 
Complete and utter rubbish.

Charming

Here's a link one such thread on the first page of this forum.

I read that thread and it is MOSTLY about medieval Europeans colonising the Americas. My thread is about a successful Norse/North American society becoming strong enough to defeat or at least contenst a later European colonisation.

Here are a selection of links turned about by simply typing "Vinland" into the site's search engine. link link link link link

I didn't search for Vinland. Didn't even think of it. Thank you for the links, I will read through them.

If you can't even be bothered to try, at least come up with a better excuse than searching is "hard".

Of course an alternate view is that someone else (in this case you) had better success because you used a different search string. As I said, I never thought to use Vinland as a search. Now that you have mentioned it, it does seem rather obvious.

As another alternate view, you could have posted in a less hostile manner and still got your point across.

Have a good day.
 
Complete and utter rubbish.

Here's a link one such thread on the first page of this forum.

Here are a selection of links turned about by simply typing "Vinland" into the site's search engine. link link link link link

If you can't even be bothered to try, at least come up with a better excuse than searching is "hard".

I'm happy to see my TL in that group of links:D
 
I've no contribution and I'm sure somebody has though of this before but...
Would you call such a place Nord America?

The word America comes from the Italian Cartographer Amerigo Vespucci. He was drawing a map of the world after Columbus's discovery and realized the new lands had no name. So he named it after itself and so it stuck. A TL with a PoD five hundred years before likely would not have him exist due to butterflies.

In a Vinland TL 'Nord' would likely be Norð. Using the letter eth that constitutes a 'th' sound. So literally it would be pronounced the same as modern English word North.
 
I think in the nordic regions never lived very much people, so the northern kingdoms have to send a great proportion of their civilization into North America; they could use southern Greenland as a resting point before they go into North America.
I'm not quite sure whether they could have formed a bond with the North Americans, maybe they just would have to ocuppy the Northeast area with the seas. After that they could take the South
east area, Florida, and could enter a trading relationship with the Mayas and Aztecs.
 
If you can't even be bothered to try, at least come up with a better excuse than searching is "hard".

Calm it, Flubber. We can't all be perfect with these things. There do exist people who aren't so hot at searching for things, and forum search engines are not always the most intuitive. If you didn't know the word "Vinland", for instance, then finding an actual search term which worked could be quite fiddly.

As for the name of the place, since some Viking or other had already named it Vinland I see little reason why it would change exactly, unless the settlers decided that the name was such an exaggeration that they gave it a nickname of something opposite, like "Coldland" or I don't even know, and the nickname stuck. That said, I've never been a huge advocate of Vinland colonisation. It just doesn't seem too likely to have ever proliferated IMO.
 
That said, I've never been a huge advocate of Vinland colonisation. It just doesn't seem too likely to have ever proliferated IMO.

I think that the only real way to make a difference is for the colony to have somehow merged with the native North American's. Whilst ever division was between them the population of the Norse would be way too small to have their technological advantage play a part.
 
I think that the only real way to make a difference is for the colony to have somehow merged with the native North American's. Whilst ever division was between them the population of the Norse would be way too small to have their technological advantage play a part.

IOTL the colony was raided by natives due to hostilities between the two groups, even killing Leif Eriksson's brother Thorvald. The first colony, founded by Thorfinn Karlsefni, was destroyed when the Natives were startled by a bull that got loose. However the colony existed for 3 years and prior to the bull's escape traded peacefully with the natives.

The point I am making isn't that they would be hostile or peaceful but that the natives were fickle. Three years of profitable trading, good relations, and even interbreeding (we have records of a person born to a native woman and Norse man but I cannot for the life of me find the name) was not enough to prevent the natives from attacking after they felt threatened.

However there is some debate as to if that story is true, I recall reading something about a crew member/colonist killing a native during the second year.
 
Not as charming as posting a thread on a topic Done to Deathtm topic while ignoring a similar thread on the first page.

Interested in Norse colonization but didn't even think to use "Vinland" as a search term. Sure. Whatever.

Thank you. I hope you enjoy the threads I so easily found for you.

You really need to calm down. He directly stated that thread wasn't what he was looking for. Just because he didn't search for 'Vinland' means nothing. It simply didn't occur to him. If you wanted to say it's been done before and point to some threads, there are ways to do that without sounding like a pompous jerk.
 
I think that the only real way to make a difference is for the colony to have somehow merged with the native North American's. Whilst ever division was between them the population of the Norse would be way too small to have their technological advantage play a part.

Perhaps that's a way of sustaining a settlement for a while, though if I remember correctly the Norse texts which reference the Skraelings refer to them as hostile groups who attacked without provocation (I might be wrong but I think I have this right). That doesn't sound like a concoction for a healthy working relationship.

Also, the other problem you have here is that the Vinland colonists were very small in number, and we are talking about America not being discovered for another 400-500 years afterwards. It's the way of things that those colonists are going to lose their identity and become subsumed by the native tribes' way of life. A few loan words might make it into the local language, for a while they might retain the ability to make more complex tools, but eventually it's going to be lost. History saw similar things happen time and time again. Entirely avoiding all the more familiar stories of migrations happening in Europe, there are many tales of European settlers from the early days getting scattered and ending up living with friendly native tribes, often for the rest of their days. There's what I think is a really quite twee story about the survivors of the Croatoan settlement going to live inland with an allied tribe, and decades later, when new settlers arrived to try again with a new colony, stories were circulating of a tribe of natives who lived in two-story huts, because the English settlers had taught them how to build multi-story buildings. Do you then hear stories of the American tribes coming to develop their own tall buildings? No, what instead happened was after a generation or two, the skill was lost again and the natives went back to their familiar customs. The same is likely to happen here. If the Norse settlers do integrate with the natives, by the time more Europeans arrive they won't be able to discern the Norse ancestry of the tribes, and the tribesmen themselves will have forgotten that some of their forefathers originated from across the sea. The only way to sustain a noticeable Norse influence is to have a sustainable colony IMO, and that means Vinland needs to be supported by more than just the already-pitifully weak Greenland colonists.
 
The word America comes from the Italian Cartographer Amerigo Vespucci. He was drawing a map of the world after Columbus's discovery and realized the new lands had no name. So he named it after itself and so it stuck.

Actually that erronous assumption was just yesterday mentioned in an "historical misconceptions" thread in the off-topic area.

Amerigo Vespucci of Florence was a navigator and explorer. He first showed that the West Indies were part of a unknown-to-Europeans continent, not somewhere in East Asia.

Martin Waldseemüller of Freiburg was the cartographer who first honoured Vespucci's discoveries on his 1507 map Universalis Cosmographia.
 
Actually that erronous assumption was just yesterday mentioned in an "historical misconceptions" thread in the off-topic area.

Amerigo Vespucci of Florence was a navigator and explorer. He first showed that the West Indies were part of a unknown-to-Europeans continent, not somewhere in East Asia.

Martin Waldseemüller of Freiburg was the cartographer who first honoured Vespucci's discoveries on his 1507 map Universalis Cosmographia.

Huh.
Fascinating, thanks for that information.
 
Actually that erronous assumption was just yesterday mentioned in an "historical misconceptions" thread in the off-topic area.

Amerigo Vespucci of Florence was a navigator and explorer. He first showed that the West Indies were part of a unknown-to-Europeans continent, not somewhere in East Asia.

Martin Waldseemüller of Freiburg was the cartographer who first honoured Vespucci's discoveries on his 1507 map Universalis Cosmographia.

The misconception being that he named it after himself, not that it's named after him?
 
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