Norman Spain

  • Thread starter Deleted member 67076
  • Start date

Malta

From my above posted link...

Gallacian Bishop Invites William to take over? Interesting.
Chapter II
Early Norman Participation in the Iberian Reconquest and Cluniac Influence (1018-1065)
Norman participation in the Iberian Reconquista started in the early eleventh century with their arrival as Christian allies in the long struggle between Muslims and Christians. It was not the first time that these people of Scandinavian ancestry had come to the peninsula, for in the ninth century groups of Vikings had raided its coast in search of gold from both Christian and Muslims alike. Despite this, when Roger of Tosny came to Barcelona in the early eleventh century, he was the first Norman, to come to the peninsula to fight specifically on the side of the Christians. Roger’s contribution had perhaps similar motivation to his Viking predecessors, of acquiring booty, but with a newly found loyalty to the Christian religion. The participation of this Norman is an exception during this period and it was not until forty years later in 1064 that a campaign with substantial Norman involvement was undertaken to capture a Muslim city. This was the siege and conquest of Barbastro of 1064, which involved an international coalition of Burgundians, Aquitanians, Normans, Catalans and, possibly, Aragonese in taking this relatively wealthy Muslim border town from its rulers.

The accusation by contemporaries that Bishop Diego Peláez of Compostella had invited William I of England to come to Galicia and to take it as his kingdom, certainly suggests that the bishop had indeed some diplomatic contacts with the court of the Norman king.142 This invitation occurred as a result of a rebellion by the Galician nobility against the rule of
138 Fletcher, Saint James’s Catapult, 81
139 Crónica de veinte reyes, ed. C. Hernández Alonso (Burgos, 1991), 115. 140 Haskins, The Normans, 192-195; France, The Crusades, 27.
141 Ferreiro Alemparte, Arribadas de Normandos y Cruzados, 45-59.
142 Fletcher, Saint James’s Catapult, 32.


-Alfonso VI of Castile-Leon. Although the existence of such an invitation has not been proven, the insinuation by contemporary sources that the bishop had invited the Norman king clearly indicates that there were contacts between the Norman nobility and Galicia.143 Moreover this reference suggests that the Normans may have been visiting the shrine of Saint James, and by doing so they could have contacted the bishop of Compostella.144 The only reference to Normans in Galicia around this time is from Wace who, writing a century later, claimed that Walter Giffard of Longueville was there. He may have been the first contact between the Galician bishop and William the Conqueror, if there was any, since the evidence in this period is very thin and there is no reference to this episode anywhere else.145
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Tobit

Tobit

Blackfox5 said:
One thing you must understand that we are using the term Normans loosely. This was not a centralized response where the Normans as a whole were deciding on conquering kingdoms for themselves.

The Norman Conquest of Sicily started because Norman pilgrims returning from Jerusalem in the year AD 999 stayed in Salerno when it was attacked by Muslim pirates. They assisted in the defense, and the local lord asked them to stay. Instead, they said they had to go home, but would tell others that knights looking work could find it there.

That started the process of individual Norman knights going to Italy. These were often second and third sons who weren't going to be heirs to the family estates and went to earn their fortune. Between 1050 and 1100, the various Norman groups managed to not only set themselves up as various lords, but to conquer most of southern Italy and Sicily.

So the question is do the Normans have enough excess men to keep sending them to Italy and Portugal? I think they do. Not every Norman who could have gone to Italy did so. Nor was there some kind of organized expedition that collected up as many Normans as possible and head to Italy. There was never a mass immigration of ordinary people from Normany to Italy. Just surplus sons of the nobility and knights who could serve as lords.

However, what you probably want is to have an existing Norman presence in Lisbon before 1066. After that date, the acquistion of the Kingdom of England will probably dry up most recruits unless there is already an area under Norman control.

Could it be too much for the Normans to settle Portugal and Sicily and England? Perhaps. But unless we have lots of demographic data, all of our opinions (including mine) won't be based on reality.
Click to expand...

I think the important question isn't about demographics since the Normans didn't really settle Sicily and only barely settled England. Like you pointed out they served as mercenaries before they started to seize counties. But because of that I think the Normans could only have great success in these areas if they have great leaders that could rule.

After all in Sicily it was simply a collection of petty feudal lords until someone like Robert Guiscard came along and proved himself. Yet that means a different Norman would need to lead those numerous landless nobles and prove themselves against their foes like the Ummayyad Caliphs of Cordoba.
 

Paladin

I seem to recall there was a brief Norman state set up in southeastern Spain, I think? It was just one adventurer, and I can't remember who, but it didn't last long.
 

thekingsguard

I had this as a detail in for a world I planned a few stories for - Essentially, the first POD was a surviving Kingdom of the North under Canute's descendants retains and expands it's holdings in Scandinavia and the British Isles. This, among other effects means that William the Bastard of Normandy has little to no chance or odds of conquering England, so instead, he leads a crusade to conquer Muslim Spain. The descendants of William the Crusader form the nexus of what becomes the Kingdom of Iberia, which grows to control most of the Peninsula of the same name over the coming centuries, as well as much of North Africa thanks to Robert Guiscard.

A lot of further details are needed for sure, but a fascinating possibility.
 

Malta

Dom Pedro III said:
Based on that paper, it sounds like the best place for a POD would be to have William lose at Hastings. It doesn't necessarily get you more Norman involvement in Spain, but it sounds like the invasion of England pulled a lot of men away who might otherwise have gone to Iberia and other locations.
Click to expand...

It did pull men but it seems to have not stopped involvement. It may be a mistake to rely too heavily on that as a POD specifically but certain persons involved may have directed their interest southward.
 

Janprimus

Dom Pedro III said:
Based on that paper, it sounds like the best place for a POD would be to have William lose at Hastings. It doesn't necessarily get you more Norman involvement in Spain, but it sounds like the invasion of England pulled a lot of men away who might otherwise have gone to Iberia and other locations.
Click to expand...

How about the period after the death of William the Conqueror?

Robert Curthose got the duchy of Normandy, William Rufus inherited the kingdom of England and Henry Beauclerc got a sum of money (which could be used to buy lands).
However IIRC William the Conqueror considered to disown Robert Curthose. If that happens, then Henry Beauclerc might have inherited Normandy (or would he get England?) and William Rufus keeps England; then Robert Curthose might lead an Iberian expedition to pursue his fortunes.

IOTL William the Conqueror died in 1087; IOTL Henry of Burgundy received the county of Portugal in 1093.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top