I suspect with slaves,like in V2 factories.
Hitler thought that Western Allies and Soviets would clash before or after,so in the redoubt he could wait.
Is a crazy idea,obviously.
But Schickelgruber was crazy.
Nazi last stand: The Alpine national redoubt.
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Hitler thought that Western Allies and Soviets would clash before or after,so in the redoubt he could wait.
Is a crazy idea,obviously.
But Schickelgruber was crazy.
After the Battle of the Bulge it is far too late to build such a redoubt.
After the twin German disasters at Normandy and Bagration such a plan admits to the German people that defeat is at hand AND that the regime is willing to throw them all to the Allies(even the Soviets!) in return for just holding out a bit longer.
After the twin German disasters at Normandy and Bagration such a plan admits to the German people that defeat is at hand AND that the regime is willing to throw them all to the Allies(even the Soviets!) in return for just holding out a bit longer.
Grimm,
I have been thinking of how building the national redoubt would work in third edition Third Reich. 15 brp for one fortress, and this redoubt would likely be two mountain hexes. 30 brp total, which comes out to two panzer corps and 3 infantry corps. In return, stack panzers and the paratroopers in the two fortresses. It will take a number of attacks to clear the hexes. On the attacker's side, the Nazis can't repair or rebuild their units.
Personally, both in the game and in real life, I would surround the redoubt and take the rest of Germany, which now is much less defended.
Dan Reilly The Great
Banned
Careful, AHers don't like this kind of logic. When some person is posting an ATL, they always want to believe you can borrow from Peter And Paul and you never have to pay anyone back.
Actually I think that's the generally the mentality the Germans had going into the war, sure we can build a massive war machine in short order. Won't that bankrupt our economy? What-rupt our what?
Sure the slave labor is there, but what about all the concrete, steel, weapons, and construction equipment needed to build the redoubt, considering that they weren't finished building and equipping the atlantic wall by '44 with a two year lead time I don't see how they are going to maintain production levels on other projects and get the redoubt completed by 45.
However the point is moot anyways, since authorizing such a project would require hitler to believe that the war was more or less lost anyways, which I'm pretty sure he didn't figure out until just about the same day he gave himself a lead injection. Such a mentality on the part of hitler would result in a considerably different way in which the Germans fought the war after either Normandy or Bagration.
usertron2020
Donor
Perfectly Stated.
In essence, this means a Western Allies First Grand Strategy for Hitler. The only problem was, as OTL, once the average German soldier realized the Russians were accross the Oder and pouring into Germany, every life lost on the Western Front was a life wasted. That's one reason why after we crossed the Rhine the rush to surrender by the Heer became a stampede.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Defeatism was punishable by death in Hitler's Germany. What greater act of defeatism could there be than an early development of the National Redoubt? Are we assuming an Atlantic Wall, a Battle of the Falaise Gap, Market Garden, Metz, the Hurtzgern Forest, the Bulge, a Colmar Pocket, an improved Siegfried Line, AND the Redoubt? By the time the Allies reach the Redoubt the Russians will have taken all their Yalta objectives and be moving deep into Allied Yalta areas!
In essence, this means a Western Allies First Grand Strategy for Hitler. The only problem was, as OTL, once the average German soldier realized the Russians were accross the Oder and pouring into Germany, every life lost on the Western Front was a life wasted.
That's one reason why after we crossed the Rhine the rush to surrender by the Heer became a stampede.burmafrd
Banned
One great thing about being a WW2 reenactor for almost 25 years is that I have had the oppurtunity to fire and use in reenactments all weapons used by the US, England and Germany during WW2. Actually carried them around the area, sometimes several miles in one day. Many of our reenactments would last 24-36 hours straight. I also have been lucky enough to talk to a lot of WW2 veterans over the years, US, British and even German.
The BAR was valuable and only the small magazine was a real problem. The WW2 BAR carriers almost universally loved it. Having fired it myself on numerous occasions I found it VERY HARD to over heat. The combination of the BAR and Garands gave the US a overall higher rate of fire then you would think-remember the British and German armies standard infrantry arm was still a bolt action rifle.
The M1919 Browning 30 cal was not as heavy as many would think it was. Of course it always went to the biggest guy around but its not that heavy, when you spread the weight around to 3-4 GI's. An excellant weapon.
As regarding squad size one reason for the oversized part that some people criticise (and veterans I spoke to never thought it was) was that sickness. injury, combat losses tended to reduce that size VERY quickly.
Oh and the detractors of patton would do well to research the combat losses vs ground gained ratio of 1 October to 15 december 1944 (the worst weather and lowest supply period) when all armies were working their ways through fortified areas of Third Army vs all others. And also compare it with the Italian campaign. And anyone praising Hodges should consider Huertgen Forrest.
The BAR was valuable and only the small magazine was a real problem. The WW2 BAR carriers almost universally loved it. Having fired it myself on numerous occasions I found it VERY HARD to over heat. The combination of the BAR and Garands gave the US a overall higher rate of fire then you would think-remember the British and German armies standard infrantry arm was still a bolt action rifle.
The M1919 Browning 30 cal was not as heavy as many would think it was. Of course it always went to the biggest guy around but its not that heavy, when you spread the weight around to 3-4 GI's. An excellant weapon.
As regarding squad size one reason for the oversized part that some people criticise (and veterans I spoke to never thought it was) was that sickness. injury, combat losses tended to reduce that size VERY quickly.
Oh and the detractors of patton would do well to research the combat losses vs ground gained ratio of 1 October to 15 december 1944 (the worst weather and lowest supply period) when all armies were working their ways through fortified areas of Third Army vs all others. And also compare it with the Italian campaign. And anyone praising Hodges should consider Huertgen Forrest.
For one thing the convention war in Europe ends a lot quicker, with the need to build those underground fortifications and stockpile those years of food and ammunition to even feed and equip a division sized force of fanatics the German war effrot will suffer even more than it already was. The war will be over by late 1944 presuming that planning begins in late 1943. Any later and their escape will be cut off before they can reach the redoubt.
If the Nazis somehow put together an impressive Alpine redoubt that holds well into the summer of 1945, they are definitely receiving nucular therapy.
if anyone doubts that the Allies wouldn't detonate nuclear bombs in Europe, well, I suppose the folks who brought us Dresden: Now You See It, Now You Don't aren't terribly aware of those doubts.
The Los Alamos Project was all about putting a nuke on the Nazis before the Nazis were able to produce their own.
Given incentive in the form of the Nazi redoubt's formidable properties, Oppenheimer and friends might have worked to develop something with a larger explosive force, or, in an extreme scenario, might have even taken Teller's "Super" bomb notion more seriously.
if anyone doubts that the Allies wouldn't detonate nuclear bombs in Europe, well, I suppose the folks who brought us Dresden: Now You See It, Now You Don't aren't terribly aware of those doubts.
The Los Alamos Project was all about putting a nuke on the Nazis before the Nazis were able to produce their own.
Given incentive in the form of the Nazi redoubt's formidable properties, Oppenheimer and friends might have worked to develop something with a larger explosive force, or, in an extreme scenario, might have even taken Teller's "Super" bomb notion more seriously.
The downfall on this is the logistics. Must be.
How much does a panzer division require per month in food, fuel, even horse fodder for that matter? stock piling for a year? if it is from 1944, the fuel situation is not great, 1945 impossible.
Ok, let's build it in 1943. Before or after Stalingrad and Kursk? that is like saying the war is lost.
and where would the troops be coming from in 1945? Which front?
Sorry, not plausible.
How much does a panzer division require per month in food, fuel, even horse fodder for that matter? stock piling for a year? if it is from 1944, the fuel situation is not great, 1945 impossible.
Ok, let's build it in 1943. Before or after Stalingrad and Kursk? that is like saying the war is lost.
and where would the troops be coming from in 1945? Which front?
Sorry, not plausible.
Cook
Banned
German Infantry divisions required 80 tonnes of consumables per day when inactive and 1,100 tonnes per day in heavy fighting in Russia, less in France.
German Panzer divisions required 30 tonnes per day when inactive and 700 tonnes per day in heavy fighting. That’s a full strength division so not really significant since by the last year of the war there weren’t any full strength panzer divisions. And remember, those figures are per day.
looking at it again, yes i did mean per day.
if we should stock pile for one year, it would be some 400,000 tons of provisions per infantry division only. Moving hat around in 1945? no.
in 1944? problematic at best.
Hate being like this, but it is beyond the possible and plausible.
Let us just imagine it is done. There is now some 10 divisions of all weapons in the Alps. What are they going to do? The minute they try to get int a fight down on the plains, they would be attacked left right and centre.
Now, there was a notion some time ago where this festung was supposed to be populated by scientist creating new weapons. For getting those off the ground machine shops woudl be required and access to raw materials, another logistics headache.
Actually, it is more amazing that in 1945 it was taken as serious as it was. If we in this forum can come up with all these arguments to nail this idea, why not in 1945? Could anybody in 1945 pinpoint which 10 divisions would fall off the map and go to the alps? along which roads? without being detected?
Ivan
if we should stock pile for one year, it would be some 400,000 tons of provisions per infantry division only. Moving hat around in 1945? no.
in 1944? problematic at best.
Hate being like this, but it is beyond the possible and plausible.
Let us just imagine it is done. There is now some 10 divisions of all weapons in the Alps. What are they going to do? The minute they try to get int a fight down on the plains, they would be attacked left right and centre.
Now, there was a notion some time ago where this festung was supposed to be populated by scientist creating new weapons. For getting those off the ground machine shops woudl be required and access to raw materials, another logistics headache.
Actually, it is more amazing that in 1945 it was taken as serious as it was. If we in this forum can come up with all these arguments to nail this idea, why not in 1945? Could anybody in 1945 pinpoint which 10 divisions would fall off the map and go to the alps? along which roads? without being detected?
Ivan
IKE when finding out in April that such a redoubt actually exists. Phone Patton. Patton answers: Sure, i could send in the entire third army, but i know who REALLY want the job.
Bomber Harris gets the call. Jumps up and down. Now remember that Luftwaffe dont exist. Two days later every bomber in the ETO flighs toward the redoubt. THink Dresdenattacks for an entire month and as the war winds down everywere else fighterbombers from both the west and the east flies and bombs anything that moves.
Bomber Harris gets the call. Jumps up and down. Now remember that Luftwaffe dont exist. Two days later every bomber in the ETO flighs toward the redoubt. THink Dresdenattacks for an entire month and as the war winds down everywere else fighterbombers from both the west and the east flies and bombs anything that moves.
How feasible would such an Alpenfustung be if it was started in say early '43? Perhaps Himmler starts having doubts and starts building it in secret, as an early warning radar or something. As for manpower, well, the Waffen-SS is at his disposal.
In this situation there will be essentially no Luftwaffe. Therefore the Allies can keep aircraft buzzing around during the daytime ready to pounce on anything (even some Soldat taking a leak). Nighttime, the P-61 Black wWdows could do much the same against any larger concentrations or vehicles that left a cave, while designed as night fighters they were used effectively in the Pacific as night ground attack as well.
Doing the above would allow Allied ground forces to close the noose slowly, and seal caves with Germans inside them.
Of course, all of the logistical elements mentioned by other posters make a true Alpenfestung ASB, although a small version with fanatic holdouts was technically possible.
Doing the above would allow Allied ground forces to close the noose slowly, and seal caves with Germans inside them.
Of course, all of the logistical elements mentioned by other posters make a true Alpenfestung ASB, although a small version with fanatic holdouts was technically possible.
Hitler would have had to commit to it early to be effective. If you suppose that he does so, then I could see it extending the war for at most another year. Still static defenses, with the same old weakness they've always had. Also, all that concrete and all those troops would have to come from somewhere, probably leaving the defenses in France that much weaker and the armies in the east that much smaller. So overall it probably doesn't buy much time at all.
The necessity of reducing such a redoubt MIGHT, I suppose, increase the risk that Soviet and Anglo-American troops might butt heads. But the West seems to have been pretty careful about that sort of thing.