Dude, look at a map. You can't compare Norway (let alone Denmark?!?) to the situation with Ireland. Besides which, if they can invade Ireland, then they can invade Britain, so they'd invade Britain.
Nazi Germany invades Ireland 1941
- Thread starter ernie89
- Start date
Dude, look at a map. You can't compare Norway (let alone Denmark?!?) to the situation with Ireland. Besides which, if they can invade Ireland, then they can invade Britain, so they'd invade Britain.
True, but I have heard arugments made that by securing Irish airbases one could easily distract the British forces which, on paper, are most effective aimed at a single region of attack. Throw in an Irish invasion by Germany must lead to one by Britian to secure it and the unsure situation of England seems utterly doomed to failure. Plus compare Ireland in WWII to the UK and it seems a smaller force could take over the entire nation with ease in the short term.
OTL teaches us such things are not so cut and dry but as Ireland was always the "Dagger to strike at Englands heart," taking it over could cause a lot of damage and maybe improve the chances of a peace treaty.
Yeah, the IRA owed a lot of its effectiveness to the fact they were up against the (relatively) civilized British. IRA tactics would have failed miserably against the Nazis or the Soviets. I wonder, however, if Irish resistance to a German occupation is a foregone conclusion. If the German occupation of Ireland were cast as a temporary expediency, necessary to defeat Britain, and that a post-war German victory scenario would include a united (32-county) Irish Republic (not some half-assed "Free State"), with Ireland a favored ally within the post-war Axis order (perhaps with Britain forced to pay reparation to Ireland for centuries of imperial occupation), would it not have been possible to win over Irish support for the German occupation? Of course, it would help if the Germans tread very lightly upon the Irish, much as they did in the Channel Islands.
To that I say look into the RIC Auxiliary Division and the Black and Tan's. Civlians got shot, homes burned, city blocks shot up, food shipments stopped for weeks, and much more by the British for what the IRA did to them. Not saying the IRA was any better midn you, but the British forces in charge of security for Ireland wa snot above being as underhanded and dirty as the IRA was.
OK, but I'm a little unclear how that's a response to what you quoted from me above.
You said the IRA was effective due to the British being "civilized," when comparing actions of the counter-insurgency and the Nazi occupation forces in Western Europe are similar to a degree. So to me its not comparing apples and oranges but apples to apples. The IRA was used to a more powerful, better funded, equally ruthless force trying to stop their actions. So the IRA could be jsut as effective, if not more agaisnt a German occupation.
Why? Ireland was neutral in WWII as it was fearful of England attacking it, and at the same time hopeful that Germany would give it something for staying out of the fight. As the thread is about Germany "invading" and not simply landing I question why the IRA would help the invaders?
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
You do understand that the IRA is not Ireland? That it saw the Dublin government as just as illegitimate as the Belfast one? That they had links to Abwehr?
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
What German government? It's a military occupation. If they cared anything about actually running the country they'd turn to whoever would be willing to help them do it. And there's no reason for the IRA to turn down this opportunity.
mattep74
Kicked
Yes, but even so UK is in the way. If you dont suggest launching an invasion from the bay of Biscay.
I guess England would sound like this
"Say, i say these chaps have gathered a lot of ships in the bay of Biscay" Admiral one
"I say, how rude of them. And how utterly stupid. I guess they will invade us from there" Admiral two
"Shall i order our ships to go and visit them?" A1
"Bring along some airplanes"A2
1) German invasion of Norway and Denmark had the advantage of surprise and was far from English waters. Invasion of Ireland will not have the advantage of surprise and practically goes through English waters.
2) The Kriegsmarine was crippled by the invasion of Norway. When the Sea Lion was being discussed in August 1940 the Kriegsmarine had two antique coastal battleships, one pocket battleship, one heavy cruiser.
3) The RAF would enjoy a tremendous advantage as German shipping was forced to repeatedly go through the region. By concentrating west-southwest of Cornwall the Luftwaffe can't contest at all!
4) FDR and the interventionists are deeply grateful for the sudden muzzling of the Irish American community, isolationist not so happy.
5) The entire initial landing in Norway consisted of @10,000 men in six locations with a few dozen antique or experimental tanks, no Brits on the spot. The British forces already in Northern Ireland would match that.
CAN the Germans field enough shipping, capable of functioning on the high seas, to land a truly substantial force, say 30,000-40,000 with tanks, artillery and plenty of supplies, something they have no prior experience doing?
6) Germany's invasion fleet of barges was of uncertain seaworthiness in the Channel, going several hundred miles into the Atlantic...
In the event that the Germans actually try this they lose the entire invasion force, their surface fleet is gutted, their merchant fleet depleted and they just helped FDR rearm America and aid Great Britian. Great move.
Fenwick's assumption that the IRA would be as effective against the Gestapo as they were against the British in the 1970s is simply ludicrous, as is the idea that the British in the 1970s were remotely like the Nazis in how they behaved.
2) The Kriegsmarine was crippled by the invasion of Norway. When the Sea Lion was being discussed in August 1940 the Kriegsmarine had two antique coastal battleships, one pocket battleship, one heavy cruiser.
3) The RAF would enjoy a tremendous advantage as German shipping was forced to repeatedly go through the region. By concentrating west-southwest of Cornwall the Luftwaffe can't contest at all!
4) FDR and the interventionists are deeply grateful for the sudden muzzling of the Irish American community, isolationist not so happy.
5) The entire initial landing in Norway consisted of @10,000 men in six locations with a few dozen antique or experimental tanks, no Brits on the spot. The British forces already in Northern Ireland would match that.
CAN the Germans field enough shipping, capable of functioning on the high seas, to land a truly substantial force, say 30,000-40,000 with tanks, artillery and plenty of supplies, something they have no prior experience doing?
6) Germany's invasion fleet of barges was of uncertain seaworthiness in the Channel, going several hundred miles into the Atlantic...
In the event that the Germans actually try this they lose the entire invasion force, their surface fleet is gutted, their merchant fleet depleted and they just helped FDR rearm America and aid Great Britian. Great move.
Fenwick's assumption that the IRA would be as effective against the Gestapo as they were against the British in the 1970s is simply ludicrous, as is the idea that the British in the 1970s were remotely like the Nazis in how they behaved.
I was refering to the IRA in the 1920's. Actions by the Black and Tan's had a Nazi streak to them, of course one could easily make the arguement towards the IRA in their regards to fighting in the 20's as well.
