Nazi Cold War

[gtrof]

After being inspired by the Weapons of the Reich thread and the Nazi Victory or Survives TL thread in the writer's forum, I made this. Its an attempt to create a world in 1985 where Nazi Germany dominates Europe and is locked in a Cold War with the United States.

Now my thinking for this is that Britain signs a peace with Hitler sometime after the fall of France. Not looking forward to Sea Lion, The Fuhrer turns his attention on the East. The Werhmact captures Moscow and goes up to the Urals. With Stalin dead and the following Soviet Government in disarray, the Germans gobble up western Russia.

Now things I'm not sure about is what do with Africa and the Pacific. One idea is that the Japanese fight the US and Britain but Germany stays out of it. Maybe Japan doesn't join the Axis or Hitler is smart enough simply to not declare war. US wins, deploying nukes against Japan. The other is the Japanese are a major Axis power with Germany.

Anyway I'd love some feed back, thanks!

 

[Blue Max]

I think if that PoD is a UK pullout from the allies, this would mean that the combined resources of the UK and USA would be squarely directed against Japan. If that were to happen, you'd almost certainly have a few more allies on that map: Nationalist China would probably win its civil war against Communists (ideological weakness of the Communists would be apparent, and the USA and UK would throw their resources into China after Japan is defeated) and Thailand, Vietnam, Korea, and Indonesia would all be squarely in the Allied Camp. 1985 is probably a bit early for Japan to remobilize, but if it matters, Japan could conceivably join the Allies as well.

Also, the Soviet Union would be horrifically abused in this situation, and by 1985 I suspect they'd be willing to accept any price to end the sufferings of their people--remember that there wasn't supposed to be a peace deal in Russia; the Germans would simply build a massive defensive line and continue operations behind it. By 1985 you'd be seeing Germany launch nuclear strikes into the Remnants of the Soviet Union.

I suspect you'd see a reverse polarization of politics, where the USA supports insane socialist regimes over people of the moderate right. The Soviet Remnant would be deeply tied to the United States.

 

[Fletch]

Why are Australia and New Zealand neutral? Seeing as India is united, I am assuming it is under British control, which beggars the question of what happened to the African colonies?

 

[SeanB]

Grrrrr... *hits head on table a thousand times* Alsace...freaking...Lorraine!!!

 

[Snake Featherston]

So...

does Nazism avoid collapsing under its own structural rot the moment the Fuhrer croaks? If it does, who is his successor? Heydrich? Bormann? Goering? Von Schirach? Doenitz?

Would we see a sort of Deng Xiaoping figure in Nazism? How does the Reich fare in ruling over all of Europe when the only mortar for the empire is corpses? Does the Reich last as long as the USSR or shorter than it did?

 

[Onkel Willie]

I think that if Britain surrendered in 1940, possibly after a disaster at Dunkirk, that Japan would go for the northern option even though that doesn't immediately solve their oil problem. Not even the Japanese military leaders are stupid enough to take on the full might of the Royal Navy and the British Empire which isn't tied up in a general European war and the United States which can direct all of its military and industrial power to the pacific. So lets say Japan gets everything as far west as lake Bajkal.


Germany by this time is doing well. Maybe Mussolini gobbles up Tunisia shortly after Britain gets out and before France surrenders. Maybe this is enough to convince old Musso to not fight except for breaking up Yugoslavia. So there is no Greec front and no attack on Crete. The paratroopers there won't be lost and neither will the transport planes be lost. What would have been the Africa corps gets sent to the USSR along with Rommel. German industry will not get bombed and can import everything it needs. Instead of Germany Italy will get bogged down in Yugoslavia fighting Tito. The German forces that garrisoned Yugoslavia can be sent to Russia too. I'd say the Soviet Union is in big trouble as German industry isn't lacking resources (tungsten for the Me-262 or for tank shells anyone or oil) and the Germans can direct all of their power towards the east. This explains why the Japanese won't get the crap beaten out of them despite their total lack of tanks.

And could somebody tell me how to make maps.

 

[Valdemar II]

does Nazism avoid collapsing under its own structural rot the moment the Fuhrer croaks?

I don't think that it collapse (at least not in the short term), but it will likely moderate itself like USSR did after Stalin, and turn more "humane". But I have alway found the whole Nazism doomed to recession and collapse slightly unimaginative, Nazi Germany had a pragmatic side and it would likely adopt policies which would be more longterm stable. Beside that while the state had great control over the marked it wasn't a planned economy, and lacked many of the fundamental flaws which killed USSR. Another thing often forgotten is the German bureacracy, which was a continuation of the early Weimar and Wilhelmite bureacracy, so it likely continue with the old fashion tradition of these, which will help make Nazi Germany stable.

 

[Snake Featherston]

I don't think that it collapse (at least not in the short term), but it will likely moderate itself like USSR did after Stalin, and turn more "humane". But I have alway found the whole Nazism doomed to recession and collapse slightly unimaginative, Nazi Germany had a pragmatic side and it would likely adopt policies which would be more longterm stable. Beside that while the state had great control over the marked it wasn't a planned economy, and lacked many of the fundamental flaws which killed USSR. Another thing often forgotten is the German bureacracy, which was a continuation of the early Weimar and Wilhelmite bureacracy, so it likely continue with the old fashion tradition of these, which will help make Nazi Germany stable.

46 assassination attempts on Hitler in 12 years is a bit too many to augur for the stability of any Nazi dictatorship. Hitler's regime was built on some rather shoddy foundations, and I can't see any of his successors as moderate as Nikita Khruschev was for the USSR. I also can't see any moderation of Nazism, either, as fascism itself does not lend itself to such revision as Khruschev did of the USSR.

 

[SeanB]

After Hitler's death, do you think it is possible to eventually see a Nazi Germany that is actually controlled by "The Nazi Party"? That is, it's the Party itself that holds real power, with the Fuhrer being selected from the Party by the Party. Kind of like in the later Soviet Union.

 

[gtrof]

Why are Australia and New Zealand neutral? Seeing as India is united, I am assuming it is under British control, which beggars the question of what happened to the African colonies?

Well first off its a work in progress, and some advice on the African colonies would be appericated. Please remember the map is hopefully in its final form show a Nazi-US Cold War in 1985. Would the African colonies get independence? I'd think at least the British would give their colonies independence as long as they kept economic and defense agreements.

Grrrrr... *hits head on table a thousand times* Alsace...freaking...Lorraine!!!

Again work in progress, where should they be filled in?

 

[gtrof]

After Hitler's death, do you think it is possible to eventually see a Nazi Germany that is actually controlled by "The Nazi Party"? That is, it's the Party itself that holds real power, with the Fuhrer being selected from the Party by the Party. Kind of like in the later Soviet Union.

I've always thought something along the lines of Chris's stories would happen. Where the Nazis want to avoid the power held singularly like Hitler. So they have a ruling body similar to the Soviet Politburo.

 

[SeanB]

Again work in progress, where should they be filled in?

Ah, I'm sorry if I came across as a bit harsh, but you forgot to give Germany Alasce-Lorraine, which they actually did annex from France following their defeat in 1940.

 

[gtrof]

I think that if Britain surrendered in 1940, possibly after a disaster at Dunkirk, that Japan would go for the northern option even though that doesn't immediately solve their oil problem. Not even the Japanese military leaders are stupid enough to take on the full might of the Royal Navy and the British Empire which isn't tied up in a general European war and the United States which can direct all of its military and industrial power to the pacific. So lets say Japan gets everything as far west as lake Bajkal.

Its not so much a surrender, since there will be occupation by Germany. As a result by 1985 Britian is on the front line of the Cold War with Germany.

Maybe Mussolini gobbles up Tunisia shortly after Britain gets out and before France surrenders. Maybe this is enough to convince old Musso to not fight except for breaking up Yugoslavia. So there is no Greec front and no attack on Crete. The paratroopers there won't be lost and neither will the transport planes be lost. What would have been the Africa corps gets sent to the USSR along with Rommel. German industry will not get bombed and can import everything it needs. Instead of Germany Italy will get bogged down in Yugoslavia fighting Tito. The German forces that garrisoned Yugoslavia can be sent to Russia too. I'd say the Soviet Union is in big trouble as German industry isn't lacking resources (tungsten for the Me-262 or for tank shells anyone or oil) and the Germans can direct all of their power towards the east. This explains why the Japanese won't get the crap beaten out of them despite their total lack of tanks.

Basically that's what I'm working for. Germany does much better since it focuses all its attention on Russia. They take what they want and let what's left of the Soviet government rule the rest.

For Japan, I'd still expect them to go to war with the US and UK, especially since the UK will be at its weakest in 1940. Maybe they first go north take some of Russia, but then later when declaring war on the USA lose it as the Russians take parts of it back.

And could somebody tell me how to make maps.

Sure, just find a base image in some form. I think PNG works the best. Then edit it in a program. I'm pretty basic and use MS Paint.

 

[gtrof]

Ah, I'm sorry if I came across as a bit harsh, but you forgot to give Germany Alasce-Lorraine, which they actually did annex from France following their defeat in 1940.

No problem HSB in version two I'll correct that.

 

[Rekjavik]

Another nitpick in the map is that Austria is independent whilst Slovakia is non-existent. It was effectively German run, yes, but it was still independent on paper.

 

[Valdemar II]

Another nitpick is the lack of French and Italian colonies in Africa.

 

[gtrof]

Another nitpick in the map is that Austria is independent whilst Slovakia is non-existent. It was effectively German run, yes, but it was still independent on paper.

D'oh! Okay my intention was to make them part of Germany (New map below should show this.)

 

[gtrof]

Another nitpick is the lack of French and Italian colonies in Africa.

Okay which ones should be affected? Like I said I wanted some help with Africa

 

[Rekjavik]

Where is Austria independent? I've got it as part of Germany proper along with Slovakia.

From what I can see from your first map is that Austria is an Axis Power, not apart of the German Reich. They have 2 different colours.

EDIT: Blast, too late. At least I could help.

 

[gtrof]

From what I can see from your first map is that Austria is an Axis Power, not apart of the German Reich. They have 2 different colours.

Just fixed it Rekjavik, thanks!