Nation wide riots after 9/11

David Howery · Mar 1, 2004

well, we don't jail people for teaching evolution (anymore) and abortion is legal. We don't stone women for sleeping around. We don't issue death warrants for authors who write insulting books about Christianity. One wonders if the USA, with it's separation of church and state, would be like if the majority turned to Islam...

Ian the Admin · Mar 1, 2004

David Howery said:
well, we don't jail people for teaching evolution (anymore) and abortion is legal. We don't stone women for sleeping around. We don't issue death warrants for authors who write insulting books about Christianity.

Of course all these things used to happen. People tend to forget that mainstream Christianity today is a relatively warm-and-fuzzy religion due to hundreds of years of liberalization and re-interpretation under modern societies. The modern perception of Islam is colored by the fact that it's advocates include some nasty fundamentalists with a lot of influence, and those peoples' beliefs are the only Islamic beliefs most Americans ever hear about. It's as if non-Christians thought that the only "real" Christianity was the Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell, "9/11 was God's wrath against gays and the ACLU" kind. Which they might be tempted to if those guys were in charge of the US.

Brilliantlight · Mar 1, 2004

Ian Montgomerie said:
Of course all these things used to happen. People tend to forget that mainstream Christianity today is a relatively warm-and-fuzzy religion due to hundreds of years of liberalization and re-interpretation under modern societies. The modern perception of Islam is colored by the fact that it's advocates include some nasty fundamentalists with a lot of influence, and those peoples' beliefs are the only Islamic beliefs most Americans ever hear about. It's as if non-Christians thought that the only "real" Christianity was the Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell, "9/11 was God's wrath against gays and the ACLU" kind. Which they might be tempted to if those guys were in charge of the US.

Maybe, but I doubt it. Even Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell never have condoned violence in the name of Christian ideals. Considering these are probably the largest of the strongly fundamentalist churches means that it is highly unlikely that you will see any but the most obscure Christian cults calling for the deaths of Moslems. Callling for the death of infidels is not very rare in mosques all over the world.

Faeelin · Mar 1, 2004

I have a question. What's the POD that alters the american mindset to the degree that we all go out and kill innocent people in our own country?

We may as well ask "WI the Wermacht, on September 8, 1939, sat down and started singing "Give Peace a Chance""

Brilliantlight · Mar 1, 2004

Faeelin said:
I have a question. What's the POD that alters the american mindset to the degree that we all go out and kill innocent people in our own country?

We may as well ask "WI the Wermacht, on September 8, 1939, sat down and started singing "Give Peace a Chance""

It has happened many times in history although not in the US. Part of my point was that the American population has been very constrained compared to most of World's history.

Faeelin · Mar 1, 2004

Brilliantlight said:
It has happened many times in history although not in the US. Part of my point was that the American population has been very constrained compared to most of World's history.

well, what the duchy of grand fenwick does in times of crisis isn't the issue, is it? What matters is what America does.

Brilliantlight · Mar 1, 2004

Faeelin said:
well, what the duchy of grand fenwick does in times of crisis isn't the issue, is it? What matters is what America does.

My point is that compared to what has happened in the past, Moslems in the US have been treated very well. Many times in the past when an easily identified group of people did something crazy the rest of its population have been raped, beaten , robbed and killed.

Dunash · Mar 1, 2004

And Evolutionism is as much a religion as Creationism: both are unprovable and have no eyewitness testimony
http://www.icr.org/newsletters/impact/impactfeb01.html

Faeelin · Mar 1, 2004

Dunash said:
And Evolutionism is as much a religion as Creationism: both are unprovable and have no eyewitness testimony
http://www.icr.org/newsletters/impact/impactfeb01.html

No, it's not. It's a scientific theory with an enormous amount of evidence.

Where's your evidence that God made everything appear?

and, as a matter of fact, you can see evolution happen in bacteria.

Street_Disciple · Mar 1, 2004

Brilliantlight said:
After 9/11 anti-Islamic and anti-Arab riots break out all over the US, particularly in New York city and Washington DC. 500 mosques along with 300 Arab-American centers are burned down the first week. Riots cause 150,000 casualties in the first week, mostly wounded and mostly Arabs who are hopelessly outnumbered. 300,000 Arabs flee the country within that week. What happens?

where are Americans, and what did you do to them

Dunash · Mar 1, 2004

No evolution has ever been observed in bacteria http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-118b.htm.
In fact no true evolution has ever been actually observed, ever. Just like no special creation has ever been actually observed, ever. But despite 130 years of evolutionary teaching, 60% of Americans still believe in a special creation that took place less than 10,000 years ago
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040216-113955-2061r.htm

Faeelin · Mar 1, 2004

Dunash said:
No evolution has ever been observed in bacteria http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-118b.htm.
In fact no true evolution has ever been actually observed, ever. Just like no special creation has ever been actually observed, ever. But despite 130 years of evolutionary teaching, 60% of Americans still believe in a special creation that took place less than 10,000 years ago
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040216-113955-2061r.htm

I didn't mean antibiotics. I meant the fact that bacteria will pick up another bacteria's DNA.

Admiral Matt · Mar 1, 2004

"No evolution has ever been observed in bacteria http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-118b.htm.
In fact no true evolution has ever been actually observed, ever. Just like no special creation has ever been actually observed, ever. But despite 130 years of evolutionary teaching, 60% of Americans still believe in a special creation that took place less than 10,000 years ago
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040216-113955-2061r.htm"

Too tired to discredit you tonight. Maybe if you're still here and off topic tomorrow afternoon. Still, it's nice to know that most Americans are capable of ignoring what they are taught in school.

And for the record, I do see the logic in your argument that opinion polls can demonstrate the truth or falsity of a scientific theory.

Leo Caesius · Mar 1, 2004

Brilliantlight said:
Maybe, but I doubt it. Even Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell never have condoned violence in the name of Christian ideals. Considering these are probably the largest of the strongly fundamentalist churches means that it is highly unlikely that you will see any but the most obscure Christian cults calling for the deaths of Moslems. Callling for the death of infidels is not very rare in mosques all over the world.

I read your book, Robertson said. When you get through, you say, 'If I could just get a nuclear device inside Foggy Bottom, I think that's the answer,' and you say, 'We've got to blow that thing up.'

-Pat Robertson to Joel Mowbray, author of a recent book on the US State Department (which has its Washington headquarters at Foggy Bottom), on the 700 Club.

Mowbray, of course, never advocated nuking the State Department. That was all Robertson's brainchild. One might have thought that Pat Robertson was only making an off-color joke, if it weren't for the fact that he repeated it, publicly, on several other occasions.

Maybe we need a very small nuke thrown off on Foggy Bottom to shake things up like Newt Gingrich wants to do, he said in June.

If he's joking, then Pat Robertson is one sick puppy. If he's not joking, then he should be locked up in Camp X-Ray along with the other Americans who have advocated using violence against their government.

Brilliantlight · Mar 1, 2004

Leo Caesius said:
I read your book, Robertson said. When you get through, you say, 'If I could just get a nuclear device inside Foggy Bottom, I think that's the answer,' and you say, 'We've got to blow that thing up.'

-Pat Robertson to Joel Mowbray, author of a recent book on the US State Department (which has its Washington headquarters at Foggy Bottom), on the 700 Club.

Mowbray, of course, never advocated nuking the State Department. That was all Robertson's brainchild. One might have thought that Pat Robertson was only making an off-color joke, if it weren't for the fact that he repeated it, publicly, on several other occasions.

Maybe we need a very small nuke thrown off on Foggy Bottom to shake things up like Newt Gingrich wants to do, he said in June.

If he's joking, then Pat Robertson is one sick puppy. If he's not joking, then he should be locked up in Camp X-Ray along with the other Americans who have advocated using violence against their government.

Agreed, but Pat Robertson is not anywhere near my 10 favorite people I don't really know list.

Ian the Admin · Mar 2, 2004

Brilliantlight said:
Maybe, but I doubt it. Even Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell never have condoned violence in the name of Christian ideals. Considering these are probably the largest of the strongly fundamentalist churches means that it is highly unlikely that you will see any but the most obscure Christian cults calling for the deaths of Moslems. Callling for the death of infidels is not very rare in mosques all over the world.

Okay, what country were you in after September 11?

I was in the United States, where a noticable minority of people wanted to nuke various middle eastern countries, invade the whole middle east, and so forth. As for violence in the service of Christian ideals, a big chunk of the religious right is and long has been very gung-ho about warfare against enemies identified by religious or cultural terms. (e.g. during the Cold War they were at least as offended by the fact that Communism was an atheist ideology as they were that it was tyrannical, and presently they're a big source of people claiming that the whole Islamic religion is a monolithic enemy of all western culture).

And if you think "calling for the death of infidels" is at all common in a mosque in, say, France or Malaysia then you're even more ignorant of mainstream Islamic attitudes than I thought.

Ian the Admin · Mar 2, 2004

Dunash, stop posting your creationist bullshit. It is hugely off topic.

Brilliantlight · Mar 2, 2004

Ian Montgomerie said:
Okay, what country were you in after September 11?

I was in the United States, where a noticable minority of people wanted to nuke various middle eastern countries, invade the whole middle east, and so forth. As for violence in the service of Christian ideals, a big chunk of the religious right is and long has been very gung-ho about warfare against enemies identified by religious or cultural terms. (e.g. during the Cold War they were at least as offended by the fact that Communism was an atheist ideology as they were that it was tyrannical, and presently they're a big source of people claiming that the whole Islamic religion is a monolithic enemy of all western culture).

And if you think "calling for the death of infidels" is at all common in a mosque in, say, France or Malaysia then you're even more ignorant of mainstream Islamic attitudes than I thought.

Saudia Arabia is the center of Islam not France or Malaysia. Besides I said not very rare, I think it is fairly rare but not very rare. For all the talk for a few days in the US, there has been no serious terrorist acts against Moslems in the US. There weren't riots, no mosques got blown up or burned to the ground etc even in NYC and Washington DC . I have never heard even Fallwell go around saying Christians should go around killing all non-Christians or even just all Moslems. This cannont be said about quite a few clerics in SA and Iran, among other places.