Napoleon's Victory [LONG]

[Zach]

This is probably going to be quite a lengthy reply. First of all, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate your comments, they make writing this timeline all the more fun!

But on to business....

Well for your future I see lasting disdain between the two camps for generations. Another war might occr but it would something major for the CA to be threatened.

For this I see two possibilities.

I see the second possibility to be more reasonable. ITTL the German Union will become a united Germany in the next decade or so. I will create them to become more militant (as per their Pan-Germanic ideology) over time, especially at the increasing Teutonization of nearby Prussia. This will be ironic because their leader will probably be a Bonaparte king. I am conflicted as to the French reaction; they clearly will accept the creation of a unified Germany but will they view it as a supporter or rival? At first they will support it, viewing it as a buffer against a possible resurgent Russia.

In all, the Germans will probably increase their power significantly over the course of the 20th century. As for Austria...well, I am a bit of a Habsburgophile like many others on this board so there is no way they will be ejected. The Dual or Triple Monarchy will last forever ITTL.

Second a question. How did the machine gun and such get created in this TL. In OTL, we had the wars in Central Europe, the Franco-Prussian War, the Spanish-American War, the Russo-Japanese War and the colonial wars to help us develop such weapons and the tactics with which to use them. But ITTL, Europe has had a basic Pax Francia for the last century. So was there really no clue how to use the wepaons and it was a hit-or-miss kind of thing, or did people like OTL Maxim still make weapons and hope for a war like this?

There were numerous colonials wars, the Second Polish-Prussian War and the American Civil War. Not nearly as many, hence the bloody bungling of the opening battles in the Great War, mainly in Poland. When I first posted this a long time ago, someone pointed that Gatling (who is present ITTL) would have been butterflied away so I think I will change his name.

How about just letting Prussia become the Poland of OTL? Always being partitioned at the whim of victorious powers. Its obvious France has already suceeded in completely divorcing the rest of Germany from Prussia.

I think the Prussians will be either assimilated and conquered. After the German Union (made up of the victorious German states) fail to include Prussia in their union, Prussia will go their own separate way and in a future war be either conquered or assimilated.

How will France avenge the Philippines in the post war years?

By selling it to Japan

1. How about the rise of a revanchist Pan-Slavic Russia that absorbs the Slavic nationalities (who I understand are still oppressed) and goes on a rampage westwards into the rest of Europe to start WW2 in the 30's, paralleling Nazi Germany?

2. How about the Ottoman Empire becoming a Pan-Islamic/Pan-Turkic Caliphatorial-Theocracy in response to its aggressive Northern neighbor who they fight a bloody front with in TTL's WW2, similar to the Eastern Front of OTL WW2?

3. How about the German Union evolving into a genuine nation-state by sometime in the next two decades, being solid enough to resist the invading Russians?

4. How about bringing North America into the next war?

1. This really depends on the outcome of the Russian Civil War which I have not decided upon. I have three possibilities for that.
--- Czarist victory. Government forces beat leftist groups but loosens their power. This leads to reforms, more democratic government, federalization.
--- Split Russia. Czarist forces west of Urals/socialist state east of Urals. Or vice versa. The former is probably more reasonable.
--- Leftist victory. All the leftists unite under a Lenin-esque leader and defeat the Czar leading to the creation of a socialist or communist state. This is unlikely to me just because...ehhhh.

Which seems more likely/appealing to you readers? I don't think a Fascist Russia is reasonable here unless one of the first two choices happen and a crazy militaristic Czar comes to power.

2. I kind of want the Ottoman Empire to fall and be split up. I'm not sure how this will happen though. Either they try and reform and are violently split up, or they peacefully fall in the far future.

3. Germany will definitely become a true nation-state.

4. Maybe the Americans/Confederates will get involved in the next European War. Not sure yet.

One niggling thng that's been bothering me. France's annexation of Northwestern Germany was done to close holes in the continental system.

This will be done! I was actually wondering about that and I figured a new German state would demand it back anyway.

IMO this treaty actually seems fairly harsh. What makes everyone think it's mild?

I think I was comparing it to Versailles in my mind; no war guilt clause, no war criminals. It is indeed harsh but the losers also lost moreso than Germany did in OTL. Berlin and Vienna are under French occupation. They could have had a lot worse happen to them.

But communism won't go away. Your Europe will industrialize faster than OTLs, if anything, snice you've united Belgium, Luxembourg, the Rhineland, Alsace-Lorraine, and the Ruhr.

I see it this way: France embarked on industrial reforms far earlier than in OTL with maximum work hours, workers rights, minimum wage, right to unionize, etc. All this was done by the 1850s/60s so in industrial areas the workers (I like to think) are pretty happy. They live in a meritocracy so they see their peers getting promoted if they work hard. Also, (I like to think) corruption is kept at a minimum. I might be just idealistic in this view of an alternate France, though.

However, communist thinkers will still exist. I will elaborate on them in the next section because I don't think I have yet. They will take hold in agrarian Russia and make a big impact on winning the Civil War there. You're absolutely right: communism won't go away and it will definitely make a presence ITTL.

Turning to China, I imagnie the situation is rather messy.... of course.

I really want to have a powerful, imperial China ITTL. There will be fierce rivalry between China and Japan, two empires on the rise. The situation in China is not so messy. It is not pleasant and there will be demonstrations against the imperial system but for the most, they are pleased they won. They fear Japan and are nationalistic about their victorious empire beating a European one (Russia). Maybe China will become more democratic. Or maybe there will be an extreme right-wing coup. The possibilities are endless!

Also, Korea remains Chinese. Independence will be given soon and it will become a battleground area for Chinese/Japanese interest, probably sparking a Sino-Japanese War.

Whew.

 

[Faeelin]

ThI see the second possibility to be more reasonable. ITTL the German Union will become a united Germany in the next decade or so. I will create them to become more militant (as per their Pan-Germanic ideology) over time, especially at the increasing Teutonization of nearby Prussia. This will be ironic because their leader will probably be a Bonaparte king. I am conflicted as to the French reaction; they clearly will accept the creation of a unified Germany but will they view it as a supporter or rival?

Well, the Bonapartes have a huge German minority in the Rhineland, no? Is that an issue at all?Just how closely related are the Bonaparte states? Customs union? Same military equipment? They might very well play up the legacy of Charlemagne....

Are they democracies? Fascist states?

I imagine that the German Federation is a bit miffed about the fact that Prussia wasn't incorporated.

BTW, I really can't see Prussia as a great power anymore, if it was before.

By selling it to Japan

1. This really depends on the outcome of the Russian Civil War which I have not decided upon. I have three possibilities for that.
--- Czarist victory. Government forces beat leftist groups but loosens their power. This leads to reforms, more democratic government, federalization.

--- Leftist victory. All the leftists unite under a Lenin-esque leader and defeat the Czar leading to the creation of a socialist or communist state. This is unlikely to me just because...ehhhh.

Why not? Perversely, Russia is the least harmed of the three "Allied" powers. Russia's been defeated; it needs a strong leader, etc.

2. I kind of want the Ottoman Empire to fall and be split up. I'm not sure how this will happen though. Either they try and reform and are violently split up, or they peacefully fall in the far future.

Rising expectations. Their slav peoples will want their own states, and the Ottomans have been hit hard. Crack downs following the war lead to more revolts, and an Ottoman sultan is assassinated in the 1920s.

I'd actually argue that the CSA should be considerably darker than presented, but then I find the idea of them adopting emancipation in the 1880s unlikely.

Maybe China will become more democratic. Or maybe there will be an extreme right-wing coup. The possibilities are endless!

Also, Korea remains Chinese. Independence will be given soon and it will become a battleground area for Chinese/Japanese interest, probably sparking a Sino-Japanese War.

Whew.

Nitpick: Korea would be a Chinese puppet.

Personally, I find the idea of a democratic Japan versus a fascist China to be a bit amusing, so...

 

[Kriegdämmerung]

Confused just a tad. The line in your thread said that the nations in Europe were content at the end of the Congress at Copenhagen. Why would there be another European War if that was the case? Granted, covering another century without another world war would be kinda boring, but honestly, what could the pretext of this war be if Europe is pleasantly happy at the end of the war?

Also, places and groups I would like to hear about:
-Hawaii
-Australia
-Boers/South Africa (were the Briitsh any different in their colonial management, etc.)
-the evidentally neutral Switzerland

Thanks again, and update soon...

 

[Faeelin]

Confused just a tad. The line in your thread said that the nations in Europe were content at the end of the Congress at Copenhagen.

I'd be very surprised if they are.

Reading between the lines, it's clear that France could have imposed a much harsher peace on Prussia, and, for instance, integrated them into the German Confederation. Why didn't they? Afraid of a large Germany.A million German soldiers have died so the French can rest secure! So they will claim, anyway.

A growing drift between Germany and the French could help to lead to the perception that such a war could break out.

 

[Kriegdämmerung]

I'd be very surprised if they are.

Reading between the lines, it's clear that France could have imposed a much harsher peace on Prussia, and, for instance, integrated them into the German Confederation. Why didn't they? Afraid of a large Germany.A million German soldiers have died so the French can rest secure! So they will claim, anyway.

A growing drift between Germany and the French could help to lead to the perception that such a war could break out.

I too saw something along these lines. But the line still says that both sides in Europe were content, not angry. Not stating that of course Europe will stop being content, but for now the most volatile area in the world is East Asia...

 

[Faeelin]

Is the postwar map something like this?

 

[Zach]

Oooh, that is very nice. Except an independent Netherlands!

I said Europe was content because the treaty brought about peace...not war. They were content about the peace part.

 

[Herr Frage]

Are the Americans ever going to make an appearance? Sure lossing the CSA will deter them from becoming a super power, but they definitely rank as a world power. Surprised they did not jump in with France to try and grab Canada.

 

[The Federalist]

1. This really depends on the outcome of the Russian Civil War which I have not decided upon. I have three possibilities for that.
--- Czarist victory. Government forces beat leftist groups but loosens their power. This leads to reforms, more democratic government, federalization.
--- Split Russia. Czarist forces west of Urals/socialist state east of Urals. Or vice versa. The former is probably more reasonable.
--- Leftist victory. All the leftists unite under a Lenin-esque leader and defeat the Czar leading to the creation of a socialist or communist state. This is unlikely to me just because...ehhhh.

Which seems more likely/appealing to you readers? I don't think a Fascist Russia is reasonable here unless one of the first two choices happen and a crazy militaristic Czar comes to power.

I just thought the Russians would want to resort to Panslavic Fascism because they along with their Slavic brethren were put into a bad position after the War, the Russians being defeated and the Slavic nations still being oppressed between the Austrians and Ottomans. So, some Slavic Hitler has to take advantage of the people's disenfranchised feelings of defeat and the solidarity with their Slavic brethren. Didn't Russia enter the war because of Panslavism? IOTL, small elements within the German Army of WW1 saw the war as a "race war", this was the kind of thinking that gave birth to Nazism in WW2. I'd imagine there would be some similar racial ideology running through some Russian soldiers during the war. Slavic Nazism could build on that just like OTL Nazism did.

Also, you mentioned there are strong leftist forces in Russia? What if Slavic Hitler says he wants to save Russia from the Godless Communists like OTL Hitler did in Germany? Maybe the Reds take over for a short while, then a Slavic Nazi coup displaces them afterwards.

 

[Titus_Pullo]

I think you should also include Hitler in a Germany seeking a Pan Germanic union. Hitler need not be a politician in this timeline, maybe a neo-Romantic artist glorifying Germanic myths in his art.You could also make his obsessive hatred of the Russians begin with a short stint in the army after the war.

By the way, are the German states still supplying the French army with troops? Or would that be an issue with German nationalists who are tired of sending their young men off to fight whenever France calls for it?

 

[Zach]

Also, you mentioned there are strong leftist forces in Russia? What if Slavic Hitler says he wants to save Russia from the Godless Communists like OTL Hitler did in Germany? Maybe the Reds take over for a short while, then a Slavic Nazi coup displaces them afterwards.

Yes! I like this idea! I like this idea very much...

I think you should also include Hitler in a Germany seeking a Pan Germanic union. Hitler need not be a politician in this timeline, maybe a neo-Romantic artist glorifying Germanic myths in his art.You could also make his obsessive hatred of the Russians begin with a short stint in the army after the war.

By the way, are the German states still supplying the French army with troops? Or would that be an issue with German nationalists who are tired of sending their young men off to fight whenever France calls for it?

I thiiiiiiiiiink Hitler may have been butterflied out of this TL a long time ago. Maybe a totally different man with the same mustache/feelings/look/ideology/surname would exist?

Well, in the war the German troops were allied with France so the point was moot but before that (and after) the Germans never supplied/will supply the French with troops. The French have plenty.

Are the Americans ever going to make an appearance? Sure lossing the CSA will deter them from becoming a super power, but they definitely rank as a world power. Surprised they did not jump in with France to try and grab Canada.

Yeah, they are going to fight Japan eventually, maybe get involved in Europe. And Latin America, of course! I would like to see an invasion of Canada but I don't know how to incorporate this.

Also, places and groups I would like to hear about:
-Hawaii
-Australia
-Boers/South Africa (were the Briitsh any different in their colonial management, etc.)
-the evidentally neutral Switzerland

Noted.

ALSO:
MAP OF POSTWAR EUROPE. This page was getting to texty anyway

I am going to fix Germany in a 1912 map. How does Poland look?

 

[The Federalist]

Yes! I like this idea! I like this idea very much...

I hope that means you're gonna put in a Fascist-Panslavic Russia! If you are then I'm really excited!!!!

 

[Zach]

It makes sense though. Also, it should be Czarist (only because I made an entire Romanov family tree and that is NOT going to waste). So it will be a lot like Fascist Italy, with a monarch and some powerful guy. And they will be pretty reactionary and anti-French naturally.

Does this make sense or am I dreaming? At first a Communist government will take over but they will be way too Stalinist and this doesn't go over well so there is another war and the Fascists take over. They will ally with the Prussians who are pretty extreme themselves. Thus an alliance for a Second World War.

Japan may ally with them against Britain for her imperialist ideas, thus we will have an Anglo-French accord. Now...how do I get the United States to invade Canada? Nah, it would make more sense for the US to be on the side of Britain because Japan is the greater of two evils in the Pacific.

I am sort of talking to myself right now (it's 1:15 AM!) but do my ramblings make sense?

 

[bm79]

French Airship Companies

My ideas for the two French dirigible companies are: La Lyonnaise de l'Aéronautique and the Compaignie Montgolfière-Zeppelin. Why not? In this timeline, it's just as likely that Zeppelin would have worked in France than in one of the German states...

 

[The Federalist]

It makes sense though. Also, it should be Czarist (only because I made an entire Romanov family tree and that is NOT going to waste). So it will be a lot like Fascist Italy, with a monarch and some powerful guy. And they will be pretty reactionary and anti-French naturally.

Does this make sense or am I dreaming? At first a Communist government will take over but they will be way too Stalinist and this doesn't go over well so there is another war and the Fascists take over. They will ally with the Prussians who are pretty extreme themselves. Thus an alliance for a Second World War.

That sounds pretty good and plausible if you ask me but the Fascist don't have to take power after another war, maybe just a coup would do it.

Also, IOTL, the Communists were pretty popular with the people because they had great PR with catchy slogans like "Bread, Land and Peace" or something, just butterfly away those elements, making the Reds seem like snobbish, know-it-all, intellectuals and thus unpopular with the people and the Fascists could take advantage of that with the powerful oratory strength of their one man propaganda machine, Slavic Hitler, (you're gonna have to come up with a name for him though, we can't keep calling him that).

Japan may ally with them against Britain for her imperialist ideas, thus we will have an Anglo-French accord. Now...how do I get the United States to invade Canada? Nah, it would make more sense for the US to be on the side of Britain because Japan is the greater of two evils in the Pacific.

I am sort of talking to myself right now (it's 1:15 AM!) but do my ramblings make sense?

I had a strange idea for an "evil" US and a "good" Confederacy facing off in a WW2 setting but that kind of belongs in another TL.

 

[Kalan]

What has happend with Prussia after the war? With annother war lost, territory lost, and the formation of a stronger german union, it is clear that prussia has no future. So i could see a popular uprising against the King and the nobels and an attempt to enter the german union.

 

[Herr Frage]

Japan may ally with them against Britain for her imperialist ideas, thus we will have an Anglo-French accord. Now...how do I get the United States to invade Canada? Nah, it would make more sense for the US to be on the side of Britain because Japan is the greater of two evils in the Pacific.

I am sort of talking to myself right now (it's 1:15 AM!) but do my ramblings make sense?

Yes.

But why would the US regard Japan as the greater of two evils. Canada is the obvious target for American expansionism. Ethnicity language and religion are similar, not to mention they have tried it twice already. Why they would have to have Hawwaii to even dream of a shere of influence in Asia, and it would make more sense for the British to get the islands ITTL.

The US is more likely to focus on dominating the Americas with the CS as Junior partner. Why fight a war on the far side of the Psacific when the weakened British Empire is right next door. Canada for the US to make up for territory lost in the CW and an Anglo population they could possibly win over. For the CS Bermuda, the Bahamas, Jamiaca and the other isles are there for the taking to establish themselves as the premiere power in the Caribean.

British Hawaii would also be a potential target. A new Manifest destiny which calls for the Brother Republics to drive out the European powers and build a Fortress America. They could even cite the madness of the Great War as a reason the Europeans should be kept out of the hemisphere.

With all this I just do not see a great conflict of interest with Japan.

 

[Zach]

I could see an American-Japanese Accord.

Also, Hawaii is British ITTL and will be a target for the Japanese (or the Americans) later on. An American-Japanese division of the Pacific seems crazy to me, but then again if you think about it, so were other things in OTL.

What has happend with Prussia after the war? With annother war lost, territory lost, and the formation of a stronger german union, it is clear that prussia has no future. So i could see a popular uprising against the King and the nobels and an attempt to enter the german union.

Prussia exists because 1) Napoleon III feared that its inclusion into the German Union would make it to powerful and 2) the German Union states that were a part of the Continental Alliance didn't want their former enemy Prussia allied with them anyway.

 

[Herr Frage]

I could see an American-Japanese Accord.

Also, Hawaii is British ITTL and will be a target for the Japanese (or the Americans) later on. An American-Japanese division of the Pacific seems crazy to me, but then again if you think about it, so were other things in OTL.

What I am trying to understand is why it would be crazy? The Americans are weaker ITTL and would be most concerned with establishing their control in their own hemisphere. OTL they were number one by this point in the hemisphere and secure in that began to move in on the Pacific and Asia.

Without Hawaii they are effectively shut out of the Pacific. It not that the Yanks and the Southerners are asny less greedy buggers, just a matter of what they would be reaching for.

For their part the Japanese might want to court Washington(not Richmond as the Confederates are locked out of the PAcific). England has proven unreliable as an ally, and Russia is a war waiting to happen again. The Americans however are rich, ambitious. and conveniently far away. Inicidentally i imagine Japanese nationalism will get a post from having gained a victory despite fghting on the losing side.

 

[Kriegdämmerung]

I could see an American-Japanese Accord.

Also, Hawaii is British ITTL and will be a target for the Japanese (or the Americans) later on. An American-Japanese division of the Pacific seems crazy to me, but then again if you think about it, so were other things in OTL.

Thanks for mentioning that!

Now I have to agree with Herr Frage on this one. The Japanese are basically the opposite of what they were in OTL, winners on the losing side. And since nothing's been said about them losing territory, I'd guess France just tells China "Your problem now..."

I see Hawaii as an American prospect, solely because, unlike OTL, the Japanese need to keep enough forces in Asia considering China is a relatively industrialized country ITTL. A two-front sucked for Japan in OTL, ITTL it would be overwhelming. Here's something though, have Slavic Hitler (yeah, he needs a name...Serafim maybe from Moscow 2042?) offer the US Alaska in exchange for attacking China, maybe get the Spanish colonies in the Carribean and Phillippines (would TTL US be interested in the Phillippines?)

Just my two cents...