In a scenario akin to the fine stories by @varyar where Britain sues for peace after a Dunkirk disaster (hey, it's alliterative), the Nazis defeat the USSR, pushing them behind the Urals, and end up in a Cold War with the Americans and friends, what would the military of a modern-day Nazi Germany look like? What would modern Nazi military doctrine look like? How would the Nazi military be organized? Would the Waffen-SS replace the Heer or would the system of two parallel armies (three if you count Luftwaffe ground units) continue? What about the equipment of the military of a modern-day Nazi Germany?
Military of a modern-day Nazi Germany
- Thread starter Whiteshore
- Start date
They probably have a period of restructuring or perestroyka like the USSR did especially in regards to the military circa 1990s, and assuming if a war in the early 90s happens like the OTL 1st Iraq war then they would move away from a cold war type structure that focuses on massed tanks and mechanized infantry to something more lean and modular like what the US has today as a result of the advent of precision guided weapons. All in all their military might follow a similar logic to the USSR military as their positions in the Cold War would be somewhat similar seeing as how they would struggle to keep up in the arms race in terms of spending and technology. They might follow the Iraqi military model in that they'd have the political army as the principle military force, but will have conscript divisions as well outside of that, so basically just more powerful SS in the army as the dominant force, an extension of the party's will. They would be forced to adopt a defensive posture considering they would just be sitting idle in Europe for the most part in a war, unless whatever remains of the USSR joins in, with the small exception they might try and drop tons of forces by air over England. So, their military thinking would be a great deal different than the USSR who was preparing for a massive confrontation with NATO inside of Europe where they would take the initiative as they would say, and launch a titanic drive to the west. There would obviously be no need to do that kind of thing in the case of a Nazi Cold War. They probably do a massive defense in depth against any possible invasion by NATO.
Instead of completely collapsing in the sixties, could it "only" let most of its territories/allies goes to focus on the western greater reich, and surviving as a rogue state like this until the 21st century (with the help of nuclear weapons) or alternatively, after a collapse a fascist/authoritarian governemy takes control of Germany proper, while it wouldn't be nazi germany anymore it would still have its industry and part of its army.
* Multiplies DPRK's total armed force manpower *
Sh*t, they could invade any continental European (except USSR/Russia) country just by overwhelming their civilian population.
trajen777
Banned
that is a really tricky question -- I would guess you would have
1. Massive population increase (lots of pressure to have kids to fill up the eastern conquests -- offers of free lands could bring back lots of Germans from Argentina, Brazil etc also) in addition to the forced taking of kids who could pass as Aryan decent from conquered territories to German families (so think population of 120- 150 mm)
2. Baltic states - Poland - large swaths of Russia settled with people either killed or pushed east for German farmers.
3. Then comes who succeeds Hitler ---
a. Goring - Army --- you would have a softening of the Nazi party and more of fitting into the rest of the world situation. In this the SS is minimized with the Army taking over
b. Heydrich - Himmler -- you would have a Mega North Korea. IN this the army is minimized and the SS is the dominant force
1. Massive population increase (lots of pressure to have kids to fill up the eastern conquests -- offers of free lands could bring back lots of Germans from Argentina, Brazil etc also) in addition to the forced taking of kids who could pass as Aryan decent from conquered territories to German families (so think population of 120- 150 mm)
2. Baltic states - Poland - large swaths of Russia settled with people either killed or pushed east for German farmers.
3. Then comes who succeeds Hitler ---
a. Goring - Army --- you would have a softening of the Nazi party and more of fitting into the rest of the world situation. In this the SS is minimized with the Army taking over
b. Heydrich - Himmler -- you would have a Mega North Korea. IN this the army is minimized and the SS is the dominant force
In varyar's stories, the Germans have a large mechanized/armored force because the US and its allies have forces stationed on the other side of the Urals.
I think the make up of the Nazi military would be heavily dictated by situations like that. If they don't have a land border with a major opponent, they probably aren't going to invest a lot of money in armor.
I think the make up of the Nazi military would be heavily dictated by situations like that. If they don't have a land border with a major opponent, they probably aren't going to invest a lot of money in armor.
All this assumes the Heer isn't disbanded by the Party and replaced with the SS. They were irrationally paranoid of a military coup, and by the 1950s at least I could see the Heer (absent any Luftwaffe formations Goring husbands provided he is still around) being totally put to pasture in place of the SS as the Party's only military force.
My own assumption is a heavily mechanized force comprised almost entirely of armored and grenadier formations with purely infantry formations being something of an afterthought. Basically the SS formations are structured around being armored fists that smash everything before them, so depend on their superiority. They support the various "Nationalist" forces, while policing the less desirable members of their European conquests.
The Luftwaffe depends heavily on whether Goring is in charge or who succeeds him.
The Navy, is the poor third cousin.
trajen777
Banned
I agree with your comments - it all depends on who takes over for Hitler in 45- 6- 7 -8 ====if it is Goring i see less Nazi -- if Himmler More Nazi ---- My gut is that Hitler becomes more sick and loses some ability to manage. Goring and Army take more power -- Himmler everyone hates (so see him getting the Beria treatment), aos you end up with a power structure of Goring + Army vs Himmler + SS -- with winner being Goring and the army. In this stance over the years you would see a watered down Nazi structure.
There would be little R&D money spent on weapons because they conclude that theirs had already won WW2 and were good enough to keep the god-less Bolsheviks at bay if Russia was ever foolish enough to suggest a re-match.
If Goering came out on top, there would be few changes in the Wehrmacht. R&D money would be scarce as Germany rebuilds after WW2. As Questar suggested, Nazi AFV development would stagnate with R&D limited to improving reliability of Panther 3 and Tiger 3.
More Katchen APCs based on Czech 38 T chassis.
Infantrymen would still be armed with minor upgrades of Sturmgwehr 44 and MG 42.
What little Webrmacht R&D money was available would be spent on better anti-tank rockets.
Warren SS would be limited to patrolling Eastern Territories.
Goering would reserve R&D money to updating the Luftwaffe's transport fleet and improving reliability of jet fighters. Few Luft '46 suggestions would fly. Ju 87 Stuka would be replaced by a ground-attack airplane resembling Su25 Frogfoot or A-10 Thunderbolt. More reliable helicopters would mean few paratroopers needed during the Cold War. FalkschirmJAGERS would focus on deep-penetration, secretive covert operations.
Penemunde's efforts would be limited to improving reliability and accuracy of V4 and V5 missiles.
Luftwaffe would second squadrons to Graf Zeppelin and the few subsequent aircraft carriers.
The U-boat fleet would be overhauled.
If Goering came out on top, there would be few changes in the Wehrmacht. R&D money would be scarce as Germany rebuilds after WW2. As Questar suggested, Nazi AFV development would stagnate with R&D limited to improving reliability of Panther 3 and Tiger 3.
More Katchen APCs based on Czech 38 T chassis.
Infantrymen would still be armed with minor upgrades of Sturmgwehr 44 and MG 42.
What little Webrmacht R&D money was available would be spent on better anti-tank rockets.
Warren SS would be limited to patrolling Eastern Territories.
Goering would reserve R&D money to updating the Luftwaffe's transport fleet and improving reliability of jet fighters. Few Luft '46 suggestions would fly. Ju 87 Stuka would be replaced by a ground-attack airplane resembling Su25 Frogfoot or A-10 Thunderbolt. More reliable helicopters would mean few paratroopers needed during the Cold War. FalkschirmJAGERS would focus on deep-penetration, secretive covert operations.
Penemunde's efforts would be limited to improving reliability and accuracy of V4 and V5 missiles.
Luftwaffe would second squadrons to Graf Zeppelin and the few subsequent aircraft carriers.
The U-boat fleet would be overhauled.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Goring hate the concept of helicopters?
Those heavy armored formations aren't going to help very much with the inevitable massive guerrilla war in the East.
Yes. I think it's more likely the SS would jump on the tech, which they already did to a degree, as a way to further infiltrate itself into the paratrooper business and take power from the Luftwaffe.
I guess my model would be that the Waffen-SS and Luftwaffe are the two big players in the Nazi military. The Luftwaffe derives its power from being the main controller of the Reich's nuclear arsenal and its interceptor forces. I imagine they probably maintain the Herman Goring Panzer division as a propaganda/parade unit that looks very shiny but doesn't actually ever fight. I can see them maintaining control over the Fallschirm units and also the Luftwaffe ground forces turned into a kind of airbase defense force.
The Waffen-SS controls the bulk of the professional Nazi military. They've control over most Panzer and panzergrenadier forces, as well as gebirgsjager and...let's call them "luftsturm" light infantry forces mounted in helicopters. They probably also have control over the special operations forces of the Reich along side their civilians SS counterparts.
The Wehrmacht would still exist as a conscript force to support the Waffen-SS. They provide the logistics, maintenance, and other combat service support personnel. They also provide conscripts for the light infantry garrison forces in the East.
The Kreigsmarine is the red headed stepchild of the Nazi military. It's structure is built around a fleet-in-being and the only reason it has any power at all is because of its ballistic missile submarines.
The Waffen-SS controls the bulk of the professional Nazi military. They've control over most Panzer and panzergrenadier forces, as well as gebirgsjager and...let's call them "luftsturm" light infantry forces mounted in helicopters. They probably also have control over the special operations forces of the Reich along side their civilians SS counterparts.
The Wehrmacht would still exist as a conscript force to support the Waffen-SS. They provide the logistics, maintenance, and other combat service support personnel. They also provide conscripts for the light infantry garrison forces in the East.
The Kreigsmarine is the red headed stepchild of the Nazi military. It's structure is built around a fleet-in-being and the only reason it has any power at all is because of its ballistic missile submarines.
A modern day Nazi germany would have a military spread into two parts: the militia and the professionals
Militia would be all german males from 18-45 not in active military duty, and all former military personnel that settled the east as farmer-soldiers (Roman method).
Professional forces would be the Waffen SS, the Heer, the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine. Of these, the SS would be the most powerful, in its intended political role and because the heer would get a lower priority than the SS.
Special forces would be under the SS.
Kriegsmarine would be a combination of an enormous Uboot fleet and a fleet in being of battleships and carriers.
More importantly would be the division of the new world order in Europe, which as far as I could discern would be centered around a Greater Germanic Federation (Low Countries, Denmark, Grossdeutschland, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway) in a larger european confederacy as Speer envisioned, led by the countries respective SS/ fascist parties. Partisans and guerillias would die down as it became clear that germany was there to stay.
Economic collapse would be nigh-impossible, because of the radically different method of economic organisation. Strategic bombing would be impractical because of the new city layout as Feder intended. (many smaller cities, decentralised industry).
Political collapse would be weird, as after the war, the SS would retake its place as the bringers of an new germanic state. After the death of hitler, the leader of the SS (either Himmler or someone else) would take control.
Militia would be all german males from 18-45 not in active military duty, and all former military personnel that settled the east as farmer-soldiers (Roman method).
Professional forces would be the Waffen SS, the Heer, the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine. Of these, the SS would be the most powerful, in its intended political role and because the heer would get a lower priority than the SS.
Special forces would be under the SS.
Kriegsmarine would be a combination of an enormous Uboot fleet and a fleet in being of battleships and carriers.
More importantly would be the division of the new world order in Europe, which as far as I could discern would be centered around a Greater Germanic Federation (Low Countries, Denmark, Grossdeutschland, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway) in a larger european confederacy as Speer envisioned, led by the countries respective SS/ fascist parties. Partisans and guerillias would die down as it became clear that germany was there to stay.
Economic collapse would be nigh-impossible, because of the radically different method of economic organisation. Strategic bombing would be impractical because of the new city layout as Feder intended. (many smaller cities, decentralised industry).
Political collapse would be weird, as after the war, the SS would retake its place as the bringers of an new germanic state. After the death of hitler, the leader of the SS (either Himmler or someone else) would take control.
The split militia/professional system was in place during the war, where everyone was conscripted at a certain age (after completing a year of labor service) and then sent into combat or into the reserves, as needed. That system would continue to exist. There would be professionals in the Heer. The Waffen-SS would be all-volunteer but it would have two 'tiers', a core of elite ethnic Germans in divisions like Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, and a secondary group of volunteers recruited from satellite countries. Axis satellite states would have their own armies. France and Britain would be demilitarized but independent.
The Kriegsmarine would have diesel-electric submarines for service in the Baltic and coastal areas, as well as SSNs (Atomgetreibeneunterseeboote) and SSBNs (Raketenunterseeboote).
Would Germany have a nuclear triad, or would it have only SSBNs like France and the UK IOTL?
The Kriegsmarine would have diesel-electric submarines for service in the Baltic and coastal areas, as well as SSNs (Atomgetreibeneunterseeboote) and SSBNs (Raketenunterseeboote).
Would Germany have a nuclear triad, or would it have only SSBNs like France and the UK IOTL?
trajen777
Banned
I cant see Himmler taking power. You need a more charismatic person to lead a far right wing. Dictators on the far right or left (Hitler - Stalin - Mao) were there by the power of the cult. Himmler would have went the way of Beria. If the SS / hard core Nazi would have stayed you need someone else. I think you would have seen more of a right center take over (Romell or a similar hero), or a right center coalition (Goering etc). Each generation would go further towards the center --
You think the Luftwaffe would let the Kreigsmarine have a monopoly on nuclear weapons?