"Meiji" alternatives?

[Ellie]

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed countless times, but I'd like to ask what other possible "Meiji" alternatives there are. By this, I mean non-European countries undergoing a transformation from more traditional forms of economy to economic powers, be they regional or great.

Certain conditions make a country more poised to do this--a mostly mono-ethnic population, a relatively urban population, a high literacy rate, and internal stability.

Let's say we put our PoD at around 1750 to give some room. Is Japan the only real contender for this? Korea has a mostly mono-ethnic population, but urbanization is an issue. Could there be others?

 

[HIM Dogson]

OTL Siam joined Japan as a modernized nation under King Mongkut. Vietnam is definitely a possibility, and maybe Burma is. The problem for both is that they have colonial powers breathing down their necks, while Japan didn't.

 

[Shiva]

OTL Siam joined Japan as a modernized nation under King Mongkut. Vietnam is definitely a possibility, and maybe Burma is. The problem for both is that they have colonial powers breathing down their necks, while Japan didn't.

Actually Japan did, America and Russia were both eyeballing Japan. It was America forcing an Unequal Treaty on Japan that caused the Meiji reforms to happen in the first place.

 

[Avrorrange]

Actually Japan did, America and Russia were both eyeballing Japan. It was America forcing an Unequal Treaty on Japan that caused the Meiji reforms to happen in the first place.

Unequal treaty isn't the same as full fledged colonization like Vietnam and Burma.

OTL Siam joined Japan as a modernized nation under King Mongkut. Vietnam is definitely a possibility, and maybe Burma is. The problem for both is that they have colonial powers breathing down their necks, while Japan didn't.

Speaking of Siam,what exactly was the level of modernization Siam had by the early 1900s?It was always cited as a successful example of a nation modernizing but it doesn't seem to be doing significantly much better than some other countries in SE who had been under full colonization despite the head start in modernizing.

 

[da Racontor]

Unequal treaty isn't the same as full fledged colonization like Vietnam and Burma.

If you give a power an unequal treaty, then he is going to want a trade port...

 

[Alon]

Belgium was the second country in Europe to industrialize; it's not mono-ethnic. Please let go of racist tropes about how having minorities in your country prevents economic development.

 

[Avrorrange]

If you give a power an unequal treaty, then he is going to want a trade port...

And the western powers never got leased territories out of Japan like they did with China.

 

[da Racontor]

And the western powers never got leased territories out of Japan like they did with China.

Portugal was doing an earlier form of it prior to the Tokugawa Shogunate, and my implication is if it wasn't for the Meiji Restoration and the sudden modernization of Japan trade ports could have been the next step for western powers to subjugate Japan.

 

[Avrorrange]

Portugal was doing an earlier form of it prior to the Tokugawa Shogunate, and my implication is if it wasn't for the Meiji Restoration and the sudden modernization of Japan trade ports could have been the next step for western powers to subjugate Japan.

Portugal wasn't in any position to colonise Japan in any form at any time,even pre-Tokugawa Shogunate.

The western powers had plenty of opportunities to get concession territory out of Japan if they wanted it.They even defeated Japan militarily at various points during the 19th century when the daimyos and Samurais got uppity with the expel the barbarian business and attacked western ships.If they wanted concessions,they would have gotten it.As it was,the western powers were satisfied with financial compensation only.Unlike China,there's really not that much the western powers wanted from Japan other than an opportunity for trade.

 

[Ellie]

Belgium was the second country in Europe to industrialize; it's not mono-ethnic. Please let go of racist tropes about how having minorities in your country prevents economic development.

Yes, I guess there's a slight exception to make out of Belgium, but it's not like the people of Belgium were completely-unrelated and had vastly differing interests. What I'm talking about is a country having many ethnic groups with differing interests. There's a difference between the ethnic diversity of Belgium and that of, say, India or most of Africa.

EDIT: I also don't mean to say that it "prevents economic development", just that conflicting ethnic groups may put pressure on the country. I don't think that's a "racist" conclusion.

 

[Intransigent Southerner]

Yes, but it's not like the people of Belgium were completely-unrelated and had vastly differing interests. What I'm talking about is a country having many ethnic groups with differing interests. There's a difference between the ethnic diversity of Belgium and that of, say, India or most of Africa.

Mysore was doing a fairly good job at modernization before British destruction of it despite its ethnic and religious diversity.

 

[Ellie]

Mysore was doing a fairly good job at modernization before British destruction of it despite its ethnic and religious diversity.

I suppose so. After all, if any country is going to resist the British, I believe it would be Mysore rather than the Mughals due to Mysore innovations in arms.

 

[Kibbutznik]

Egypt is a very likely candidate. In fact, the ruling dynasty was so successful in it's modernization that it was baled as the power that would inherit Turkey's 'Half European, Half Middle Eastern' great power status. One can even say that the Japanese actually 'Ali'd' themselves, since Egypt began modernizing in the 1830's.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Egypt is a very likely candidate. In fact, the ruling dynasty was so successful in it's modernization that it was baled as the power that would inherit Turkey's 'Half European, Half Middle Eastern' great power status. One can even say that the Japanese actually 'Ali'd' themselves, since Egypt began modernizing in the 1830's.

Yep. Egypt was doing well in that era.

A few I think might have been able to pull it off:

*Bengal - Had a thriving textile industry as well as a minor amount of resources, if it had avoided British conquest, could it have done better?
*Korea - If the Hangul script had been promulgated more, Korea might have had literacy comparable to Japan, it seems it could've been the Belgium to Japan's England, to make a comparison.
*Madagascar - Would never have been an important power like Japan, but could have been like Thailand if the rulers had been more skilled and forward thinking like Thailand or Japan. Very doable because of the island location of the country.

Possibly one of the interior African kingdoms like the Wassulu of Samori Touré or Wadai or maybe Darfur might have been able to survive into the modern age, if survival is all you want. They were out of the way and led by skilled enough rulers. I find it interesting how they lasted into the 20th century. Maybe if they adopted tactics like late 20th century African warlords they might have been able to achieve a favourable treaty from France to keep their powerbase intact?

 

[Alon]

Yes, I guess there's a slight exception to make out of Belgium, but it's not like the people of Belgium were completely-unrelated and had vastly differing interests. What I'm talking about is a country having many ethnic groups with differing interests. There's a difference between the ethnic diversity of Belgium and that of, say, India or most of Africa.

Economically, all of the industry was in Wallonia. Politically, the Walloons wanted a secular government and reunification with France (or, failing that, French republican-style government), while the Flemings wanted more role for Catholicism and were anti-French.

 

[123456789blaaa]

As has been detailed before, the Ottomans could conceivably have become a Great Power if they had won the 1877 Russo-Turkish war. They did have a Meiji equivalent called Tanzimat. They were making tremendous progress from their lowest point in 1800 but the war was an ENORMOUS disaster (it's notable though that even with the destruction, they were able to survive and could have conceivably maintained themselves as a lesser power till modern day if they hadn't entered WWI). Just have Huseyin Avni Pasha survive his assassination and he can actually lead efficiently instead of the army fighting against itself. There are a bunch of threads on or involving this topic on this forum which you can search for. A now-banned member called Abdul Hadi Pasha was the instigator for most of these and has apparently spent most of his adult life researching it for a timeline-turned-novel. Here's one thread. If you're interested, he appears to be slowly continuing off this site.

Another contender would be China. I'm not sure but surely having the person leading the Taiping Rebellion be intelligent and not literally insane would help? Weird millennialist cults have overthrown and replaced dynasties before (see the Ming frex). It's just that they're intelligent and can moderate afterwards. The scale of the rebellion was tremendous so it seems reasonable. On the other hand, you could also have Zeng Guofan turn against the Qing and replace it instead of stepping down (here's an unfinished TL on it). In both scenarios, modernizing is goingt to face a lot of problems and it won't be easy. They still won't have the inherent issues of the Qing though.

I would also add that in general, industrialization is really really hard. Japan had a ton of advantages above and beyond what you mentioned.

 

[XanXar]

*Bengal - Had a thriving textile industry as well as a minor amount of resources, if it had avoided British conquest, could it have done better?

Very easy, that one. Siraj-Ud-Daulah wins the Battle of the Plassey, probably due to finding out about the conspiracy against him. From this, he can hopefully purge his court of all the subversive elements, and then it's very much possible they could be a regional power, especially if they take some adaptions from the EIC. Also, it would be best if Siraj-Ud-Daulah swallowed some pride and sided with the Marathas, (as well as the French) removing a major danger to the polity and can focus on modernisation. Add some kind of agricultural revolution (and it's consequences) and a revamping of the succession system and it's clear sailing from there on.

 

[Booster Gold]

Belgium was the second country in Europe to industrialize; it's not mono-ethnic. Please let go of racist tropes about how having minorities in your country prevents economic development.

And for that matter, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the first country to industrialise, wasn't mono-ethnic either. Unless you consider Gaels and Anglo-saxons to be a single ethnicity, in which case good luck to ya...

 

[Kibbutznik]

And for that matter, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the first country to industrialise, wasn't mono-ethnic either. Unless you consider Gaels and Anglo-saxons to be a single ethnicity, in which case good luck to ya...

Although Belgium and Britain had multi-ethnic societies, their economies were dominated by a specific national group: the English in Britain, and the French-speaking aristocrats and industrialists of Belgium.

Not all countries have such a clear-cut linguistic hierarchy.

 

[Booster Gold]

Although Belgium and Britain had multi-ethnic societies, their economies were dominated by a specific national group: the English in Britain, and the French-speaking aristocrats and industrialists of Belgium.

Not all countries have such a clear-cut linguistic hierarchy.

Dominated by the English? Really? Is that how Glasgow, Scotland, became the second city of the British Empire and the fourth largest city (behind only London, Paris, and Berlin) in Europe at the turn of the 20th century?