Map Challenge: Bavarian Empire
- Thread starter Tetsu
- Start date
Upper and Lower Bavaria reunited earlier, manage to get crown from the Pope, becomes the seat of an Elector for the HRE. HRE declines faster than in OTL, perhaps as a result of stronger Ottomans? Bavaria rises to fill its place.
Edit: What's 16 - Transylvania?
Edit: What's 16 - Transylvania?
Max Sinister
Banned
At some point, the Wittelsbachs inherited Tyrol, Brandenburg and Holland too, but lost them later. That would be a good start (they might exchange Holland later in history). Since Germany looks as if the North and West belong to someone else, I'd guess that this someone also owns Holland and gave Bavaria some other lands in Germany for their loss (like Napoleon did, and I can imagine some Napoleon was at work here).
Max Sinister
Banned
@Justin: Yes, probably, maybe with another name.
Could be that the Habsburgs died out and the Wittelsbachs inherited everything.
Or 1273(?) a Wittelsbach candidate was elected instead of Rudolph von Habsburg, against Ottokar Przemysl, so they got Austria, Styria, Carinthia and Bohemia.
Could be that the Habsburgs died out and the Wittelsbachs inherited everything.
Or 1273(?) a Wittelsbach candidate was elected instead of Rudolph von Habsburg, against Ottokar Przemysl, so they got Austria, Styria, Carinthia and Bohemia.
Max Sinister said:
Nah. They might have got Austria, Styria, and Carinthia in such an event, but Bohemia would have remained a Premyslid possession. Plus, at this time, Upper and Lower Bavaria were divided, and an Upper Bavarian Emperor throwing his weight around would surely only serve to entrench resistance in Lower Bavaria, a la the Swiss with the Habsburgs.
Redbeard
Banned
I think we can have a fairly late PoD and I suggest the Battle of Hanau in late October 1813. In OTL an Austro-Baviarian army under the Bavarian General Wrede tried to block Napoleon's retreat from Leipzig, but were brushed aside, not at least because they ran out of ammo in the midst of battle ( a staff officer had forgotten the ammo train at Würzburg!).
It will not be difficult with minor PoDs to have the Bavarians win this battle and kill/capture Napoleon. That will drastically change the roles in Germany - in short Prussia's role will be much diminished and that of Bavaria magnified. The Bavarians apparently had plans about dominating southern Germany and in a TL like this they will have splendid opportunity. Wrede will be a splendid organiser in this TL.
In the post war years they will first of all stand as those who liberated Germany from Napoleon, and will increasingly find opposition from the conservative Austrians, but will easily find support in Germany. So we have a conflict between the Habsburgs and a Bavarian led German federation of some kind and the Bavarians/Germans winning all-out. Could be followed by/combined with a claim on the Imperial Throne. A Catholic Bavarian Monarch can easier do that than a protestant Prussian, and anyway the Wittelsbacher had done it before in 18th century. Why not have the Bavarians claim rebirth to the HRE and in that process (through a number of lucky campaigns) swallow the Habsburg's posessions - those whimps who gave up the HRE just because they were scared of some frogs...
At some time I guess the Prussians and other N.Germans will be pissed about the S.German/Catholic dominance, but judging from your map the Emperor in Munich and the King of Denmark has found together in oppressing the rebellious N.Germans - and the King of Denmark rewarded with Slesvig-Holsten and possibly more (Oldenburg and Lauenburg?).
The Kingdom of Prussia apparently is gone, and Ruhr seem to be included in the Kingdom of Bavaria.
Alsass-Lothringen being German could be the result already at the first post-Napoleonic peace agreement, but could of course also be the result of a Franco-German war.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
It will not be difficult with minor PoDs to have the Bavarians win this battle and kill/capture Napoleon. That will drastically change the roles in Germany - in short Prussia's role will be much diminished and that of Bavaria magnified. The Bavarians apparently had plans about dominating southern Germany and in a TL like this they will have splendid opportunity. Wrede will be a splendid organiser in this TL.
In the post war years they will first of all stand as those who liberated Germany from Napoleon, and will increasingly find opposition from the conservative Austrians, but will easily find support in Germany. So we have a conflict between the Habsburgs and a Bavarian led German federation of some kind and the Bavarians/Germans winning all-out. Could be followed by/combined with a claim on the Imperial Throne. A Catholic Bavarian Monarch can easier do that than a protestant Prussian, and anyway the Wittelsbacher had done it before in 18th century. Why not have the Bavarians claim rebirth to the HRE and in that process (through a number of lucky campaigns) swallow the Habsburg's posessions - those whimps who gave up the HRE just because they were scared of some frogs...
At some time I guess the Prussians and other N.Germans will be pissed about the S.German/Catholic dominance, but judging from your map the Emperor in Munich and the King of Denmark has found together in oppressing the rebellious N.Germans - and the King of Denmark rewarded with Slesvig-Holsten and possibly more (Oldenburg and Lauenburg?).
The Kingdom of Prussia apparently is gone, and Ruhr seem to be included in the Kingdom of Bavaria.
Alsass-Lothringen being German could be the result already at the first post-Napoleonic peace agreement, but could of course also be the result of a Franco-German war.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
Max Sinister
Banned
Thande said:
I'm from Germany too, and I'm writing more about AH than Steffen...
Max Sinister
Banned
I thought he wasn't, since he said he was in the CDU party, but in Bavaria, the CDU is called CSU.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Why is 6 Bremen? Maybe you meant Munster?
I should rename Croatia to Slavonia. That is the area of the earlier, larger Slavonia.
I'd make Transylvania smaller. The Romanian-Hungarian border of today doesn't reflect that of the historical region.
Is it just me, or is your Galicia mostly Slovakia?
What's up with Bohemia's shape?
You have 2 areas unnamed.
Why Wien instead of Austria?
Illyria works better than Dalmatia.
Half of your Mecklenburg was Pomeranian.
I should rename Croatia to Slavonia. That is the area of the earlier, larger Slavonia.
I'd make Transylvania smaller. The Romanian-Hungarian border of today doesn't reflect that of the historical region.
Is it just me, or is your Galicia mostly Slovakia?
What's up with Bohemia's shape?
You have 2 areas unnamed.
Why Wien instead of Austria?
Illyria works better than Dalmatia.
Half of your Mecklenburg was Pomeranian.
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What about the Battle of Höchstedt (Blenheim they english call it, methinks)
in 1704 as POD? Without it, french and bavarian forces have an open route to vienna, and have beaten the best generals of the empire: the "Türkenlouis", the margrave of Baden and Prince Eugen of Savoya and of course Marlborough, which greatly enhances the prestige of Maximilian Emanuel of Bavaria.
in 1704 as POD? Without it, french and bavarian forces have an open route to vienna, and have beaten the best generals of the empire: the "Türkenlouis", the margrave of Baden and Prince Eugen of Savoya and of course Marlborough, which greatly enhances the prestige of Maximilian Emanuel of Bavaria.