Malê Rising

Wow, I'd love to travel to TTL's NYC. Excellent update.

As for the last one..

Costa Rica only abolished the army in OTL after a civil war in the 1940s, and ITTL it's in a rough neighborhood - it had a border with Colombia during the Blanco-era wars, and there's always the possibility of the conflicts in El Salvador or Honduras going regional. I think they'd still see a need for an army, although it wouldn't be a political power like other armies in the region.

I'd expect, also, that they'd have political parties descended from the nineteenth-century liberals and conservatives, with both adopting some aspects of the neighboring countries' Catholic populism but neither going very far with it. A small Fraternalist party, and maybe a few Mexican-style socialists, sounds about right - land reform wouldn't be much of an issue and the urban working class would be small, so these groups would exist but not gain a large following.

That makes sense, although perhaps with a rapidly developing world, there would be more industry there. I'd expect Costa Rica to the the place where well-heeled dissidents from El Salvador (i.e., members of the elite whose politics aren't in line with neoslavery) go.

So the Salvadorans would be TTL's closest equivalent to the Nazis, at least in terms of the way they're viewed by history. I could see that - Imperial Britain and even Natal had some limits, Blanco would be considered a Mussolini figure rather than a Hitler, the Hungarian and Belgian governments are nasty but not outstanding in their evil, and Tsarist Russia and Qajar Persia would be looked on as the last gasp of the ancien regime rather than a modern totalitarian state. I suppose TTL's equivalent of Godwin's Law would involve Arturo Menéndez.

This is part of the difference between El Salvador and Ecuador, BTW. The Ecuadorian ruling class is made up of feudal aristocrats rather than neoliberals - they act brutally when the lower classes forget their place, but they have a sense of obligation toward "their" peasants and workers that the Salvadoran elite doesn't have.

Probably more like Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge. They are too small and have done too little to the world as a whole to be the Nazis, but they'll be an example of truly monstrous horror for most people (some 'free market' fanatics might find a way of justifying support for the Salvadorans). I actually think there will probably not really be a Hitler analogue at all. There is no state that combined an ideology that is pretty much universally despised with the power to kill millions, except maybe Imperial Party Britain, which could be saved by India's 'happy' ending and the fact that it was not openly genocidal, just very brutal.

And yeah exactly. Ecuador won't see its entire elite exterminated by messianic Christian-collectivist rebels, which is a distinct possibility for El Salvador.
 
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Myself, I want to see TTL's Houston. I expect it will be both similar and different in a lot of ways; it'll probably still sprawl, given that it's on a big, flat plain without a lot of geographical barriers around, but I expect that without cheap oil lasting as long as it did OTL, especially after the invention of the air conditioner (the key inflection point that will allow it to grow), it shouldn't be as bad in that regards. Unfortunately, our small but important Vietnamese minority probably won't exist, because most of the first-generation were refugees from the fall of South Vietnam--I don't regret that state not existing, of course, but it means that there won't be as much impetus for Vietnamese to migrate to the United States, nor any programs to redistribute them across the country. Instead, we'll probably be more orthodoxly Hispanic-white-African(-American--though there likely will be a substantial African-African minority, for the same reason there is IOTL--oil...)

One thing that's important--is the Houston Shipping Channel built? Frankly, I suspect it's likely to come up, because Galveston is inherently limited and vulnerable to hurricanes (it is located on a freaking barrier island, after all), but the specific circumstances that led to it IOTL might not happen...instead, the ports might migrate to areas like Texas City and Baytown that are on the mainland of the bay, but not so far inland, leaving the region to be more of a collection of medium-sized cities that collectively add up to a substantial urban area than the more centralized arrangement of today.
 
“Speaking of which, I wonder what kind of stories we’ll have to tell to get New Jersey to agree to the Hudson County merger”

Ever since I heard of Lloydminster, I've wondered why no states have emulated the Canadians IOTL.

PS There were inquiries about possibility of proportional representation in Congress in earlier discussions. Given the persistence of multi-party politics, has some sort of PR been implemented? (I'm an STV partisan myself). Also, any change in the Electoral College?
 
How about an Ottoman version of Sailor Moon, with the girls being rather cliche versions of the different ethnic groups in the Ottoman Empire? So you'd have a Turkish sailor Mars, a Jewish sailor Mercury, an Arab sailor Jupiter . . .
Or this Sailor Mercury
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Me, I'm curious about the "Sun Belt" in general, especially the politics of it. IMO, the boom of the Sun Belt was "the South's revenge", playing a huge part in the right-wing Reagan coalition; both the Christian Right base and the "law and order" wing of the party had deep roots in the South.

Here, however, you've got a number of factors that may prevent the South from becoming both so powerful and, especially, so right-wing. For one, TTL's America has a long, deep pacifist streak and is hardly a superpower with global or even regional hegemony, which means that a lot of OTL's military investment in the South has been butterflied away, while (based on the discussions in earlier pages) the space industry is likely to be smaller than OTL's NASA, affecting not only Florida but also Alabama. Also, without World War II and the Cold War lighting a fire under its ass, there's less pressure to drag the South into the 20th century (developmentally speaking) with the sort of massive infrastructure projects like OTL's Tennessee Valley Authority, which shrinks another key pillar in the Sun Belt's post-war boom. And with Cuba stable, democratic, and non-communist, Miami likely won't be replacing Havana as the center of Caribbean trade any time soon; even if some city is bound to develop there, it's likely to be a minor one.

On the other hand, there are the Afro-Atlantic networks that didn't exist IOTL. Even if their impact is focused on the East Coast -- the Carolinas, Georgia, and Florida -- it's a large and growing impact that will likely be responsible for the boom in those states. Air conditioning will also have an effect, so there's certainly going to be a housing boom in many Southern cities, while Florida is still likely to develop some kind of tourist industry on the strength of its climate. Finally, a more pacifist government may, in lieu of military bases and defense contractors, fund peaceful infrastructure investment to raise the standard of living... like the TVA and the universities.

Likewise, the politics of Confederate apologia and post-Civil Rights resentment are, ITTL, dead, and have been since the 1930s. African Americans are not an underclass any more, but wield significant political and economic power and can slap down any threats to such. Likewise, the Right ITTL doesn't have a monopoly on religious devotion -- left-wing religious ideas developed in the Old World, from Catholic Liberalism (likely the de facto political affiliation of most American Catholics in a nation that's still suspicious of them after the Papal Legion) to the narodniks (coming in through the large Eastern European communities) to Abacarism (known to be influential among even those African Americans who aren't Muslim), have likely trickled to the US. This makes it harder for the conservative evangelicals to build a nationwide Christian coalition, as there are still strong, non-fundamentalist strains of religious thought. Even in the South, the black trading interests on the Afro-Atlantic network will likely introduce a more Northern-style "Rockefeller Republican" conservatism to the South, one that's more focused on free trade and capitalism while being moderate-to-progressive on social issues (especially race).

The South will still develop economically. Texas and the Gulf Coast are likely to be the areas that most resemble OTL, as the oil isn't going anywhere, and in Texas neither is the cattle. Elsewhere, however, it will probably look little like OTL's South outside the weather and the food, and even that last one is likely to have some West African flair.
 
Although we know that what IOTL was the Great Migration was somewhat blunted by other destinations (South Carolina, more progressive areas of the south more generally, Tulsa, the Exodusters surviving, etc), with farm mechanization rural areas (both white and black) in the South are going to be emptying out. It's interesting to consider how much of this was absorbed by the southern cities, and how much of this results in settlement elsewhere.

I wouldn't be surprised if a fair amount of African-Americans emigrate to Liberia or Sierra Leone - not because life in the U.S. is bad, but because life in there is getting to be comparable, and it's not considered to be a true foreign culture any longer. It might hold a certain romanticism honestly - perhaps tales of the cross-Atlantic traders will be treated by African-Americans as Westerns are IOTL's America - a just-vanished era of high adventure. Which in turn pushes many onward in the mystery of discovering the true nature of the "Wild East."
 
For those who missed it, the update is on the previous page at post 5599.

Speaking of Ayn Rand, I wonder what semi fringe ideologies this TL will produce. It also seems like the consensus based, nested Council governmental system should produce some interesting dysfunctions in the states where it misfires. Will we see something like the OTL Culture Wars anywhere once society starts liberalizing? This world is so functional compared to OTL that the dysfunctions are more fascinating and unique.

The culture wars are already in progress in Latin America, and I expect we'll also see them in Europe and the United States as social change becomes more radical.

In terms of dysfunctional ideologies, Ma China was in many ways Belloism gone wrong, and similar things will happen in other parts of post-colonial Asia and Africa. And yes, nested councils can - and will - produce some less-than-optimum results.

The pope's last speech to Brazil reminded me of the throwaway "and unbelievers" line in Obama's inaugural speech :D

It's a bit more than a throwaway - with this pope, it's the beginning of a post-Vatican II attitude toward other faiths, although this will be very controversial through his papacy and afterward.

That makes sense, although perhaps with a rapidly developing world, there would be more industry there. I'd expect Costa Rica to the the place where well-heeled dissidents from El Salvador (i.e., members of the elite whose politics aren't in line with neoslavery) go.

I wonder if there's a government in exile there. That would potentially put Costa Rica in a position to be a diplomatic player, although I doubt it would be as much of one as IOTL (which has more to do with the stature of Figueres and Arias than any inherent Costa Rican power).

I actually think there will probably not really be a Hitler analogue at all. There is no state that combined an ideology that is pretty much universally despised with the power to kill millions, except maybe Imperial Party Britain, which could be saved by India's 'happy' ending and the fact that it was not openly genocidal, just very brutal.

That makes sense. The Imperials might be thought of as a modern version of Tsarist Russia - pretty much universally regarded as bad, but not as evil incarnate. Tsarist Russia itself will probably have a worse reputation than OTL, given that ITTL they didn't have the luck to be replaced by someone worse.

And yeah, the Khmer Rouge regime seems closest to how future generations will think of the Salvadoran government.

[Are the Dodgers still in Brooklyn] And did Jackie Robinson (if he was born) play for them after UCLA?

There's a team in Brooklyn, but in TTL they're the Canarsie Cannonballs. Jackie Robinson was never born, but the desegregation of the major leagues has been mentioned here.

Myself, I want to see TTL's Houston. I expect it will be both similar and different in a lot of ways; it'll probably still sprawl, given that it's on a big, flat plain without a lot of geographical barriers around, but I expect that without cheap oil lasting as long as it did OTL, especially after the invention of the air conditioner (the key inflection point that will allow it to grow), it shouldn't be as bad in that regards. Unfortunately, our small but important Vietnamese minority probably won't exist, because most of the first-generation were refugees from the fall of South Vietnam--I don't regret that state not existing, of course, but it means that there won't be as much impetus for Vietnamese to migrate to the United States, nor any programs to redistribute them across the country. Instead, we'll probably be more orthodoxly Hispanic-white-African(-American--though there likely will be a substantial African-African minority, for the same reason there is IOTL--oil...)

The Vietnamese won't be there - maybe there'll be some spillover from the Asian populations on the West Coast, but not a great amount. You'll get Jamaicans instead, who will become TTL's iconic shrimpers as well as oil workers. The West Africans will also show up, somewhat earlier than OTL given the absence of a quota system.

I do think the ship channel will be built - the oil industry will want centralized terminals, and they won't want them to be in Galveston. Houston will become at least as big a city as OTL. And an update there - well, I think that can be arranged.

Ever since I heard of Lloydminster, I've wondered why no states have emulated the Canadians IOTL.

PS There were inquiries about possibility of proportional representation in Congress in earlier discussions. Given the persistence of multi-party politics, has some sort of PR been implemented? (I'm an STV partisan myself). Also, any change in the Electoral College?

There have been a few experiments with local entities that cross US state lines, but these have been public authorities (e.g., the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey) rather than municipal or metropolitan governments. I'm not sure why this isn't more common, although I suspect that jurisdictional issues play a part - for instance, there would have to be special legislation giving city police officers jurisdiction in both states, and city officials might have to reconcile two ethics codes. New York City ITTL is aggressive about annexing its metropolitan area, but the inner-ring suburbs on the Jersey side are tricky.

The electoral college still exists - there's always been someone with an interest in keeping it and enough leverage to ensure its survival. Federal elections are still FPTP, although there's been movement toward AV or preference voting at the state and city level.

Me, I'm curious about the "Sun Belt" in general, especially the politics of it.

You're pretty close to the mark, although with the Farmer-Labor Party's emphasis on rural development, I expect there would be TVA-type projects starting early in the twentieth century, and Miami would still rival Havana simply because it provides a gateway from the Caribbean to American markets. I expect there will still be a Southern boom after air conditioning comes in, with businesses and individuals looking for better weather. On the other hand, as you say, the South will be less military and more African, and might have more and earlier Research Triangle-type complexes.

Religious politics might be less right-wing even among evangelicals, BTW. The current identification of American evangelical Christianity with the hard right is only about a generation old, and to some extent it followed the changing political preferences of Southern whites rather than driving the changes. TTL, I suspect, will have quite a few more Jimmy Carters.

I wouldn't be surprised if a fair amount of African-Americans emigrate to Liberia or Sierra Leone - not because life in the U.S. is bad, but because life in there is getting to be comparable, and it's not considered to be a true foreign culture any longer. It might hold a certain romanticism honestly - perhaps tales of the cross-Atlantic traders will be treated by African-Americans as Westerns are IOTL's America - a just-vanished era of high adventure. Which in turn pushes many onward in the mystery of discovering the true nature of the "Wild East."

Well, I've mentioned that nineteenth-century dime novels did romanticize the Afro-Atlantic traders, and there were probably some twentieth-century stories about their swashbuckling adventures during the Great War. With that said, I think most of the movement to and from Africa will involve lowland South Carolina and Georgia, and to a lesser extent North Carolina, where the regional cultures are closest. For African-Americans in Alabama or Mississippi, much less the Upper South, the Gullah/Krio culture would still seem a bit strange - not truly foreign, given that some elements of it have spread throughout African-American culture, but also not the way they live.

I guess it depends on what you consider "a fair amount" - I could easily see tens of thousands of African-Americans making the trip, but probably not hundreds of thousands, and certainly not millions. Most of the people who leave the countryside due to mechanized agriculture will end up in the Southern cities, or to a lesser extent those of the North and West.

You've given your apartment a cameo? Haha!

Well, that did make it easier to visualize the scene. (And just to make it even more meta, one of the people who lives there is the grandson of someone we met during the Great War.)

The next narrative in the series will take place in Congo in 1957: a nation in transition, and trouble on both sides of the river.
 
It was great to see the grandson of the couple that got married in Sarajevo during the Great War Jonathan! The narrative's foreshadowing of American Indian representation in the Consistory, backed by the Mapuche and indigenous majority states like Peru and Bolivia could have some interesting consequences for the predominantly Westphalian United States. Could this lead to a "better" 20th and 21st Century development for reservations and American Indians in the US as a whole?
 
I do think the ship channel will be built - the oil industry will want centralized terminals, and they won't want them to be in Galveston. Houston will become at least as big a city as OTL. And an update there - well, I think that can be arranged.

Well, it's true that Galveston is limited due to its location on the barrier island and the resulting space limitations. I'm just not sure that they won't build in one of the other circum-Galveston Bay cities, like Texas City or Baytown, instead of Houston proper; those locations are on the mainland too, after all, and most of them did, IOTL, see significant port and oil development. On the other hand, Houston might be a railway junction like IOTL, which would give it a leg up...
 
Oh I think it is nice that your apartment has a role. It has been too long that we as a people have neglected the fundamental humanity of a home.
 
It was great to see the grandson of the couple that got married in Sarajevo during the Great War Jonathan! The narrative's foreshadowing of American Indian representation in the Consistory, backed by the Mapuche and indigenous majority states like Peru and Bolivia could have some interesting consequences for the predominantly Westphalian United States. Could this lead to a "better" 20th and 21st Century development for reservations and American Indians in the US as a whole?

Speaking of majority Indio states, what about Paraguay? OTL, El Supremo was instrumental in making sure that the Criollos quickly assimilated into the Guarani majority, instead of the Guarani slowly, excruciatingly, and incompletely assimilating into Criollo culture, like they did in the neighboring states. Did this still happen ITTL?
 
I had almost forgotten about those two from Sarajevo, and then their grandson suddenly turns up in New York! I would say it's something that could only happen in this timeline, that the grandson of a Christian man and Muslim woman who got married in the middle of a battle in 19th Century Sarajevo, turns up in the 50's married to a Native American in New York and involved in a Native activist movement, but whatever timeline you look at, New York will always attract some really strange people.
 
The narrative's foreshadowing of American Indian representation in the Consistory, backed by the Mapuche and indigenous majority states like Peru and Bolivia could have some interesting consequences for the predominantly Westphalian United States. Could this lead to a "better" 20th and 21st Century development for reservations and American Indians in the US as a whole?

It will, for some of them. Not all of them will organize in the same way, and internal conflict as well as disputes with the federal government will get in the way of progress. As in OTL, there will be a fairly wide distribution along the success scale in the present day, although both the floor and ceiling will be higher.

Well, it's true that Galveston is limited due to its location on the barrier island and the resulting space limitations. I'm just not sure that they won't build in one of the other circum-Galveston Bay cities, like Texas City or Baytown, instead of Houston proper; those locations are on the mainland too, after all, and most of them did, IOTL, see significant port and oil development. On the other hand, Houston might be a railway junction like IOTL, which would give it a leg up...

Hmmm. I think Houston would have an advantage in becoming a rail hub, because it could be part of a corridor along the I-10 route without making the trains go around the bay. So my guess is that Houston would grow as a rail junction and have an inside track on port development. On the other hand, depending on industry growth patterns, some of the other cities on the west shore of the bay might get a bit more development, putting Houston in a San Francisco-like position as the anchor for a Galveston Bay Area. Yes, I know it's heresy to compare Texas to California... but in TTL it might not be.

Oh I think it is nice that your apartment has a role. It has been too long that we as a people have neglected the fundamental humanity of a home.

One thing I forgot to mention: the guests at the party aren't hippie or beatnik types. They're respectable professionals in their late twenties and thirties. Don't let the kif cigarettes fool you: marijuana isn't countercultural ITTL. On the other hand, it is still the 1950s, so hard liquor rather than wine or beer remains the drink of choice.

Speaking of majority Indio states, what about Paraguay? OTL, El Supremo was instrumental in making sure that the Criollos quickly assimilated into the Guarani majority, instead of the Guarani slowly, excruciatingly, and incompletely assimilating into Criollo culture, like they did in the neighboring states. Did this still happen ITTL?

It did - Francia took power well before the POD, so his policies and their effects would be the same. The industrial development of his era still exists ITTL, and as in OTL, the Guarani language has co-official status and is widely spoken by Criollos.

Any chance of an Australasian update in the next cycle? I'd love to see something on the Maori or the Aboriginal Australians.

We'll definitely see them - one of the non-core areas I'm planning to visit during the 1955-70 cycle is the Pacific, which will include Australasia.

BTW, the Maori and the Australian Aborigines are in different positions with respect to Consistory membership, because the Maori were incorporated into the British Empire through a treaty while the Aborigines weren't. The pre-federation governments of the Australian colonies never recognized Aboriginal tribes as sovereign nations the way the Maori and Native Americans were recognized, and never set up a reservation system. It took the Mabo decision IOTL to put the Aborigines in a similar situation to Native Americans or Canadian First Nations. ITTL, that's starting to change, especially in the Torres Strait islands, but it's only starting, and the fact that a treaty would give international standing to the Aboriginal tribes is actually one of the obstacles to progress.

I had almost forgotten about those two from Sarajevo, and then their grandson suddenly turns up in New York! I would say it's something that could only happen in this timeline, that the grandson of a Christian man and Muslim woman who got married in the middle of a battle in 19th Century Sarajevo, turns up in the 50's married to a Native American in New York and involved in a Native activist movement, but whatever timeline you look at, New York will always attract some really strange people.

For the record, Nick's wife Salma (Sally to her Manhattan friends) is an Orthodox Christian from Syria; it's her friend Marian who is a Native American activist and who invited the two Navajo delegates to the party. But there's as much convergence between activist movements ITTL as IOTL - in fact, there's more - so Nick and Salma do have connections to Native American rights groups as well as their own political clubs. And yes, New York is one of the places where the world comes together and creates cultural fusions that would never be found in the wild.
 
Commenting on the last two...I was hoping the Church would remain stationed in Brazil, since that was just awesome sauce, but at least it took away some progressive lessons. It's influence has been also largely positive throughout Latin America too. Though in other ways it was a double edged sword for women's rights, and freedom of religion and culture. I wonder how the Mapuche are doing through all this, which goes into my commentary on the next update.

NYC, so similar in defining cosmopolitanism, but also so different because of TTL's butterflies. I like the mention of fashion differences. So does this mean South Asian fashion has come to really influence dress? What are some other influences? Has the German hippie movement crossed over at all to other countries?

Now onto Native politics. I get the impression the American Indian Movement of TTL is a much less militant organization compared to OTL's AIM. The mention of peyote as a recreational drug is odd. Don't get me wrong, it's abused, but that would again be odd to see it used as such amongst Native activists (unless their movement is less spiritual in nature compared to AIM and the over all Native activist organizations). As for when the tribes push for more of their treaty rights and sovereignty, I can see similar negative developments - from tribes themselves fighting legal battles over disputed lands, cronyism in tribal governments (though I imagine most of the tribal chiefs that ruled reservations like outright dictators, such as in Red Lake and Pine Ridge, were ousted during the 20s and 30s), dis-enrolling tribal members that are political opponents or to simply narrow the pie of cashing in on natural resources and casino profits, etc. etc. In a lot of ways things depend on how much of the same abuses, such as allotment and termination, occurred in TTL vs. ours. On a positive side though, given the earlier Civil Rights and ending of boarding schools, coupled with a more diverse and tolerant US society, many of the languages, spiritual practices, and overall culture will be better preserved. Given my own family, my mom's generation was the first to not experience getting shipped off to boarding/residential schools. In TTL, it would have been as far back as my great grandparents possibly.
 
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We'll definitely see them - one of the non-core areas I'm planning to visit during the 1955-70 cycle is the Pacific, which will include Australasia.

BTW, the Maori and the Australian Aborigines are in different positions with respect to Consistory membership, because the Maori were incorporated into the British Empire through a treaty while the Aborigines weren't. The pre-federation governments of the Australian colonies never recognized Aboriginal tribes as sovereign nations the way the Maori and Native Americans were recognized, and never set up a reservation system. It took the Mabo decision IOTL to put the Aborigines in a similar situation to Native Americans or Canadian First Nations. ITTL, that's starting to change, especially in the Torres Strait islands, but it's only starting, and the fact that a treaty would give international standing to the Aboriginal tribes is actually one of the obstacles to progress.

Yes, one of the things I'd be interested in is how the differing treaty positions would have affected land rights. As the various iwi claimed settlements under the Waitangi treaty, I imagine that it would have sparked admiring- and envious- glances from native leaders across the Tasman.
 
Commenting on the last two...I was hoping the Church would remain stationed in Brazil, since that was just awesome sauce, but at least it took away some progressive lessons. It's influence has been also largely positive throughout Latin America too. Though in other ways it was a double edged sword for women's rights, and freedom of religion and culture.

Rome for the Church is like Jerusalem for Jews or Mecca for Muslims - there's too much history, ritual and cultural power tied up there to accept substitutes. Once political conditions permitted a return to Rome, it was inevitable that they would do so. The Rio years have been very formative, though, and the Church will keep the Latin American characteristics that it took on.

And yes, Catholic populism in Latin America has been a two-edged sword - very good for economic justice and breakdown of the class system, but often reactionary on cultural matters.

I wonder how the Mapuche are doing through all this, which goes into my commentary on the next update.

For the moment, now that their independence has been recognized, they're building a nation in their mountains and not concerning themselves much with the rest of the world - sort of an Andorra of the Andes. That will change.

NYC, so similar in defining cosmopolitanism, but also so different because of TTL's butterflies. I like the mention of fashion differences. So does this mean South Asian fashion has come to really influence dress? What are some other influences? Has the German hippie movement crossed over at all to other countries?

There's been a trend for "world fashion" in the wake of the Washington Conference, of which the South Asian influence is part. There's some influence from West Africa too, via Paris and Charleston, as well as a revival of interest in the folk costumes of northern and eastern Europe. The styles of the mid-late 50s are eclectic, and only parts of them will last.

Now onto Native politics. I get the impression the American Indian Movement of TTL is a much less militant organization compared to OTL's AIM.

TTL's AIM grew out of the politics of its time. On the one hand, militancy is frowned on in the 40s and 50s due to post-civil-rights-era exhaustion - as Joe said, the standard response to militant talk is "last time people got riled up, we had sixty thousand dead." And on the other hand, conditions on the reservations did improve during the 20s and 30s and reduced some of the pressure for militant action. This world's AIM might best be compared to the NAACP.

The mention of peyote as a recreational drug is odd. Don't get me wrong, it's abused, but that would again be odd to see it used as such amongst Native activists (unless their movement is less spiritual in nature compared to AIM and the over all Native activist organizations).

Hmmm, yeah. I was imagining Frank as one of the "young turks" of the movement, with a casual attitude toward what his elders held sacred. But now that you mention it, that reads a bit wrong - as you say, the AIM would have a large spiritual component, and while Frank might laugh at some of what the older people venerate, he probably wouldn't do that toward something with explicit ritual significance.

Let's assume that when he said "I should have brought some peyote," he was making a joke, or maybe a sardonic comment on New Yorkers' use of marijuana as part of social ritual.

As for when the tribes push for more of their treaty rights and sovereignty, I can see similar negative developments - from tribes themselves fighting legal battles over disputed lands, cronyism in tribal governments (though I imagine most of the tribal chiefs that ruled reservations like outright dictators, such as in Red Lake and Pine Ridge, were ousted during the 20s and 30s), dis-enrolling tribal members that are political opponents or to simply narrow the pie of cashing in on natural resources and casino profits, etc. etc. In a lot of ways things depend on how much of the same abuses, such as allotment and termination, occurred in TTL vs. ours. On a positive side though, given the earlier Civil Rights and ending of boarding schools, coupled with a more diverse and tolerant US society, many of the languages, spiritual practices, and overall culture will be better preserved. Given my own family, my mom's generation was the first to not experience getting shipped off to boarding/residential schools. In TTL, it would have been as far back as my great grandparents possibly.

Very likely. The reservations did take part in the civil rights battles of the 20s and 30s, so their self-rule is a lot more real, and there's much less interference and forcible assimilation. Children have gone to school on the rez since then, and in the 50s there are colleges on the larger ones. Most of the dictatorial chiefs were overthrown, and the Sequoyah constitution has also been influential in establishing the forms of democracy, although there's still a lot of factionalism and small-town cronyism, and as you say, this will mean a lot of conflict down the road. Casino gambling might not be such a big thing ITTL, but resources certainly will, and so will industrial development.

I hope you'll continue to set me straight about these things.

Yes, one of the things I'd be interested in is how the differing treaty positions would have affected land rights. As the various iwi claimed settlements under the Waitangi treaty, I imagine that it would have sparked admiring- and envious- glances from native leaders across the Tasman.

It could do more than that, actually. I mentioned in the last Australasia update that the indigenous-rights groups started trying to build a nationwide movement in the late 1930s. The fact that some of them are in a better position to get what they want is almost guaranteed to make unity harder - each group will have different priorities and strategies, and for the Maori or the Kanaks, the tendency to use the remedies available to them might overwhelm the tendency toward collective action with others who have cultures very different from theirs. In the 1955-70 cycle, we'll see how some of that plays out.

Anyway, I'd be grateful for one more comment so that the next update isn't orphaned.
 
Me, I'm curious about the "Sun Belt" in general, especially the politics of it. IMO, the boom of the Sun Belt was "the South's revenge", playing a huge part in the right-wing Reagan coalition; both the Christian Right base and the "law and order" wing of the party had deep roots in the South.
I'd suggest rather that the South rose in power due to other factors, factors that exist ITTL as well--though certainly the old Dixiecrat Solid South was very important OTL; it meant that whatever largesse the Federal government had to spread around, Southern bailiwicks got a lot of it--out of proportion to both their population and their net contribution to GNP hence to tax revenues. That factor certainly won't carry over because of the many-party situation in the early 20th century--had the South, minus of course SC, been "solid" as per OTL, then not only would Dixiecratic Southerners have dominated the Democratic party, but the Democrats would have wound up the largest single party. I rarely question the plausibility of Jonathan's vision, and the reported ATL "fact" that this did not happen went down smoothly enough, but now that I think of it we ought to be clear on why it did not happen--I believe Jonathan did address the salient points since they do demand an explanation. IIRC it boiled down to the competitiveness of many parties applying in the South as well--indeed, while it is relatively easy for the Democrats to monopolize office in a timeline like OTL where there is only one alternative and that alternative is associated with enmity to the region, supposing just one other party with no such baggage has national significance, it will attract all the voters disgruntled for any reason with the Democratic hegemony. So it makes perfect sense the South is not a Democratic monopoly, and by breaking the continuity of office-holding (much of Southern Democratic power related to their seniority, being re-elected for decades in a non-competitive seat; I'm not sure seniority doesn't accumulate from discontinuous terms, but even if it does that dimension is weakened if every now and then a Congressman is turned out and has to fight to get elected again a couple years later) both the Southerners and the Democratic party as a whole are less powerful, now strictly in proportion to the votes they get rather than these esoteric multipliers.

The Democrats did become ITTL pretty much a Southern regional party, and the strongest single one there--but had they not done a later merger with the conservative wing of the Republicans to regain national standing they probably would have withered and died.

But even without Dixiecrat patronage, the South would still for instance attract a fair share of what military spending there is, particularly Naval. On the Atlantic coast, the shoreline to be defended is pretty evenly divided above and below the Mason-Dixon line--to be sure, SC doesn't really count as Dixie, while a rational distribution of force would be line with New England's traditional Naval orientation, since NE is the nearest region of the USA to Europe, which is where most of the plausible potential threats are.

Still, I'd expect some small approach to balancing a north-eastern concentration of naval ports and squadrons at the south tip of Florida too, since it commands the strait with Cuba and the most direct approach to the Gulf Coast.

Then, tipping the balance, or anyway offsetting the weight of the distinctly non-Dixie Pacific coast, the Gulf Coast also needs to be defended and it is all Southern. On one hand the likely threat level is lower since the immediate neighbors are friendlier and assuming their help or at least neutrality, the waters of the Gulf are easier to close at chokepoints. But for the very reason they are semi-sheltered coasts, the Gulf shores are good places to put infrastructural bases.

Therefore, the possibility that any or all of Pensacola, Mobile, Biloxi, New Orleans or other Louisiana coast towns, or various Texan ports from Beaumont to Corpus Christi are major naval bases should not be dismissed! If they are all or mostly serving that function I guess each must be smaller, if any are as heavily developed as OTL there must be fewer others, since the USN I think (not to everyone here's agreement) must be a lot smaller overall than OTL--half its size or less.

Similarly for air defense--I'd expect a concentration in Maine, again closest to potential attackers from Europe, and the Pacific Northwest (I believe the USA has Alaska since Lincoln would have retained Seward and the Russians would have been largely unbutterflied in the 1860s, but maybe not?) against threats from Russia or China. But the coasts have to be covered against carrier assaults or very long range aircraft that might come from any direction conceivably. Again the Gulf coast is somewhat sheltered but again for that very reason the deep South is a good place to put reserve and infrastructural bases.

OK, so much for strategic considerations--the Sunbelt developed OTL in part because of the inherent attractions of the region, including the very fact of relative backwardness. A region with a poorer, less developed workforce has its attractions for capitalists trying to get away from strong labor organization in the developed regions after all--a workforce that can be paid less and expected to make less trouble for its bosses in general can offset quite a bit of impaired efficiency in production. The climatic factor is a bit of a wash--heating in winter is much reduced but there are hurricanes to worry about, or earthquakes in California, and the cost of air conditioning in summer is a consideration too, whereas in the desert southwest the lack of water is a cost as well. But certainly air conditioning negates a lot of the drawback of trying to locate in the southern tier of the nation, at least if it is available to management.:rolleyes:

So the South rose not solely because of Dixiecrat power but for deeper reasons; had those reasons not been in place the region would have limited power to influence the larger nation no matter how solid or fanatical it was. The nature of Dixiecrat hegemony OTL did tend to foster the southward movement and suited the motives of many investors as well to be sure!
Here, however, you've got a number of factors that may prevent the South from becoming both so powerful and, especially, so right-wing. For one, TTL's America has a long, deep pacifist streak and is hardly a superpower with global or even regional hegemony, which means that a lot of OTL's military investment in the South has been butterflied away, while (based on the discussions in earlier pages) the space industry is likely to be smaller than OTL's NASA, affecting not only Florida but also Alabama. Also, without World War II and the Cold War lighting a fire under its ass, there's less pressure to drag the South into the 20th century (developmentally speaking) with the sort of massive infrastructure projects like OTL's Tennessee Valley Authority, which shrinks another key pillar in the Sun Belt's post-war boom. And with Cuba stable, democratic, and non-communist, Miami likely won't be replacing Havana as the center of Caribbean trade any time soon; even if some city is bound to develop there, it's likely to be a minor one.
I agree with most of this, except that while there has not apparently been a New Deal 1930s concentrating a huge burst of infrastructural development, there has, as Jonathan responded, been a lot of piecemeal local development spread out over the whole half-century--the multi-party system includes various kinds of progressive movements and the conservatives have to compete with that.

Anyway, all of that speaks more against its being a rightist bastion than against the region developing at all; much of it does suggest a slower pace of development, but then...
On the other hand, there are the Afro-Atlantic networks that didn't exist IOTL. Even if their impact is focused on the East Coast -- the Carolinas, Georgia, and Florida -- it's a large and growing impact that will likely be responsible for the boom in those states. Air conditioning will also have an effect, so there's certainly going to be a housing boom in many Southern cities, while Florida is still likely to develop some kind of tourist industry on the strength of its climate. Finally, a more pacifist government may, in lieu of military bases and defense contractors, fund peaceful infrastructure investment to raise the standard of living... like the TVA and the universities.

Likewise, the politics of Confederate apologia and post-Civil Rights resentment are, ITTL, dead, and have been since the 1930s.
Oh, I doubt they are totally dead, but they are a lot less hegemonic, we have good reason to believe. Even Confederate nostalgia is likely to be less coherent, more particularlist and somewhat less fictional.
African Americans are not an underclass any more, but wield significant political and economic power and can slap down any threats to such. Likewise, the Right ITTL doesn't have a monopoly on religious devotion -- left-wing religious ideas developed in the Old World, from Catholic Liberalism (likely the de facto political affiliation of most American Catholics in a nation that's still suspicious of them after the Papal Legion) to the narodniks (coming in through the large Eastern European communities) to Abacarism (known to be influential among even those African Americans who aren't Muslim), have likely trickled to the US. This makes it harder for the conservative evangelicals to build a nationwide Christian coalition, as there are still strong, non-fundamentalist strains of religious thought. Even in the South, the black trading interests on the Afro-Atlantic network will likely introduce a more Northern-style "Rockefeller Republican" conservatism to the South, one that's more focused on free trade and capitalism while being moderate-to-progressive on social issues (especially race).

The South will still develop economically. Texas and the Gulf Coast are likely to be the areas that most resemble OTL, as the oil isn't going anywhere, and in Texas neither is the cattle. Elsewhere, however, it will probably look little like OTL's South outside the weather and the food, and even that last one is likely to have some West African flair.

I agree with most of that too. What I expect is that the development of the South after the Civil War, and especially after the multi-party explosion of the Great War era and in reaction to the Lodge Administration's unpopular Mexican-Central American war, was very patchy and regional. In specific areas, a more progressive coalition would come to power, and between self-development and attracting northern (and foreign) capital (and patronage, for military bases or nationally fostered projects) and immigrants, these regions surged ahead. Sometimes I imagine a socio-political two-step--the progressives take over, make their region attractive, and then the influx of capital might tip the political balance rightward again.:mad: But actually in OTL I see the trend working more the other way--some region develops as a "haven" for capital from pesky "interference" by working-class politics--only to foster a working class, which then asserts itself!:p So it isn't clear to me whether regional leaders in other regions would be inspired to emulate the progressive areas or abhor them. I'd expect some deep pockets of reactionary backwardness too--although if any of these are too extreme, the nation's skeptical and even hostile scrutiny would be turned on them; there are after all laws as well as customs protecting civil rights.

...You're pretty close to the mark, although with the Farmer-Labor Party's emphasis on rural development, I expect there would be TVA-type projects starting early in the twentieth century, and Miami would still rival Havana simply because it provides a gateway from the Caribbean to American markets. I expect there will still be a Southern boom after air conditioning comes in, with businesses and individuals looking for better weather. On the other hand, as you say, the South will be less military and more African, and might have more and earlier Research Triangle-type complexes.

Religious politics might be less right-wing even among evangelicals, BTW. The current identification of American evangelical Christianity with the hard right is only about a generation old, and to some extent it followed the changing political preferences of Southern whites rather than driving the changes. TTL, I suspect, will have quite a few more Jimmy Carters.

What I think happened OTL regarding the formation of the modern "evangelical"-corporate Right is:

A hegemonic and almost purely secular dominant society formed in the USA after the Civil War, especially in the 20th century, based on acquiescence to corporate oligopoly tempered by the Progressive spirit--that is, the ruling classes of the USA included a lot of intelligent supporters who recognized that the discontents of the ruled masses had to be addressed, and in a flattering way, to maintain the mythos of the USA as a nation of for and by the people, while these unwashed ignorant naive people actually had little say. They wouldn't mind that though if their grievances were addressed with some generous concern. The motto of the era might be summarized in John Kennedy's slogan "a rising tide lifts all boats!" If the people would get with the corporate-imperialist program, the USA would by its sheer magnitude rise to the hegemonic world power and there would be plenty of largesse to keep them happy.

In this context, the American people remained rather God-struck in the sense that even the highest classes were expected to go to "the church of their choice" on Sunday and profess a generic Christian belief (or grudgingly, perhaps a Jewish one:rolleyes:) but on the other hand it did not do, in the higher circles, to make too much of it either--this was an age of science, of progress, of routine practices that might not bear too much ethical scrutiny practiced against the weak. Godly high-mindedness was good for summoning the will for crusading wars and repelling the Godless insinuations of Communists and other degenerates. But sectarianism would get in the way of the program. So religion remained, but on the back burner.

Not everyone could get with the global corporate program of course (as Michael Harrington responded to JFK in The Other America, rising tides do no good and much harm to boats with holes in them); such people tended to radicalism of some kind or other, most of them to a more conservative world view wherein religion was a serious business indeed. They stayed on the fringes of power, in their own "backward" world while the great American corporate steamroller was assembled and set into operation. In the generation of global hegemony after WWII, when the threat of Communism was the organizing cry, some of these fringe thinkers--notably the most reactionary of the lot (not just in Christendom but in Islam as well, the Muslim Brotherhood having got some support from US circles in the 1950s--but that's overseas of course) began to get aid and comfort from the right wing of the corporate hegemony.

This hegemony--did not crash, in the sense of being wrecked and toppled from power, but did run into a reef in the later 60s and 70s, when the post-WWII boom era ended in stagflation, and adrift and rudderless, the Keynesian steersmen had no formula for distributing failure the way they knew how to distribute the loot of success.

Meanwhile, as a belated fruit of the prior spreading and modest sharing of wealth, the OTL Civil Rights era finally started to yield solid results for African-Americans; Jim Crow structures were dismantled and, just as the mighty ship of US corporate hegemony was approaching shipwreck, its elite navigators not being the hotshot pilots of the reefs of global economy they believed themselves to be, its leaders declared racism at an end.

Much of the growth of the organized evangelical right in the USA had to do with resistance to Civil Rights after all. When the order was given to integrate public schools with "all deliberate speed," after first resisting integration for a decade in the South, the next response was to withdraw white children from the public system and create a parallel system of private "Christian academies" which black families could hardly afford and anyway admission to them was at private discretion. This was a key first step in the creation of a whole parallel charity-based infrastructure of social services, under the direction of right-wing ideolouges. With the old quasi-Christian, quasi-secularist order in disarray in the 70s, the rise of the modern Christian Right as we know it today was well underway, aided by the right wing of the old corporate hegemony.
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Thus, I don't see any grounds for something a lot like that happening in the USA of TTL. The American corporate structure never managed to set the nation on the imperialist course of OTL (except abortively under Lodge). The working-class public therefore could not be fully brought under control of top-down Progressivism (in the OTL sense) and remained an active, self-directed political force, creating a multi-party system in which people could gravitate toward whatever political creed made the most sense to them. Religion as such was never ghettoized as per OTL The United States could not flatter itself ruler of the world so shocks cascading from decisions made by independent actors overseas would routinely wash over the nation, checking the general national hubris. The timeline's earlier Civil Rights crisis would appear far different, a many-sided struggle and not the arrogant largesse of a ruling elite leading to the final outcome; doubtless quite a few whites withdrew their children from newly integrated public schools, but perhaps others who had taken theirs out long before because the segregated schools were unGodly in their unChristian message of human division now would put theirs back in, since they were reformed.

The American corporate system as a whole then is more what it is supposed to be in OTL pro-corporate ideology--businessmen trying to make a profit by filling public needs that they manifestly do not control or manipulate--because they are prevented from doing so by the jealous diligence of politics and press more multilateral and skeptical than OTL. The public is politically awake and active on its own diverse and contradictory behalf.

And so I don't expect what reactionary politics there will be to be as strongly based on Southern people and views--the Southern reactionaries may be many and strong but offset by other Southerners who are not reactionary, but will find perhaps a few more openly reactionary Northerners to ally with.
 
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