Long Live Sacred Germany: The Oster Conspiracy | Alternate Timeline

[1962strat]

Thanks for the insight.

The German situation was indeed quite laughable in 1938, and frankly, even in 1939. Germany rolled a LOT of sixes to get as far as they did OTL.

I do agree with RedSword12 regarding the Czechoslovak and Soviet agreements, I know the USSR tried very hard to get itself or the Czechoslovaks involved in the Munich Conference and tried very hard to get a defensive bloc with France and the UK against Germany. The biggest problem remains passage through to Czechoslovakia, Poland is unfriendly to the USSR obviously but there is also the issue of Zalozie with Czechoslovakia.

Something of a "Third Balkan War" comes to mind...

Even if Romania agreed, there's no infrastructure for such a venture. There's not a cross-Carpathian railway from Romania to Czechoslovakia, so sustaining a Soviet force in the area is impossible.

Theoretically it's possible to send pilots and planes, but I question if Stalin would do it for the sake of it, especially since France and Britain would reap the rewards of a victory.

 

[Sphinx]

 

[Sphinx]

Even if Romania agreed, there's no infrastructure for such a venture. There's not a cross-Carpathian railway from Romania to Czechoslovakia, so sustaining a Soviet force in the area is impossible.

Theoretically it's possible to send pilots and planes, but I question if Stalin would do it for the sake of it, especially since France and Britain would reap the rewards of a victory.

Yes, Romania is essentially off the table.

 

[1962strat]

Yes, Romania is essentially off the table.

Which basically only leaves an invasion of Poland as an option, which I don't think Stalin would go for. Not with his army in such conditions, not with the risk of getting an united West against him after the war.

 

[lukedalton]

I disagree.

People forget, it was not just Germany that spent 1933-1939 rearming. The time bought by appeasement was utterly critical for the British rearmament especially post-1938 and to a lesser extent French rearmament also, in fact buying time rather than necessarily aiming for completely avoiding war was one of the big reasons behind Munich.

Appeasement simply was not the reason for German success. The British and French needed that time just as much as Germany did, it's just that Germany of course always planned to go on an offensive crusade Eastward since 1933 and so used its time better. It also was incredibly lucky in a lot of instances, such as French refusing to push into Germany during Case Weiss, the Poles abandoning their own original plans of a fighting retreat to the Vistula, the Benelux somehow not seeing the writing on the wall even after Denmark and Norway were invaded, the fact Romania did not come to Poland's aid despite their alliance, etc.

What do you think would happen if the French and British as well as the Poles intervened immediately in 1933? Not anything good- civil war possibly in France, massive reluctance on the part of the British, and a slogging match in the East; maybe an eventual toppling of Hitler only to replace an already extremely bitter Germany with an utterly hateful and vengeful one. Kicking the can down the road even further.

Also, the Entente being seen as the aggressors on an 'innocent' victim would have massive ramifications down the line too.

Sorry but we had already a similar talking in a previous thread about Chamberlain, sure the Entente got some precious time for rearmament..but Germany got much much more like the Czech gold, mineral resources and general industry ( Skoda works that were vital in the production of the werchmatch vehicles).
Going from wiki Germany gained by the occupation of Czechoslovakia: 2,175 field cannons, 469 tanks, 500 anti-aircraft artillery pieces, 43,000 machine guns, 1,090,000 military rifles, 114,000 pistols, about a billion rounds of ammunition and three million anti-aircraft shells.

The one who will see the entente as the aggressor will have seen her as the 'bad guys' in any case so not much change,
The Poles abandoned their original plan due to the Soviet invasion that make that move useless and if anybody made a move in 1936 against Germany but more specifically the French and the British, Hitler will have go for the original plan as he gave the order to his men to retreat in such case because well even him know the situation of Germany, so the crisis will have been resolved very quickly and the French government will have been in a stronger position; the British and almost everyone politics towards Germany was that by giving her something while contain her in the west she will have returned to the cradle of the civilizated nation and not 'we need time to rearm' that happened after Monaco and frankly by then was too late.
Not considering that well now the blockade will work as there is no Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the URSS that lavishly gave to Germany all the materials needed to their war machine or the mines in Spain

 

[Sphinx]

Sorry but we had already a similar talking in a previous thread about Chamberlain, sure the Entente got some precious time for rearmament..but Germany got much much more like the Czech gold, mineral resources and general industry ( Skoda works that were vital in the production of the werchmatch vehicles).
Going from wiki Germany gained by the occupation of Czechoslovakia: 2,175 field cannons, 469 tanks, 500 anti-aircraft artillery pieces, 43,000 machine guns, 1,090,000 military rifles, 114,000 pistols, about a billion rounds of ammunition and three million anti-aircraft shells.

The one who will see the entente as the aggressor will have seen her as the 'bad guys' in any case so not much change,
The Poles abandoned their original plan due to the Soviet invasion that make that move useless and if anybody made a move in 1936 against Germany but more specifically the French and the British, Hitler will have go for the original plan as he gave the order to his men to retreat in such case because well even him know the situation of Germany, so the crisis will have been resolved very quickly and the French government will have been in a stronger position; the British and almost everyone politics towards Germany was that by giving her something while contain her in the west she will have returned to the cradle of the civilizated nation and not 'we need time to rearm' that happened after Monaco and frankly by then was too late.
Not considering that well now the blockade will work as there is no Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and the URSS that lavishly gave to Germany all the materials needed to their war machine or the mines in Spain

I don't think we can agree on this, although I will say you make some valid points and there is weight to both sides of the debate but either way even if an early intervention could have stopped Hitler with few consequences, some second Great War would have happened one way or the other eventually. Warfare is human nature, it's just that our destructive ingenuity has supersized what nature meant as simple tribal competition for resources.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

Would Poland join France & Czechoslovakia? The Poles took advantage of the Czech's travails and seized long-disputed territory of Tscheschen / Cieszyn. They might prefer the Germans to the Russians.

 

[Major Major]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this.

The Oster Conspiracy of 1938: The Unknown Story of the Military Plot to Kill Hitler and Avert World War II​

 

[Sphinx]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this.

The Oster Conspiracy of 1938: The Unknown Story of the Military Plot to Kill Hitler and Avert World War II​

I wish I had that book, would help my research. Looks good.


Also the next update will probably be in about a week, unfortunately I'm behind on some work and will need to prioritize that.

 

[Sphinx]

Part One | Chapter I

---

April 20th, 1938

“Herr Oster, it will be the perfect birthday present for den Führer.”

“You realise if the leak, or worse, its source is found...”

“I do, but do you realise what will happen if we fail in convincing Chamberlain to grow a spine?”

Hans Oster winced at the sudden spiteful interruption. He did not reply.

Leaking military documents to the office of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. High treason. But against Germany? Or against Hitler?

“They did nothing in ’33, nothing in ’36, nothing during the Anschluss. The British and French want to avoid a second Great War at all cost, without understanding Hitler’s Germany is trying its hardest to start one. Your work in the Abwehr means you must understand that overestimation of Germany’s capabilities is shrouding judgement in London. The Sudeten German Party is beginning to make moves. You know as well as I that a crisis over the Sudetenland might provide an opportunity- just one, golden opportunity- to shoot down the dancing dervish.”

Oster got up from his desk and paced the small room.

“We must grow our list of contacts in the Army and in the Air Force. We can begin to collect military documents, carefully, slowly, but we must leak them only if absolutely necessary and at the most opportune time. Understand, Groscurth?”

“Understood.”

Despite the conversation having seemingly ended, Helmuth Groscurth remained in the office. The two men looked at each other in silence.

“The sacred Germany we know will be restored. I swear it, Hans.”

A pause.

“I pray you are correct, Helmuth.”

A military salute, and a defiant Heil Deutschland in place of the more common greeting in Hitler’s Germany, and Hans Oster found himself alone once more.

Privately, he thought the unspoken second part of his parting chant.

Gott schütze Deutschland.


September 30th, 1938

The documents collected over the months following that encounter now sat on the desk of a Neville Chamberlain tired and lost in thought, having just returned to London from a Munich Conference where the fate of the world had taken a sharp turn without her inhabitants even realising.

Then again, perhaps ignorance is bliss.

 

[Flavius Iulius Maiorianus]

Part One | Chapter I

---

April 20th, 1938

“Herr Oster, it will be the perfect birthday present for der Führer.”

“You realise if the leak, or worse, its source is found...”

“I do, but do you realise what will happen if we fail in convincing Chamberlain to grow a spine?”

Hans Oster winced at the sudden spiteful interruption. He did not reply.

Leaking military documents to the office of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. High treason. But against Germany? Or against Hitler?

“They did nothing in ’33, nothing in ’36, nothing during the Anschluss. The British and French want to avoid a second Great War at all cost, without understanding Hitler’s Germany is trying its hardest to start one. Your work in the Abwehr means you must understand that overestimation of Germany’s capabilities is shrouding judgement in London. The Sudeten German Party is beginning to make moves. You know as well as I that a crisis over the Sudetenland might provide an opportunity- just one, golden opportunity- to shoot down the dancing dervish.”

Oster got up from his desk and paced the small room.

“We must grow our list of contacts in the Army and in the Air Force. We can begin to collect military documents, carefully, slowly, but we must leak them only if absolutely necessary and at the most opportune time. Understand, Groscurth?”

“Understood.”

Despite the conversation having seemingly ended, Helmuth Groscurth remained in the office. The two men looked at each other in silence.

“The sacred Germany we know will be restored. I swear it, Hans.”

A pause.

“I pray you are correct, Helmuth.”

A military salute, and a defiant Heil Deutschland in place of the more common greeting in Hitler’s Germany, and Hans Oster found himself alone once more.

Privately, he thought the unspoken second part of his parting chant.

Gott schütze Deutschland.


September 30th, 1938

The documents collected over the months following that encounter now sat on the desk of a Neville Chamberlain tired and lost in thought, having just returned to London from a Munich Conference where the fate of the world had taken a sharp turn without her inhabitants even realising.

Then again, perhaps ignorance is bliss.

Sweet start, nice job! If I may offer one slight correction, I believe it should be "for dem Führer" rather than "for der Führer." I'm not a native German speaker, so if anyone knows better please feel free to correct me, but I'm 75% sure the dative case would apply here.

 

[Sphinx]

Look I know it's a really short chapter, but I just wanted to address the actual POD of the timeline.

Helmuth Groscurth, who was responsible for German unconventional operations in the Sudetenland before the annexation, more actively uses his knowledge of the situation to essentially give earlier and clearer warnings to Hans Oster, a leading figure in the German resistance, about Hitler's designs. He successfully convinces him to collect military documents of the Reich's actual capability, "just in case". Oster does not leak these documents until the 11th hour when he finally decides to use British contacts with the Osterists to directly send them to Neville Chamberlain's office and staff.

This is just enough to convince Chamberlain to take a firmer stand in Munich, especially as Groscurth includes documents on German psyops and agitation operations in the Sudetenland, which takes the shine off the 'Hitler's argument is pretty well-justified'. Chamberlain's own government is not aware of the leaked documents, not for now yet anyway.

 

[Sphinx]

Sweet start, nice job! If I may offer one slight correction, I believe it should be "for dem Führer" rather than "for der Führer." I'm not a native German speaker, so if anyone knows better please feel free to correct me, but I'm 75% sure the dative case would apply here.

I'll take your word for it, my German extends to 4,000 XP on Duolingo.

Apologies for the mistake.

Edit: Should be fixed now!

 

[Flavius Iulius Maiorianus]

I'll take your word for it, my German extends to 4,000 XP on Duolingo.

Apologies for the mistake.

There's no need to apologize, we all make them. I'm only on my third year of high school German plus Duolingo, so I'm hardly an expert either. Keep up the good work!

 

[Sphinx]

There's no need to apologize, we all make them. I'm only on my third year of high school German plus Duolingo, so I'm hardly an expert either. Keep up the good work!

Thank you for the support!

 

[RedSword12]

Sweet start, nice job! If I may offer one slight correction, I believe it should be "for dem Führer" rather than "for der Führer." I'm not a native German speaker, so if anyone knows better please feel free to correct me, but I'm 75% sure the dative case would apply here.

I'm a native German speaker, and AFIAK you'd say, "für den Führer."

Although I don't think grammar is that important. That said, I think it's best to minimize use of German in the TL if you're not fluent, and just stick with English. There's a good case to be made that even phrases like Sieg Heil are best off rendered in English if the TL is English, because a lot of the German sprinkled in typically has a lot of problems and has quite the opposite effect of making things less authentic.

 

[Sphinx]

I'm a native German speaker, and AFIAK you'd say, "für den Führer."

Although I don't think grammar is that important. That said, I think it's best to minimize use of German in the TL if you're not fluent, and just stick with English. There's a good case to be made that even phrases like Sieg Heil are best off rendered in English if the TL is English, because a lot of the German sprinkled in typically has a lot of problems and has quite the opposite effect of making things less authentic.

Ah alright, I will edit that in.

That is a valid point and I understand where you're coming from, I will try to not use German again. Sorry for the failed attempt.

Except I do have some scenes planned for some of the Nazis when they meet their just demise, for those perhaps you could help me so mistakes are avoided?

Also this will not drastically alter the TL but seeing as to how you're German, you decide:

Does Hitler die when the Oster Conspiracy is launched?

EDIT: Forgot to thank you for the feedback.

 

[Hohensaufen]

Great start! I don't think any Oster TL's that exist have been completed so I'm very keen on seeing where you will be taking this PoD.

Except I do have some scenes planned for some of the Nazis when they meet their just demise, for those perhaps you could help me so mistakes are avoided?

Also this will not drastically alter the TL but seeing as to how you're German, you decide:

Does Hitler die when the Oster Conspiracy is launched?

EDIT: Forgot to thank you for the feedback.

While I'm not @RedSword12, I can tell you from the perspective of another German that you don't need to worry too much about the mistakes, in general I would always recommend the translations offered by deepl or chatgpt. If any mistakes remain I'm sure people will point them out and in my opinion they don't diminish the legibility nor the flow of your text.

Also my two cents on Hitler's demise, I would say it's best to just kill him and blame it on someone else.

 

[Sphinx]

Great start! I don't think any Oster TL's that exist have been completed so I'm very keen on seeing where you will be taking this PoD.


While I'm not @RedSword12, I can tell you from the perspective of another German that you don't need to worry too much about the mistakes, in general I would always recommend the translations offered by deepl or chatgpt. If any mistakes remain I'm sure people will point them out and in my opinion they don't diminish the legibility nor the flow of your text.

Also my two cents on Hitler's demise, I would say it's best to just kill him and blame it on someone else.

Thank you! Out of curiosity do you happen to have the link to some of the other Oster TLs? To be honest I was trying to be as original as possible, but I guess that's hardly possible.

I appreciate the feedback, I think it will still be best to minimize German but I will include some for certain atmospheric reasons.

Since you got the first response, he will die in the Reichstag. Before one final performance of course...

 

[Hohensaufen]

Since you got the first response, he will die in the Reichstag. Before one final performance of course...

Good riddance ...

Edit: I just thought about it a bit and it could be a nice bit of poetic justice if there were a fire in the Reichstag in which he would find his end

Thank you! Out of curiosity do you happen to have the link to some of the other Oster TLs? To be honest I was trying to be as original as possible, but I guess that's hardly possible.

I'm afraid that TL is buried somewhere in my watched threads ... Will try to dig it out but won't make any promises, if memory serves me right the TL that I'm thinking of died more than a decade ago.