Leningrad Falls in German hands on Sept 15, 1941

ccdsah

Donor
No, primarily the ones in the Soviet sphere, and the majority of people targeted in such atrocities would in all probability be as innocent as anyone, however the democracies are going to care rather less when it's clear that Nazis don't have any civilized concepts of war.

Yes, but by the end of the war and especially 1-2 years after the war it became clear the US and West needed a stronger Germany to stem Soviet advance...
Heck Japanese treated Allied POWs cruel by comparison with what the Germans did and look what happened with Us occupation of Japan
 
True, but provided the war on the eastern front is still occuring, the immediate strategic reality will likely prevent such fever dreams from immediately occurring. Lenningrad's port facilities are likely to be put towards immediate use, and it will likely serve as a significant supply depot and transportation hub.

Likewise, despite the evident "inferiority" of Slavic civilization, the occupying Germans will be spending months if not years trying to loot every last piece of art from the city before its "destruction"
Marshal Voroshilov would have had most of Leningrad's important infrastructure demolished to deny the Germans any vital usage either industrially or living survivability and if the civilian leadership didn't evac the heritage of Russia from their museums...

The Communistic regime might have either hidden or blown up the valuable heritage of Russia from being captured in the hands of the German invaders.

Either out of spit or to prevent the Nazi from crowning their victory paeans of any important loot from Leningrad...
 
Yes, but by the end of the war and especially 1-2 years after the war it became clear the US and West needed a stronger Germany to stem Soviet advance...
Heck Japanese treated Allied POWs cruel by comparison with what the Germans did and look what happened with Us occupation of Japan

Sure, but in this case this morally compromises NATO if it promotes the Nazi officials responsible for the wholesale annihilation of a major center of European culture. I get that NATO depended on putting the sorry assclowns who lost WWII in charge of the army that would have started WWIII, but perhaps here people might be a little more rational about that. And you are aware that the US velvet glove approach with Japan and its officials played a role in at least the US problems in the Korean War and helps in no small part to explain why Japan selectively presents its WWII history at best?
 
Any battle for Lenningrad will be a brutal urban slugging match which will bleed out North to such an extent that it will have little to spare to support Typhoon. Defensive preperations in the city were for an extended urban battle, and with Zhukov in command nothing is going to be uncommitted towards the total defense of the city. The reality is that with a bit more luck and greater effort the city will fall, but at the same time its cost will be great and the Germans won't win anything of value as the city will be ruined in the ensuing battle.
 
From the first. The Soviets wanted to control Germany since the Leninist period, and they certainly did hold back given what they were actually quite able to do to the Gerrmans in 1945 but forebore from doing(like hanging anyone German with a connection to the SS or the Wehrmacht, as should have been done). The claim that the Soviets did not hold back is worth reflecting on given that the Nazis went into the USSR with the clear goal of annihilating Slavic civilization in its (as they saw it) last stronghold where the Soviets went into Germany with the rather more normal impulses of looting and plunder.

So 12,000,000 million germans who served during the war?

+ 9,000,000 boys and girls 6-22 in the hitlerjugend and other organisations who were heavilly connected to the SS?
 
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BlondieBC

Banned
Any battle for Lenningrad will be a brutal urban slugging match which will bleed out North to such an extent that it will have little to spare to support Typhoon. Defensive preperations in the city were for an extended urban battle, and with Zhukov in command nothing is going to be uncommitted towards the total defense of the city. The reality is that with a bit more luck and greater effort the city will fall, but at the same time its cost will be great and the Germans won't win anything of value as the city will be ruined in the ensuing battle.

You should reread the POD of this thread.
 
Any battle for Lenningrad will be a brutal urban slugging match which will bleed out North to such an extent that it will have little to spare to support Typhoon. Defensive preperations in the city were for an extended urban battle, and with Zhukov in command nothing is going to be uncommitted towards the total defense of the city. The reality is that with a bit more luck and greater effort the city will fall, but at the same time its cost will be great and the Germans won't win anything of value as the city will be ruined in the ensuing battle.
You should reread the POD of this thread.
In OTL, Zhukov did well enough holding Leningrad and keeping AGN from penetrating Northwards..

In this one, Stalin never got the German Communique that states that the Soviet city of Shlisel'burg had fallen into German hands and had penetrated deeper Northwards into Leningrad's outer suburb region...

Likewise... the unnerved and hapless Voroshilov didn't inform Stalin on his intentions to start demolitions to demolish all military fortifications and installations among with the important civilian installations to deny a fully functional city of Leningrad to the German invaders to succor German occupiers and be used against the Soviet Union as a base of operations...

again...
Since Stalin never received the Communique, Stalin was unaware of the dangers and threats encompassing Leningard and thus he never ordered Zhukov in this ATL to relieve Voroshilov and stop all attempts to demolish any military and important civilian installations unless STAVKA and Stalin had so authorized it...
So 12,000,000 million germans who served during the war?

+ 9,000,000,000 boys and girls 6-22 in the hitlerjugend and other organisations who were heavilly connected to the SS?
You have three 000s too many :)
 
again...
Since Stalin never received the Communique, Stalin was unaware of the dangers and threats encompassing Leningard and thus he never ordered Zhukov in this ATL to relieve Voroshilov and stop all attempts to demolish any military and important civilian installations unless STAVKA and Stalin had so authorized it...

You have three 000s too many :)


I count Treyarch as part of the SS's marketing Branch, and it's obvious that the space NAZI's have spread the movement across the stars.:p
 
In real life, nobody murders over 1 million people and can pretend it canbe covered up, especially in one of Europe's biggest and oldest cities. And when the Germans do that shit, Germans won't have a civilization afterward. It's one thing to kill Slavs when you haven't done anything too unforgiveable, but when you do that to a major European city, the Germans ITTL will be lucky to see the Bronze Age by the 24th Century.

Your argument is still not convincing. Utterly fails to convince.

Perhaps up to 30 million Soviets died during the war. Is 1 million more really going to push the Allies over the edge? Considering the actual death camps, roaming einsatzgruppen, mass starvation, and anti-partisan operations that helped cause that 30 million Soviet dead (not to mention all the casualties of the war) didn't push the Allies (or the Soviets) into the kind of hysterical shock you're suggesting, even if the Nazis carry out their mass crime, it's not going to lead to the scenario you suggest.

1 million dead is nothing, when even the LOW ESTIMATES of Soviet dead already cover 2 million civilian dead from forced labor, 4 million civilian dead from famine, and another 7 million civilian dead from intentional violence. So if those figures become 2.5 million, 4.5 million, and 7.5 million? It's statistics at that point.

It's simply going to be yet another great crime - rumored, but not verified during the war - that will be punished afterwards. The massacre will be remembered as one of the Nazi's greater crimes, but it's not going to push the Allies into wiping out the German people.
 

b12ox

Banned
I count Treyarch as part of the SS's marketing Branch, and it's obvious that the space NAZI's have spread the movement across the stars.:p
The Nazis land on the dark side of the mooon, which becomes a problem since they are out of sight and out of reach, and bat-crazy as ever planning to blow up the solar system. Doctor Goebbels promises Vernichtung throgh Spacewaffe from space Sportpalast. The allies speed up their joint space program. Meanwhile the clock is ticking...
 
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