What is the latest possible Point of Divergence when the Europeans could be screwed enough that they couldn't have spread their power to the extent that they did OTL. Could it be later than 1500? Or would it need to be earlier.
Considering one theory on the origin of the plague implicates the Mongols, it's not entirely impossible.You could have the Mongols go farther into Europe and have many cities refuse to pay tribute, Then maybe have a earlier black death as icing on the cake? Although in all likely hood that would be impossible, but many there would be some massive screwage.
Considering one theory on the origin of the plague implicates the Mongols, it's not entirely impossible.
Maybe if we added say, a decade to Ogedei's life, Europe would've fallen. He had already given permission for an invasion of all Europe, and they had already penetrated to Silesia, overran Poland and Hungary, and were preparing to siege Vienna.
Considering one theory on the origin of the plague implicates the Mongols, it's not entirely impossible.
Maybe if we added say, a decade to Ogedei's life, Europe would've fallen. He had already given permission for an invasion of all Europe, and they had already penetrated to Silesia, overran Poland and Hungary, and were preparing to siege Vienna.
Which leaves half of Central and all of Western and Southern Europe to conquer with Batu and his kin at odds, Subotai getting no younger, and so on.
Nevermind that medieval Germany is probably some of the worst terrain on the planet for Mongol-style warfare.
I'm very skeptical that the Mongols could've conquered much beyond Hungary and Poland, although the possibility of turning those two into vassals like the Russian principalities is certainly feasible. The terrain is very poorly suited for large cavalry armies, and no, the Mongols are not magically immune to logistical overstretch. South China and Persia were close to the centers of Mongol power. Germany is literally on the other side of the planet.
Yes, no doubt the jungles of South China, or mountains of Tibet and Nepal were far better cavalry terrain than the landscape of Germany.Nevermind that medieval Germany is probably some of the worst terrain on the planet for Mongol-style warfare.
I'm very skeptical that the Mongols could've conquered much beyond Hungary and Poland, although the possibility of turning those two into vassals like the Russian principalities is certainly feasible. The terrain is very poorly suited for large cavalry armies, and no, the Mongols are not magically immune to logistical overstretch. South China and Persia were close to the centers of Mongol power. Germany is literally on the other side of the planet.
Yes, no doubt the jungles of South China, or mountains of Tibet and Nepal were far better cavalry terrain than the landscape of Germany.
And there were no "centers of Mongol power". Where Mongol Army went, there was its center. That's the point of their warfare and success.
And I'm sure the Mongols didn't take advantage of having the teeming masses of north China, aka the very definition of cannon fodder, right next door, in conquering those regions.
Yeah. I'm sure the Mongols could wreak merry havoc further than Austria, if they tried, but not the long term damage or occupation necessary for a Mongol invasion to have any influence on "Europe" rising.
If anything, a Mongol smashing through the HRE might be better for Germany as a power as the princes recognize that they have to stand together or else.
Not a given, but a not-fake possibility either.
Perhaps the Mongols could also introduce the Black Plague at this point? Even without a permanent conquest of Germany the Mongols could do serious damage to the countryside and hit them with another "punishment from God."
Much like South China, the Mongols taking Central/Western Europe would rely more than a bit on locally recruited levies and turncoats,
As to the original question? I agree that the Mongols _not_ wrecking so much of Eurasia would keep Europe in a weaker relative position.